3-5-2 formation this season for United?

I hope not. Boring formation and ultimately leaves us one attacker short. No room for all of Pogba/Bruno/Rash/Martial/Greenwood in this. Our strongest point right now is going forward with those 5, we need to maximize that.
 
A switch in formation boosted Chelsea's form in 2016/17.

Man Utd have 3 forwards who are probably all better in central positions. Play Rashford/Martial up top with Greenwood as a sub.

And shore up the defence with an extra CB.

It's all so obvious.
 
If we don't make any signings before our next game then...

---------henderson
bailly-maguire-shaw
----------------matic
Williams-beek-pogba-fred
-------------Fernandes
---‐-----------martial

I wouldn't play rashford at the moment, he is really off the boil and would trust Fernandes to be more of a threat playing as a second striker behind martial.

Bailly is not great but the lindelof and Maguire partnership is god awful and gets constantly ripped and pulled apart when opposition teams counter attack.

William's on the right because I have no faith in bissaka on the ball and think he was an awful signing for a club like united.

having an actual midfield 3 actually protects matic far better and allows pogba to play a bit further forward compared to when he has to play as some type of deep lying play maker when ole picks his favourite 4231 formation.

Henderson over de gea because whilst de gea does have the experience and is maybe better at saving shot, he is unfortunately god awful with his feet and way to often puts our defence under huge pressure with no time to organise with his lack of ability to find a united player when he passes the ball out.
 
1st half of last season:

Rashford--Martial--James
Pereira
Fred----McTominay
Shaw--Maguire--Lindelof--AWB
DDG​

Strengths: our pace on the counterattack
Weaknesses: no width, susceptible to high pressing, inability to break down deep teams through the middle
Tactics most often used against us: keep it narrow, play a deepline, and hit us on the break

Post-Bruno pre-lockdown

Rashford--Martial--Greenwood
Bruno
Fred----McTominay
Shaw--Maguire--Lindelof--AWB
DDG​

Strengths: our pace on the counterattack, Bruno's quick passing to breakdown deep teams through the middle
Weaknesses: no width, susceptible to high pressing
Tactics most often used against us: keep it narrow, play a deepline, press AWB and hit us on the break

Post-lockdown

Rashford--Martial--Greenwood
Bruno
Matic----Pogba
Shaw--Maguire--Lindelof--AWB
DDG​

Strengths: our pace on the counterattack, Bruno's quick passing to breakdown deep teams
Weaknesses: no width, extremely susceptible to high pressing
Tactics most often used against us: keep it narrow, play a deepline, press AWB and Pogba, and hit us on the break

How do you fix it?

Imo,

1. Set up a backline/midfield that can make easy but unpredictable transitions out from defence
2. Give our players who lack press-resistance more options when they're on the ball
3. Try and create more width
4. Retain Bruno's central importance
5. Retain our pace in attack

So...
Rashford--Martial
Pogba---Bruno---VdB
(Telles)-------------------------------Williams
Shaw----Maguire---McT
DDG​

Shaw and McTominay aren't natural centrebacks, but both have played in back 3s before so there is some precedent.

If we set up like Wilder's Sheffield United do with their overlapping centrebacks, we should be able to solve the problem of getting pressed to death. Both are decent passers, both are good at carrying the ball, both are aggressive defenders who are good one-on-one, both have the body-strength to avoid getting pushed easily off the ball. What they'll lack in old-school positional discipline, they'll hopefully be able to make up for in numbers.

The midfield gets shored up with extra creativity. Yes, we lose one attacker. But I think we gain more from having all our best midfielders on the pitch at the same time.

The problem is that it puts a lot of responsibility on the LWB and RWB. That's the thing that worries me even more than the back 3.

Our best performances last season against the likes of City and Chelsea all came with a back 3, so it's neither an alien concept nor an unworkable one.

A second choice lineup might be:

Greenwood--Ighalo
Fred---Matic---Lingard
James-------------------------------Laird
Mengi----Lindelof---AWB
Henderson​

So there should be options off the bench (albeit lacking in the wingback positions again).

Again, I recognise it's not perfect. But I think there's enough from our recent history to suggest that a 3-5-2 is a formation that might get the best out of the players.
 
You need ofensive fullbacks otherwise we would just be playing with 5 at the back. Neither Shaw nor AWB have the offensive attributes required to properly attack in a back 4, let alone a back 5. I think that formation would only make us look worse.
 
You canp play 3 4 3 like ajax did back in the day, with a midfield diamond, you dont need fullbacks.
 
Fresh system in a 4-4-2 Diamond. Problem is I’m not convinced we’ve got the calibre of coach currently at the club to adopt to this modern style of football (sorry Ole). We would also need two full backs in the style of Robertson and TAA who are more important to LFC with their attacking assets than defensively. The system below would need 3 new signings and Sancho as the 4th signing giving us 4 forwards.

Rashford/Sancho Martial/Greenwood

Pogba

Fernandes VDB

Matic

New LB Maguire New CB New RB

GK
 
After yesterday I don't see the argument that "the 3-5-2 formation requires attacking fullbacks" as a very valid one, considering these awful circumstances. The 4-2-3-1 currently applied requires better wingers and attacking fullbacks. Looking at our midfield set-up, don't you think that playing Matic, Pogba, VDB and Fernandes (with Fred and McSauce rotating) would be playing to our strengths? Of course I wouldn't know until I saw it, but we have been quite successful using 3 at the back last season, when the fullback setup was the exact same as it is now (sadly). Telles would make some much sense then as well, but I have zero faith in Woody and Glazers these days.

All that said, I realize how pointless my post is when I think about how disgustingly awful Pobga and Bruno were yesterday...
 
If we can't get Sancho I hope instead of getting someone like Sarr we switch to 352 and get some explosive wingbacks. Telles on the left and go and get an attacking right wing back too.

That way I think we could play Pogba VDB n Bruno all in same team too.

Mason Rashford n Martial competing for the 2 striker slots.

It might be the solution to our issues if we can't get Sancho.
 
I was questioning why we are after a LB like Telles or Reguilon but if we did shift to a 352 or 343 depending on signings it would make sense.

I just wonder if say we get Sancho would Ole really drop Rashford and play Sancho behind Martial or would he maybe not play with a DM and just go full throttle and stick Pogba and Fernandes central and not play with a Dm.

DDG
Lindelof Maguire Shaw
bissaka/Lai——Pogba—Bruno—-Telles/williams
Sancho-Martial-Rashford
​
That’s a proper FIFA muppets dream, personally think we would need a DM so sacrificing Rashford to put Matic or something in or if we don’t get Sancho then it’s just two up top Martial and Rashford.

DDG
Lindelof Maguire Shaw
Bissaka/Laird———Fred/Matic——-Williams/Telles
Pogba————--Bruno
Martial-Rashy​
 
Signing Telles is just means he will provide us the width so player like Rashford & Greenwood can come inside more while the full backs cover the width. IMO the 4231 is still ideal set up. Attacking full back will make it more effective and let our front three to be in the box more often.

DDG
Williams - CB - Maguire - Telles
Pogba/Donny - Fred/Matic
Greenwood - Bruno - Rashford
Martial

Going Forward:

DDG
CB - Fred/Matic - Maguire
Pogba/Donny - Bruno
Williams - Greenwood - Martial - Rashford - Telles​
 
Andersons Dietician said:
I was questioning why we are after a LB like Telles or Reguilon but if we did shift to a 352 or 343 depending on signings it would make sense.
Click to expand...

Because our first choice LB is injury prone player and we need squad depth.
 
roonster09 said:
Because our first choice LB is injury prone player and we need squad depth.
Click to expand...
I’m no fan of Williams but he’s reportedly highly regarded as a LB prospect even with not being left footed so it just seems weird to me. Especially with the way we play. I just don’t see how if we continue in the same shape or try to push our fullbacks higher up without protection for Maguire and that how it’ll work.

pogba and Bruno turn over the ball a lot and so far this season I know it’s early doors but it does look like we’ve asked Shaw and Bissaka to push more and attack. Unfortunately, with Pogba and Bruno taking so many risks with the ball we lose possesion a lot and the space behind Shaw and Bissaka gets exploited which I see only getting worse if we have very attacking fullbacks.
 
Andersons Dietician said:
I’m no fan of Williams but he’s reportedly highly regarded as a LB prospect even with not being left footed so it just seems weird to me. Especially with the way we play. I just don’t see how if we continue in the same shape or try to push our fullbacks higher up without protection for Maguire and that how it’ll work.

pogba and Bruno turn over the ball a lot and so far this season I know it’s early doors but it does look like we’ve asked Shaw and Bissaka to push more and attack. Unfortunately, with Pogba and Bruno taking so many risks with the ball we lose possesion a lot and the space behind Shaw and Bissaka gets exploited which I see only getting worse if we have very attacking fullbacks.
Click to expand...

Williams struggled after the restart and our build up was poor with Williams struggling and always ending up cutting in.

Makes sense to add left footed LB especially with Shaw injury problems and this season Insane schedule.
 
With the addition of Telles this has now become an absolute no-brainer. A 3 CB formation completely transformed Chelsea in 2016/17 after a tough start.

It would also allow Martial & Rashford to play more centrally. Greenwood & Cavani as backup.
 


Telles should help pressing forward from the low block. Don't know who should play the holding role though. We desperately need an intelligent, mobile holding midfielder.
 
Having watched Southgate move back to three at the back, we (England) have looked a lot more solid.

With United conceding so much early on in the season, I feel moving to a back will solidify us a bit more and allow our defenders to gain a bit of confidence.

I would experiment with a 352 and 343. Guess it depends on the opposition

Martial
Rashford Greenwood
Telles Matic Fernandes James
Shaw Maguire Wan-Bissaka
De Gea

OR

Rashford Martial
Telles Pogba Fernandes James
Matic
Shaw Maguire Wan-Bissaka
De Gea​
 
We played with back four last season in majority of the games and we weren't as bad as recently defensively. Shield them with better double pivot who are willing to press, cover ground, winning 2nd ball & chase runners, our defense will also show improvement. No defense will come good if you try to push up with Matic & Pogba as your protection. Our defense problem last season was that we are sucks in handling crossings (conceded lot from crossing & set pieces), other than that it wasn't too bad as 3rd best in the league when they actually had proper protection from midfield.
 
De Gea
Bailly -------- Lindelöf ------- Tuanzebe
Williams ------------------------------------------------ Telles
v. De Beek ---------------Fred
Bruno
Greenwoon ---------------- Martial​
 
eltigreFalcao said:
De Gea
Bailly -------- Lindelöf ------- Tuanzebe
Williams ------------------------------------------------ Telles
v. De Beek ---------------Fred
Bruno
Greenwoon ---------------- Martial​
Click to expand...

I would agree with the formation and lineup. We really are fecked though if that’s our back 3, but Maguire can’t be included.

AWB is not suited to wing back and has been terrible since the restart anyway. It’s 2 from 4 for the two striker spots, on current form I would probably pick Rashford ahead of Martial but there’s not much in it.
 
eltigreFalcao said:
De Gea
Bailly -------- Lindelöf ------- Tuanzebe
Williams ------------------------------------------------ Telles
v. De Beek ---------------Fred
Bruno
Greenwoon ---------------- Martial​
Click to expand...

The horror, wouldn't even get in the top 6 if this is the main lineup.
 
How many top teams that play three at the back are actually playing with three central defenders. Seems like most will drop a full back or midfielder into those three, which makes sense to me. With a full back you’d expect more pace in the back line, a midfielder allows better ball playing from the back.
 
352 at this point would just scream ‘we’re fecked’ to me.
 
Dan_F said:
How many top teams that play three at the back are actually playing with three central defenders. Seems like most will drop a full back or midfielder into those three, which makes sense to me. With a full back you’d expect more pace in the back line, a midfielder allows better ball playing from the back.
Click to expand...

Who are these top teams that play three at back? If you stretch that definition only Inter play with three at the back and they have three CBs, Juventus did it and they also had three CBs in Barzagli, Bonucci and Chiellini. The other top teams don't play with a back three because it's not a good idea.
 
Castia said:
352 at this point would just scream ‘we’re fecked’ to me.
Click to expand...

We've conceded 11 goals in 3 league games and it really should be about 16 goals in reality. How is that not worse?

We all want the team to play 'the united way' but when you're not playing well, defending badly and lacking confidence you have to solidify the defence. You have to protect it. If we continue as we have been doing we're going to carry on losing games and looking vulnerable.
 
eltigreFalcao said:
De Gea
Bailly -------- Lindelöf ------- Tuanzebe
Williams ------------------------------------------------ Telles
v. De Beek ---------------Fred
Bruno
Greenwoon ---------------- Martial​
Click to expand...
Just don't like it. 532 works well when you've got a target man. Cavani can play that role but I think our best players like the ball to feet, and, somehow the 532 just doesn't seem to work for us. I see us spending much of time on the ball passing it along that back 5 and midfield two struggling to get the ball forward. And then lacking numbers when we move forward. Also Ole isn't reknown for it either.
 
No matter how they arranged the deck chairs, the Titanic was doomed to sink. We have too many bad players and a bad coach and we are going to struggle to make top 6 no matter what formation / selection we go for.
 
Nou_Camp99 said:
We've conceded 11 goals in 3 league games and it really should be about 16 goals in reality. How is that not worse?

We all want the team to play 'the united way' but when you're not playing well, defending badly and lacking confidence you have to solidify the defence. You have to protect it. If we continue as we have been doing we're going to carry on losing games and looking vulnerable.
Click to expand...

Adding a defender who is a replacement level player won't improve your defense and back threes aren't inherently more solid than back fours. If anything the most balanced defensive system in football is the flat 442/4411 but even then it's all about coaching and drilling your team properly.

Edit: Also you should never pick a set up based on your weaknesses because you are not going to turn it into a strength, the key is to always set up for your strength.
 
JPRouve said:
Adding a defender who is a replacement level player won't improve your defense and back threes aren't inherently more solid than back fours. If anything the most balanced defensive system in football is the flat 442/4411 but even then it's all about coaching and drilling your team properly.

Edit: Also you should never pick a set up based on your weaknesses because you are not going to turn it into a strength, the key is to always set up for your strength.
Click to expand...

We went to 352 in the big games a lot last season and had great success with it so what you've just said is utter nonsense I'm afraid.
 
westmeath said:
I would agree with the formation and lineup. We really are fecked though if that’s our back 3, but Maguire can’t be included.

AWB is not suited to wing back and has been terrible since the restart anyway. It’s 2 from 4 for the two striker spots, on current form I would probably pick Rashford ahead of Martial but there’s not much in it.
Click to expand...

It's nonsense giving up on Maguire already. We've had a rough start to the season, no denying that.

Preferring Bailly over Maguire is shocking. Maguires performance versus Tottenham is Baillys level every other game or so.

Give the team some time to settle in this season before excluding players.
 
I’m warming to the idea

GK (de Gea / Henderson, don’t mind)
CB Lindelof
CB Maguire
CB Bailly
LWB Telles
RWB ???
CM Fred
CM Pogba
CM Bruno
CF Rashford (Martial when he’s back)
CF Cavani

I think those three CBs would work well together, but I’d play Shaw over Lindelof in the easier games as he offers more on the ball.

RWB is the main sticking point. I don’t think AWB can do it, even if his surname has the right initials. Could he work as an RCB?

Pogba would hopefully offer much more playing in this system, with Fred being the legs. He and Bruno both have plenty of room for improvement, VDB can come in for them if they continue struggling.

The 4 attackers (I’m not including Ighalo) can rotate, just like they did in 1999. On paper, Martial Rashford, Greenwood, Cavani is better than Cole, Yorke,, Sheringham, Solskjær.
 
Nou_Camp99 said:
We went to 352 in the big games a lot last season and had great success with it so what you've just said is utter nonsense I'm afraid.
Click to expand...

We didn't had great success, we had the same win rate(55%) and it includes a game against Tranmere and a second leg cup game where we failed to win the tie. It did not improve our defense or our ability to score goals.
 
JPRouve said:
We didn't had great success, we had the same win rate(55%) and it includes a game against Tranmere and a second leg cup game where we failed to win the tie. It did not improve our defense or our ability to score goals.
Click to expand...

We drew at home to liverpool 1-1 and nearly won it. We beat city 2-1 away, 1-0 away (cup) and 2-0 at home playing it. How is that not improving? If we had approached those games with the 4231 I guarantee you we don't do as well.

I'm not advocating we go to 352 forever. But id 110% switch for the next 6 weeks if I were Ole or he might be out of a job.
 
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