3-3-1-3

Originally posted by giggzy:
<strong>

sigh.

i agree..but based on what i've seen, we need an extra dimension up front...


</strong><hr></blockquote>


I agree with that. But not that buying a big name will solve the problem.

And it's not the main priority.
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As the role he plays for Argentina seems to be the only role that Veron can perform to his 28 million pound potential then it would seem that Fergie faces a stark choice between exactly this formation (with all the displacement and purchases this entails) and selling Veron.

Fergie must surely have thought that Veron was capable of adapting to the United way.
 
3-3-1-3 / 3-5-2 are just not United. Don't forget, we are Manchester United not Argentina. 4-4-2 always has and always will be our most effective formation, and we shouldn't fiddle around with that to suit one player's needs.
 
Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>
No way!! We scored enough goals to win the league last year. Draws against the top teams would have done it I think.

Imo, we need a strong unit at the back, protected by a well organised midfield who can create for the front two.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You know you look at it the wrong way. This isnt directed at just you by the way.

Yes the defence is messed up but you need to look at how good a team is, not just the stats.

We cannot go out for a draw everytime we place Liverpool - that would make me sick. When strengthening your team you cant look at results, only performances. Results depend too much on luck and circumstance. You cant say we almost beat Liverpool and won the league - our midfield is fine - because it isnt.

We lost to the big teams because they controlled the games, you lose control - you lose points. It doesnt matter WHO your defence is, you could have the incredible Hulk. If you dont control that game, your team will struggle.

3-3-1-3 would not work for us. Our midfield does not suit it.

3-5-2 would be better. But still not ideal. Alot of weakness down the flanks. But its essential that we keep 2 up front because thats the only way for us to avoid getting crowded out and losing the ball instantly.

Barthez
Thuram-Ayala-Silvestre
Keane
Beckham - Scholes - Veron - Giggs

RVN - OGS


But Ferie is still building his team around 4-4-2 and the players cant perform in another system - quite pathetic compared to some other teams who switch all the time.
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Originally posted by ShAoLiN_ChRoNiC:
<strong>

You know you look at it the wrong way. This isnt directed at just you by the way.

Yes the defence is messed up but you need to look at how good a team is, not just the stats.

We cannot go out for a draw everytime we place Liverpool - that would make me sick. When strengthening your team you cant look at results, only performances. Results depend too much on luck and circumstance. You cant say we almost beat Liverpool and won the league - our midfield is fine - because it isnt.

We lost to the big teams because they controlled the games, you lose control - you lose points. It doesnt matter WHO your defence is, you could have the incredible Hulk. If you dont control that game, your team will struggle.

3-3-1-3 would not work for us. Our midfield does not suit it.

3-5-2 would be better. But still not ideal. Alot of weakness down the flanks. But its essential that we keep 2 up front because thats the only way for us to avoid getting crowded out and losing the ball instantly.

Barthez
Thuram-Ayala-Silvestre
Keane
Beckham - Scholes - Veron - Giggs

RVN - OGS


But Ferie is still building his team around 4-4-2 and the players cant perform in another system - quite pathetic compared to some other teams who switch all the time.</strong><hr></blockquote>


I said we need a midfield that is disciplined and can protect the back four as well as creating for the front two. What's wrong with that.

And I wasn't suggesting we should play for a draw against anyone. But you have to be realistic, and accept that in some games, it isn't going to go for you, and in that event, you can get away with it if you don't concede a goal. A draw is better than a defeat.

No side wins every game. The objective should be to win as many as possible, and draw the rest.
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I agree, but when you dont beat any big teams regularly - you have problems. Agree?

There are people who say that we are fine because we almost won the league. We're not because we're declining and the performances are not winning games.

Thats the dangerous mentality IMO, ignoring problems and filing them in the "didnt go our way on the day" cabinet. Very very worrying because I see problems that will take alot of fixing and will not go away with luck or a new dawn.

Aside from that you're right. The team has problems all the way through.
 
Originally posted by ShAoLiN_ChRoNiC:
<strong>I agree, but when you dont beat any big teams regularly - you have problems. Agree?

</strong><hr></blockquote>


Of course. But this season was actually a lot better than last season in that respect. We lost the league because we didn't beat the lower teams. And who knows what would have happened against Liverpool at OT if Fergie hadn't decided to change what was a winning formation - why go more defensive at home???
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Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>


I said we need a midfield that is disciplined and can protect the back four as well as creating for the front two. What's wrong with that.

</strong><hr></blockquote>


i don't get it... why are you just laying blame on the midfield??????


the whole teams been very indisciplined in their defensive duties...hence we've looked shakey when we've defended as a COLLECTIVE especially when we've been countered... however, if we do become more 'disciplined' that'll mean players will have to be more defensive minded thus we'll score less goals..... OR when you mean 'disciplined' do you mean players that stay in their respective postions.. ie wingers staying out wide??? if the latters the case, then you'll know its easy to mark them out of a game especially in a 4-4-2 formation..hence the reason why Fergie developed the 4-5-1 formation to combate this problem...

i like the way we play... all we need is a defender and striker(one with a different dimension) IMO.
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Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>

And I wasn't suggesting we should play for a draw against anyone. But you have to be realistic, and accept that in some games, it isn't going to go for you, .</strong><hr></blockquote>


thats true..sometimes things just don't go for you.. however is it a coincidence that we've failed to score against sides that played with defensive styles/formations at OT??? liverpool(played with three rows of defenders) Arsenal(very similar), Middlesboro and Bayern(in the past) have beaten us at home..and all more importantly, have shut us out of the game..it seems strange that we've look incapable of scoring against these sides..


...ironically, all these teams played with the same style at OT.


we need to address this problem....
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Originally posted by giggzy:
<strong>


i don't get it... why are you just laying blame on the midfield??????


</strong><hr></blockquote>


I'm not. That's not what I mean at all. I think our midfield is the best anywhere, and I'm talking generally about any well constructed team. A strong defence and a midfield in control of the game will create chances for strikers.

Unfortunately, games are generally lost because the defence lets in a goal or two, and/or the midfield doesn't control the game.

It's a team thing, and everyone has to do their bit - but unfortunately, when the blame is dealt out, the strikers can get away with more. Obviously, a striker is going to get criticised if he misses one or two glaring sitters. But a striker can get into a scoring position, but not get the ball......so who gets the blame? Usually the provider.

How many times do you hear people saying that any decent striker should be able to score with a midfield like ours - and I've always maintained that a lot of our success has been down to the midfield.

I'm not saying we don't need something different in attack. Just that he might not be any more capable of unlocking a defence than we thought JSV was going to be. (And still might eventually).
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Personally, I have to say 4-4-2 is the only way to play.

Our squad, not just our team is based on it, and it would take to many years to change the way we play.

IMO it is all to do with the way we play the 4-4-2
If we get another striker with the ability to play in the 'hole' and have him switch from time to time with Scholes or Seba that would be ideal.
But I also do think we need to buy a striker with real pace (in the sense of acceleration) just to complete our forward line of options.

Seba will adjust to the prem, but I think he needs to see more of the ball when Keano is playing. He seems to play better when this is the case. It is probably this rather than the position he is asked to play, although he really cant play out wide. So dont change the formation for him.
 
Originally posted by Fitzcarraldo:
<strong>As the role he plays for Argentina seems to be the only role that Veron can perform to his 28 million pound potential then it would seem that Fergie faces a stark choice between exactly this formation (with all the displacement and purchases this entails) and selling Veron.

Fergie must surely have thought that Veron was capable of adapting to the United way.</strong><hr></blockquote>
My point entirely.
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We nedd to get the best out of Scholes and Becks. And both of them olay best in a central position. The sytem has little to do with Veron. Just to use our five classy midfielders to the best of their abiltiies and to stop having Silvestre exposed on the wing.
 
---------------------Barthez------------------

-------Ayala---------Blanc------------Thuruam--


--------------------Keane-----------------------
--------Beckham---------------Silvestre-----------

----------------Veron (Scholes)------------------

-----------Rivaldo(Forlan)---------Giggs----------------------------Ruud(Ole)---------------------


With this formation Thommo, tell me wether Silvestre's famous defensive erorrs would cost us dear, or wether the position Scholes plays best in is not the one mentioned above? <img src="graemlins/smirk.gif" border="0" alt="[Smirk]" />
 
Silvestre could play right midfield, but why not have someone who is really good at right midfield like, say, Giggs, rather than finding somewhere else to put silvestre just because he's a liability in defense. And yes, scholes veron do play well in that position, but which one? And wouldn't that formation leave us severely lacking width, and be more vulnerable to attacks by wingers such as Pires? And Rivaldo isn't coming btw.
 
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> @ kemo

Come on man, stop playing Championship Manager, that formation would not work and does not use our players to the best of their potential.

Silvestre cannot play winger, he wants to be CB for crying out loud! He is a defender and our best LB, we have one of the best LWs in the world - isnt your logic a little twisted? Our mid would be devastated with that diamond IMO.

3-3-1-3 wont work but 4-3-1-2 might. Fergie almost got it right with 4-5-1 but instead of removing a striker for Veron he should remove a midfielder.

2 up front is essential. I dont care what else we play, without 2 strikers (1 dropping back is ok too) we falter.

-------------Barthez
g.Nev----Thuram---Blanc----Silvestre
----Beckham---Keane---Scholes/Giggs
--------Veron/Giggs/Scholes

+ 2 strikers to hold the ball and be available for passes. Strikers might get pissed with mids giving no service but its just as bad when no one is there to recieve it.
 
-----------------Barthez-------------------------

-G. Nev.-----Thuram-------Ayala------Silvestre---

-Becks--------Veron-------Keane-------Giggs------

--------------------------Di Canio---------------
--------------RVN--------------------------------
 
Think about it with aAyala, Thuram an Blanc palying deep and keane , Silvetsre and Becks covering the remaining space at the back how would a man like Pires get through. Coz if you exposed Silvestre, thruam and Co could always cover.
 
ShAoLiN_ChRoNiC
First Team Player
Member # 3756
posted 27-05-2002 21:34
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@ kemo
Come on man, stop playing Championship Manager, that formation would not work and does not use our players to the best of their potential.

Silvestre cannot play winger, he wants to be CB for crying out loud! He is a defender and our best LB, we have one of the best LWs in the world - isnt your logic a little twisted? Our mid would be devastated with that diamond IMO.

3-3-1-3 wont work but 4-3-1-2 might. Fergie almost got it right with 4-5-1 but instead of removing a striker for Veron he should remove a midfielder.

2 up front is essential. I dont care what else we play, without 2 strikers (1 dropping back is ok too) we falter.

-------------Barthez
g.Nev----Thuram---Blanc----Silvestre
----Beckham---Keane---Scholes/Giggs
--------Veron/Giggs/Scholes

+ 2 strikers to hold the ball and be available for passes. Strikers might get pissed with mids giving no service but its just as bad when no one is there to recieve it<hr></blockquote>
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<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />

You are unserious! Two upfront hasn't gotten us anywhere since we won the treble and it won't now! Now look at my formation again:

-----------------Barthez--------------------------

-----Ayala-------Blanc--------Tthuram-------------

-----------------Keane----------------------------

---------Beckham---------Silvetre-----------------

------------------Veron(Scholes-------------------


---Rivaldo(Forlan)---------------------Giggs------

--------------------Ruud(Ole)---------------------
with such a formation:
1)Silvestre will never get exposed. And where he will be playing in defensive terms would be a central defensive role which he craves and is (believe it or not) more comfortable in.
2) If Veron loses the ball, like against Midlesboro it will never cost us dear.

3) Rivaldo/Forlan and Giggs
can provide better width than we've had since the departure of Kanckchelskis. They can also in such a formation be two extra strikers when the rest of our midfield has the ball. Trust me no one would want to face a strike force of those two with Van Nistelrooy.
4) Most importantly, Becks may be the world's best crosser but he is wasted in a wing position. Becks is most effective when in the centar. their he can changed thing, direct the flow and ebb of attack from defence and can be a bigger threat from deep. When Kanchelkis was around who could forget Becks goals from deep central positions?
He would be our Zidane. And defensively with five at the back we would be more solid.
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Originally posted by kemo:
<strong>

You are unserious! Two upfront hasn't gotten us anywhere since we won the treble </strong><hr></blockquote>


At least we won championships though.

Tell you what - e-mail your winning formation to SAF. You might be the missing link.
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Originally posted by kemo:
<strong>

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />

You are unserious! Two upfront hasn't gotten us anywhere since we won the treble and it won't now!</strong><hr></blockquote>

er...you're laughing at the thought of playing 2 up front? You might prefer something else but to call it "ha ha ha..UNSERIOUS" is just plain weird.

Have you noticed how few teams play your formation kemo? Dont think you're some sort of tactical genius that has somehow outwitted every manager alive and discovered the perfect formation.

Get your act together, that formation isnt even good on paper but it was built on some decent ideas,just that you fail to see some gaps. Its a better situation to be in than those who know nothing.

Football is a much more dynamic and complex game than "no one could handle those 3 up front".

Much more complicated than that kemo. I wont go into it any further though.
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Gaps seem obvious unless the system is really trid out. Wath argentina and you will see what i;m taliking about. that system trumped the South american qualifierss.
 
It's clear that we're all making varying formations not only to accomodate Veron but to make sure that Scholes also has a place in the team! It's clear that it's either Veron or Scholes. (That's if asshole Veron decides to stay!)
Who would cut it?? <img src="graemlins/houllier.gif" border="0" alt="[Houllier]" />
 
Scholes and Veron play best in the same position so we would like to see the system suit them both get it?
 
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