If there are debates, and I am starting to be pretty confident there will not be (Trump will absolutely bail or make outrageous demands), it will be Trump spewing unhinged ramblings and Biden staring at the camera not able to get a word in.
2024 U.S. Elections | Trump wins
- Thread starter Raoul
- Start date
I think you are right. Can you imagine a single voter watching a 2024 Trump/Biden debate, and making a choice based on their debate performances? The thought it kind of hilarious.
Everyone is a single issue voter when it's something that touches them deeply. People need to understand this and not be condescending. I know a transgender woman who hates left wing economic policies and all her life she voted for a far-left party because they're the only ones taking about her civil rights.
Telling a muslim with palestinian roots to vote for a guy supporting genocide now because the other guy will be somehow worse (I would like to now what could actually be worse than what's happening now) is a pretty weak argument.
Telling a muslim with palestinian roots to vote for a guy supporting genocide now because the other guy will be somehow worse (I would like to now what could actually be worse than what's happening now) is a pretty weak argument.
I've asked this before and no one answered.
If you are a single issue voter on this topic what gives you any confidence that things will improve with Trump?
Nothing, but the thing is when you see genocide happen in front of your eyes, it's hard to imagine how it can get worse. And by voting for the guy supporting it it's a big ask.
Just look into any history book at any other genocide committed in the past 100 years and you will have an idea how things could become worse yet. Things are horrible now, don't get me wrong, everyone agrees. But thinking this is the worst possible is naive at best.
I understand abstaining for moral reasons. But to actually hope Trump wins is next level crazy to me if anyone actually really cares for these poor people.
Voting for biden would mean to give political support to what's happening now. Some people can't sleep well at night with that on their conscience. I'm glad I'm not an american because it's a very difficult decision and what's next level crazy for me is people making it sound like it's the most obvious choice ever. I would argue these are the people that don't really care much for palestine.
Or it's the people that are smart enough to recognise that the situation in Gaza would have been the same (or worse) with Trump at the helm, and it will not improve if Trump is elected. Many other things will be worse, however.
People can vote their conscience as they like, but don't draw the conclusion that wanting Biden re-elected over Trump also means not caring about the genocide in Gaza. It's really fecking dumb.
Right, some voters are smart and others are dumb...
If you vote for biden you're voting for what's happening in gaza, it's hard to reconcile that with caring about palestinians. If that's an easy decision for some, more power to them. I understand perfectly well those who want no part in it.
It's a textbook example of cutting your nose to spite your face.
Not only it won't change anything but it will make it even worse, for the Palestinians and themselves.
Again, this would make some sort of sense if you'd actually believe anything improves under:
I can only repeat myself. If you vote for biden you're voting for what's happening in gaza. I perfectly understand how that might be a red line for many. It would probably be for me, so I'm glad I don't have to make that choice.
Voting in the lesser of two evils might be cool if we're talking about taxes or whatever. When it's genocide we're talking about, I'm not sure it applies.
Voting the lesser of two evils when it's a matter of life and death is less valid than when it's taxes!? Sorry I can't follow your logic at all.
The poster is talking about voting for 'the lesser of two evils' as the equivalent of having no red lines.
It is easy to have no red lines when you're just talking about policy.
But the opposite argument is made here literally all the time: that if you don't vote for Biden no matter what, it's because you don't care about whoever Trump is going to punish.
Yes, because I can accept higher taxes, it may suck, but if it's the price to pay for other things I like about the candidate, I'll do it.
Genocide it's much harder to accept, for some it's unacceptable. Even if the candidate has other stuff I like, it might be a red line for me, so feck those other things.
It's pretty basic logic, we do it every day regarding work or relationships or whatever. We never get the perfect deal, but some things are just unacceptable.
But the basis of that argument is that the Gaza situation would not be better under Trump. There would be a real risk of Israel getting even bolder under him, in my opinion. So you would likely give up on progress on a number of important topics in exchange for nothing.
That being said, I don't pretend to understand what Muslim Americans might be thinking of this, and if they decide to not vote for Biden because of Gaza then so be it - I think it would be a mistake, but that's how it is. But I will object to the idea that advocating for a Biden vote is the same as not caring about the genocide in Gaza.
Fair enough, I went too far.
But voting for biden is accepting genocide in gaza, or do you also disagree with that?
Let’s just say there’s little difference between Trump and Biden on Gaza.
Then what are the differences; Trump will try again to ban Muslims from coming to the US. I wouldn’t be surprised to see him start on deportations of non citizen Muslims currently here.
There’s no bottom to trumps actions.
Anyone who believes they’re both the same is
Then what are the differences; Trump will try again to ban Muslims from coming to the US. I wouldn’t be surprised to see him start on deportations of non citizen Muslims currently here.
There’s no bottom to trumps actions.
Anyone who believes they’re both the same is
We all make those choices when we vote.
If you reduce the argument that way then you have to be prepared to have your choice reduced that way too.
Vote trump and you don't care about Ukrainian children for example.
I guess it's easier to debate strawmen.Anyone who believes they’re both the same is
I think that is better, but it ignores that 95% of the people who will be voting either don't care or have no idea of what is going on. Leaving aside the lack of awareness as the media is not exactly covering themselves in impartial glory with their reporting of the plight of Palestinians, the US electorate is insanely insular, and it will be domestic policies that drive the vote.
It's not a very meaningful question. The Israel/Gaza war will be over by the time the elections happen. There will not be a "worse war" to be waged under Trump and no "better war" to be waged in Biden's second term.
The way I view the 2024 Presidential Election is that it won't impact the situation in Gaza in any meaningful way. If it does, it will be for the worse for the Palestinians if Trump wins. Essentially I would take a forward looking approach in a "what would be best for the world" logic. But I recognize that it can seem emotionally detached from what is happening in Gaza, and absolve Biden of blame. That is not the point. I just think a second Trump term would be monumentally dangerous for the US and the world. As an example, it would probably embolden Putin as well.
Accepting genocide? I think that would be quite harsh on the tens of millions of people that will vote for Biden come November. But I can understand people with Palestinian backgrounds, for example, deciding not to vote for Biden, even though I still think it would be a mistake.
I honestly still have trouble understanding this. To me the lesser of two evils seems to mean something else then to you. For me Biden being the lesser of two evils in the Israel/Palestine conflict means things will only become worse under Trump. And my basis for thinking so are Trumps words and actions (as posted above) from the time he was president.
I understand that you don't agree with that but honestly can't understand what in the past 8 years would have anyone believe so.
It is more. A vote for Biden is the most concrete action an average US citizen can make, that affirms support for the current policy (and his other policies).
People can argue about Trump being worse or other issues mattering, but I HATE self-serving obfuscation of what that vote means. Just as a Jill Stein vote doesn't have an added message "I don't want Trump", similarly a Biden vote doesn't say "stop bombing." It says quite the opposite actually.
Trying to summarise a complicated political history of my city/state:
There is a local fascist party that grew by beating up South Indians for taking white-collar jobs, then union organisers, then a massacre of Muslims, and, about 15 years ago, North Indians for taking away blue-collar jobs. Its founder openly admired Mussolini, and the party was aligned with India's current ruling party (a country-wide fascist party).
My mother has spent 30 years of her life reporting on some of the crimes of this party, following court cases for literally decades, etc. It's her life's work.
For the last 5 years, the party is opposed to the central ruling party, and the founder's son, a much softer man, is in charge.
I've been convincing my mother (to repeat, her life's work has been to try and see anybody from this party get convicted) to vote for this party. Because it has the best/only chance of beating the national ruling party in my city. So, I'm quite familiar with lesser-of-two-evil arguments!
The tone, hectoring, moralising I see from Biden supporters (some here, many on twitter) on voting for him over Trump is unbelievable. At least pretend to understand why people have moral red lines, why some things are repugnant?
There was an unironic tweet about 2 months ago saying "it is a moral imperative to vote for a 90% Holocaust over a full Holocaust" or something insane like that. Sorry, at that point, if the 10% Holocaust blood is on 3rd party voters or non-voters, then the 90% is on you. And you can live with it in various ways, but at least own it.
If Biden's policies towards Gaza make Arab Americans and others not vote for him, that's his responsibility and not theirs. It will be his fault if that contributes in any way to a Trump win.
It would be ridiculous to blame the voters instead of the terrible policies towards Gaza adopted by the current administration.
It would be ridiculous to blame the voters instead of the terrible policies towards Gaza adopted by the current administration.
In the past I certainly agreed with this view, I didn't vote for Clinton in 2016. But after seeing what 4 years of Trump and Trump supporters actually looks like, in some cases very personal and in my face and especially after COVID, Jan.6 and associated, it changed my view. I believe now that I was wrong (or maybe naive) in 2016 to have a Zizek-like view that somehow allowing Trump to win would help the progressive movement in the US. I was also wrong in not understanding how much Trump emboldened the worst types of people, the type that not only don't struggle with Biden's decisions on Israel-Palestine but the types that gleefully cheer on any murders of Palestinians.
So I fundamentally disagree with the bold. Voting for Biden means voting against all the things that Trump and his supporters will try to do. And that includes, IMO, a much worse chance of anything getting better for Palestinians. It's voting against a potential future that, frankly, scares the shit out of me more than I thought possible before COVID. I think there is zero chance for things to be better for Palestine with Trump as President and a fairly good chance that they would be worse so while I can sympathize with the single issue voter in some way, I think its shortsighted to decide to sit out this one.
I disagree with that myself.
Voting for either candidate would be advantageous to Israel, so nothing will change in this regard. In Trump's case, the Israelis would simply compliment him on his crowd sizes and in exchange he would allow them to do anything they wanted without the tepid pushback they're receiving from Biden about ceasefires, an eventual two state solution, completing their deal with the Saudis etc. Also worth noting Trump would be going in much more harshly on the Houthis since they are threatening commerce, which would set him off.
In most instances, Americans aren't single issue voters and generally don't care about wars in other countries, particularly in light of a growing perception that everything from economics to the southern border are high priorities.
I think it's a relatively simple equation: everything I've seen and read suggest that Trump would be closer to Netanyahu's side than Biden, at best. At worst, he simply wouldn't care and would let Israel do whatever it wants as long as it doesn't intefere with his golf game. Ie, a vote for Trump or an abstension from voting will make things WORSE for the Gazans.
That should be the end of the equation, even if you're a single issue voter. Because all you achieve by not voting is making it worse for the people you care most about, and for what, the self-congratulatory feeling of taking the higher road?
If I'd ever seen anything that would even imply that a Trump presidency would make things for better for Gazans, I could see a line of logic to follow. But there isn't one. He hates muslims with a deep burning passion.
Anyway, in the end people will make their own choices. Personally I think the entire world, much less the US, will be a drastically worse place if there's a second Trump presidency. So I believe we should be doing all we can to avoid that.
I will add that I strongly disagree with how the US have maintained support for Israel throughout the past 3 months, and I honestly don't understand it. I've read and listened to smart people who have the ears of the administration who also strongyl question it. I don't understand what they're doing, and don't believe Biden is the type of person who would do what he thought was wrong for some fringe of the Jewish vote. It seems like all Blinken does with his days is try to reign in Netanyahu, but it's not working. The US has to be the one who calls out the corrupt leader, and demands a cease fire. But they aren't doing it, and I don't understand why.
That should be the end of the equation, even if you're a single issue voter. Because all you achieve by not voting is making it worse for the people you care most about, and for what, the self-congratulatory feeling of taking the higher road?
If I'd ever seen anything that would even imply that a Trump presidency would make things for better for Gazans, I could see a line of logic to follow. But there isn't one. He hates muslims with a deep burning passion.
Anyway, in the end people will make their own choices. Personally I think the entire world, much less the US, will be a drastically worse place if there's a second Trump presidency. So I believe we should be doing all we can to avoid that.
I will add that I strongly disagree with how the US have maintained support for Israel throughout the past 3 months, and I honestly don't understand it. I've read and listened to smart people who have the ears of the administration who also strongyl question it. I don't understand what they're doing, and don't believe Biden is the type of person who would do what he thought was wrong for some fringe of the Jewish vote. It seems like all Blinken does with his days is try to reign in Netanyahu, but it's not working. The US has to be the one who calls out the corrupt leader, and demands a cease fire. But they aren't doing it, and I don't understand why.
The explanation is that Biden doesn't think he's doing something wrong for some fringe of the Jewish vote. He thinks he's doing the right thing.
Excellent discussion over the last page on the moral conundrum that is voting in the 2024 US presidential elections.
As an outsider looking in, I see voting Trump or abstaining from voting as a protest vote against Biden. The way the system is setup, there’s no real alternative or a 3rd option, which complicates things.
I wonder though if things change if Hayley becomes the nominee (however unlikely). Would people so vehemently against Trump somehow become more accepting of her as an alternative to Biden?
I’m happy that I don’t have to vote in these elections. I’m sure I’d be uncomfortable to say the least leading up to and post voting.
One question that I can’t really find an answer to is - why has it been so difficult for the US to reign in Israel? Is it a failure of the administration (Blinken, Biden?) Or are things going exactly how they want it?
The unwavering support extended by the US to Israel in the initial days of the conflict seemed logical. But now as more details emerge of the atrocities happening in Gaza, I just can’t understand how people seem to be willing to accept whatever Israel’s position is. This also coming from the US which is ready to condemn any attack on its perceived civil liberties in 3rd world countries.
As an outsider looking in, I see voting Trump or abstaining from voting as a protest vote against Biden. The way the system is setup, there’s no real alternative or a 3rd option, which complicates things.
I wonder though if things change if Hayley becomes the nominee (however unlikely). Would people so vehemently against Trump somehow become more accepting of her as an alternative to Biden?
I’m happy that I don’t have to vote in these elections. I’m sure I’d be uncomfortable to say the least leading up to and post voting.
One question that I can’t really find an answer to is - why has it been so difficult for the US to reign in Israel? Is it a failure of the administration (Blinken, Biden?) Or are things going exactly how they want it?
The unwavering support extended by the US to Israel in the initial days of the conflict seemed logical. But now as more details emerge of the atrocities happening in Gaza, I just can’t understand how people seem to be willing to accept whatever Israel’s position is. This also coming from the US which is ready to condemn any attack on its perceived civil liberties in 3rd world countries.
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Hayley is a very pro-life and right wing candidate overall too, I actually think there's no true liberal candidate this election.
It’s a complete hypothetical, but I think she could easily win against Biden. Voters are very motivated to vote against Trump, which would not translate to Haley. Also, people want to vote for someone who is not 80 years old, and Biden gets shit for the economy and no credit for his accomplishments.
Her stance on abortion, her gender and her race would work against her, but I believe she could string together a win in the electoral college.
It's going to be some viewing when these single issue voters voting against Biden for admittedly terrible handling of the Israeli conflict and then end up with Trump who everyone forgets is best buddies with Netanyahu and then backs them to the full degree and blows the every loading crap out of his enemies.
Thinking Trump is going to make this better is actually insane.
Thinking Trump is going to make this better is actually insane.
I don't think you understand, no one thinks Trump will be better on this issue. I've seen this mentioned multiple times in this thread now, it's mssing the point.
Then your best bet is go rally the troops for Nikki Hayley because you don't vote for Biden you end up with Trump, unfortunately that's how the two party system works.
This is it! This guy gets it.
Being a single issue voter and having red lines isn't really the same thing. I don't think they should be conflated.
You would not say, for example, that people who don't vote for Trump because he tried to steal the election are "single issue voters."
You would not say, for example, that people who don't vote for Trump because he tried to steal the election are "single issue voters."