2021 Sheep Draft R1 - Pat_Mustard vs. Sjor Bepo

[Jim Beam]

The greatest midfielder ever. Would take Neeskens in amusement park

No footballer has ever played such a decisive role in victory at three major international tournaments, or defined so clearly the dominant club team of the age.
Xavi has won 25 major trophies, made more than 180 assists for more than 50 team-mates at Barcelona, and has over the last six years passed the ball more than anybody else, run more than anybody else, and basically played more football than any other human being anywhere.

Such a tough one, but can't get over those FB.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Told you bepo went under the radar. A nightmare to play against.

Damn unfortunate to go against that juggernaut though and his fullbacks are a bit of a downer. Xavi question is an interesting one, I always wanted to see him in more direct set up and think he would thrived in Sacchi tactical set up which is not far away. You do wonder if he will miss a bit of his one, two football here. With a forwards like Van Basten and Gullit it would be a bit easier, but still am thinking he would have no problem to go on with quick transition and would especially welcomed Robson and Neeskens agressivity on him. With all due respect to both of them he would thrived against their natural strengths. You just can't press Xavi.

Not much on Pat, would like a more natural DM only. As for Dalglish have to take Gio word for it as I watched him only about two or three times.

Not sure about voting. In alliance with both of them. Joking, closer to Pat because of those FB, but bepo team is a more intriguing one.

Aye, Bepo's team would be an utter pain in the arse to play against, no question. Mad bastard has always been true to his ethos of prioritising hard workers and modern players even when it's going to cost him votes so it's nice to see him nail a proper Sjor team here. On Xavi - first and foremost, he's a supremely press-resistant footballer even if he's partnered in midfield with training cones. His qualities won't just vanish in a different set up, but having said that with these partners and tactics there'll be more transitions than he typically experienced in his prime and that area of the game is where Robbo and Neeskens come into their own. I don't see him exerting a decisive stranglehold over midfield here.

Will touch on the DM and Dalglish points soon!

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Feels very harsh on Bepo, but what can you do - I just don't see Mustard losing this one, there's too much quality.

Would not swap Pelé and KKK, btw. The latter is a plausible choice up front given the setup and the available personnel. He probably won't be come the next stage, though.

Aye, I was somewhat testing the waters here due to the lack of a compelling alternative in my squad but it hasn't been particularly well-received. I haven't mounted any sort of argument whatsover for him though so I'll see if the tide of opinion turns if I can make a decent case.

The dear, departed Arbi used him in this role before and it didn't go down especially well, but he did share this which I'll repeat:

He just saw a different picture to everybody else. In those days, you are fighting to get hold of the ball and if I was winning the ball in the last third and I knew I did not have much time on the ball, then I was just looking for his feet.

I had one intention when I played with him - he would park himself up against the centre-half in the box and then the centre-halves were in desperate trouble. The minute he could feel them with his touch and control, he would wrong-foot them and then get shots off, or dink it round the corner for someone to get a shot themselves.

And one of his biggest assets, which no one ever talks about, is his bravery. He is not the biggest and he was playing against some big men

And an assessment from draft forum Fergie, which I unashamedly referenced before picking Dalgish for this role:

Think he works great as an all-round line-leader. For me Dalglish could play everywhere from #8 through to #9 and did that various points in his career. His back to goal game is amongst the best of all time. Defenders could not get round that big fat arse of his and he had eyes in the back of his head, knowing where the incoming centre-half was going and reading where his strike partner was going to go. You'd want that burst of acceleration elsewhere in the front line to mimic the synergy of his partnership with Rush. Therefore you can see him working well with Lato in particular in that channel between the left-back and centre-half. Same with Matthaus who would relish a striker who can hold the ball in for him to burst forward, in much the same way Terry McDermott did, helping him along to 20 goals a season in his pomp.

Will try to gather some footage to bolster my case a bit.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I haven't mounted any sort of argument whatsover for him though so I'll see if the tide of opinion turns if I can make a decent case.

For me, personally, it's more of a draft tactical type of thing: I really do believe he's a plausible fit for the role you have him playing here - he has what it takes to do that, it's not a matter of forcing him into an unnatural role, not at all.

But this draft is GOAT heavy - and I suspect he simply won't cut it when people start comparing him to historically great line leaders. You have to sell the idea that he's mainly a facilitator for Pelé (and Best) to an even greater extent next time - and, well, you know the game.

I think it's an excellent use of him in this match, though - to make that clear - given the circumstances.

 

[Demyanenko_square_jaw]

He is the center-piece of the team, everyone runs he conducts. Just a classical playmaker role in a 442(your Giles, Scholes, Gerson etc.).


Aragones team was fairly direct, i see no issues with Xavi being in one, in fact i always though out of the three(Busi, Iniesta) he was the one that would have zero issues. He isnt the only creative presence(Nedved? and to a certain point Tevez), while all others are runners, all of them were actually very good on the ball and all of them shined in possession based setups. Barca revival started with Davids.
But yeah, team is set up to win through the press not through actual ability on the ball(even though there is plenty of that). Probably not the smartest idea for drafts but thats the football i like.
Take City game from yesterday as example, they were lovely to watch on the ball but my God the quality of that press was just insane and so fun to watch, Gladbach couldnt hold the ball for 2 minutes around their box, football bloody hell!

It's not so much the pace/directness for me as it is the lack of other short passing partners in there. Aragones team wasn't nearly as methodical as the later ones, but it was full of excellent short passers to interact with. The earlier Barca teams weren't particularly lacking in speed or verticality either and Xavi was very good/excellent in them, but he always had a partner or two to work along with. It's all in the passing style and preferred choices, he's among the most cautious and regimented of all the great cm's, taking great care of the ball and while as capable of a through ball as anyone that played the game, he had rarely opted for the early riskier option if he could get away with orchestrating numerous short passing interactions to bring him into a more advantageous position. When expected to be more direct, or Guardiola mark 2 in the earlier pre tiki-taka Barca teams up to the Pep era he clearly wasn't as comfortable or consistent with it.

It's likely a bit unfair of me to pick him out though, as he'll still be an excellent player in the role, it's just i've tended to notice over recent years a backlash against some of the nonsense criticism from his playing years that he only became really good with Pep/wouldn't cope in other systems, with a lot of arguments going the other way saying he was always a dominant monster that could guarantee near complete midfield control. Having watched him throughout his career i don't think either are true and saw the chance of him in different to usual setup to jump in and point that out, without considering you never actually said anything like that

 

[Pat_Mustard]

For me, personally, it's more of a draft tactical type of thing: I really do believe he's a plausible fit for the role you have him playing here - he has what it takes to do that, it's not a matter of forcing him into an unnatural role, not at all.

But this draft is GOAT heavy - and I suspect he simply won't cut it when people start comparing him to historically great line leaders. You have to sell the idea that he's mainly a facilitator for Pelé (and Best) to an even greater extent next time - and, well, you know the game.

I think it's an excellent use of him in this match, though - to make that clear - given the circumstances.

Understood, absolutely. I used your post to address the more general criticisms of Dalglish but your point is well-taken. It's been a great draft, but the downside of anything so GOAT-centric is that anything outside the norm is that much harder to pull off. Ideally, I'd have nabbed one of those rare CFs with a comparable back-to-goal game who was also a more natural threat off-the-shoulder, and I'll be looking for that in the reinforcements for sure.

On the topic of draft tactics, when I picked Dalglish I did have one eye on insurance against a Pele injury - not ideal of course, but a fairly good like-for-like replacement in the context of having a GOAT removed from your team.

And segueing into the other general criticism of my team (not on your part Chester, just in general) which is the lack of a dedicated DM, Firstly, I thought similarly to Harms:

What a lovely 4-4-2 that would give any team in the world a run for their money. Pat's team has no weaknesses though (that CB pairing is exactly what you want against such fluid and aggressive front 2) and with the likes of Pelé and Best I know which side is more likely to produce a piece of magic to win it. Robson & Neeskens is also a crazy pairing that won't let anyone dominate the midfield, even though Xavi is the best midfielder on the pitch and generally Sjor has a bit of advantage in that area.

and secondly there was an element of injury-proofing myself as if either Robbo or Neeskens gets injured there's a like-for-like replacement of comparable quality there.

More generally, I suppose I dislike the whole 'specialist DM' phenomenon, as I grew up watching proper two-way B2B types, which is compounded by watching some of the rare few who tick that 'final-worthy DM' archetype in drafts actually playing quite differently in reality. Sjor's point that we'll not see the absolute best from Robson and/or Neeskens is perfectly fair though, as the team isn't set up around them.

I wouldn't go as far as Giles here, but it's interesting viewing on this topic:

 

[antohan]

I looked at the teams individually first and felt Sjor's was clearly the more well rounded and balanced unit. Cracking team, right profile players, can see it dominating games.

Pat's team isn't like that straight off the bat, or even after the Dalglish role explained (despite him nailing it there). Defensive line is a bit wonky really.

But then we get to the styles and instructions. There's a lot of sucking up to high press and high lines over the last decade, but against that front four it's suicidal, however much I rate that defensive unit.

GOATs with acres of space ahead, it is a recipe for disaster that would outscore that oppo despite not even getting 30% possession.

 

[antohan]

It's not so much the pace/directness for me as it is the lack of other short passing partners in there. Aragones team wasn't nearly as methodical as the later ones, but it was full of excellent short passers to interact with. The earlier Barca teams weren't particularly lacking in speed or verticality either and Xavi was very good/excellent in them, but he always had a partner or two to work along with. It's all in the passing style and preferred choices, he's among the most cautious and regimented of all the great cm's, taking great care of the ball and while as capable of a through ball as anyone that played the game, he had rarely opted for the early riskier option if he could get away with orchestrating numerous short passing interactions to bring him into a more advantageous position. When expected to be more direct, or Guardiola mark 2 in the earlier pre tiki-taka Barca teams up to the Pep era he clearly wasn't as comfortable or consistent with it.

It's likely a bit unfair of me to pick him out though, as he'll still be an excellent player in the role, it's just i've tended to notice over recent years a backlash against some of the nonsense criticism from his playing years that he only became really good with Pep/wouldn't cope in other systems, with a lot of arguments going the other way saying he was always a dominant monster that could guarantee near complete midfield control. Having watched him throughout his career i don't think either are true and saw the chance of him in different to usual setup to jump in and point that out, without considering you never actually said anything like that

Agree with this 100%.

Xavi fits the chosen style perfectly but in a very particular way. He would GOAT orchestrate with different company. In this company to me it is more akin to non peak Xavi and I would consider, say, Schweinsteiger as an upgrade.

 

[Physiocrat]

More generally, I suppose I dislike the whole 'specialist DM' phenomenon, as I grew up watching proper two-way B2B types, which is compounded by watching some of the rare few who tick that 'final-worthy DM' archetype in drafts actually playing quite differently in reality. Sjor's point that we'll not see the absolute best from Robson and/or Neeskens is perfectly fair though, as the team isn't set up around them.

I wouldn't go as far as Giles here, but it's interesting viewing on this topic:

Interesting vid Pat. I understand the argument and Mascherano is clearly a limited DM however, two things come to mind - firstly, you want your B2B licence to go forward all the time to get the most out of his abilities and having the partner go forward too and become an option for the other CM could be risky in transition. If the CM needs his partner for an option most of the time, it means a lack of movement on the part of the rest of the team.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

It's not so much the pace/directness for me as it is the lack of other short passing partners in there. Aragones team wasn't nearly as methodical as the later ones, but it was full of excellent short passers to interact with. The earlier Barca teams weren't particularly lacking in speed or verticality either and Xavi was very good/excellent in them, but he always had a partner or two to work along with. It's all in the passing style and preferred choices, he's among the most cautious and regimented of all the great cm's, taking great care of the ball and while as capable of a through ball as anyone that played the game, he had rarely opted for the early riskier option if he could get away with orchestrating numerous short passing interactions to bring him into a more advantageous position. When expected to be more direct, or Guardiola mark 2 in the earlier pre tiki-taka Barca teams up to the Pep era he clearly wasn't as comfortable or consistent with it.

It's likely a bit unfair of me to pick him out though, as he'll still be an excellent player in the role, it's just i've tended to notice over recent years a backlash against some of the nonsense criticism from his playing years that he only became really good with Pep/wouldn't cope in other systems, with a lot of arguments going the other way saying he was always a dominant monster that could guarantee near complete midfield control. Having watched him throughout his career i don't think either are true and saw the chance of him in different to usual setup to jump in and point that out, without considering you never actually said anything like that

Disagree and i think you are underrating the rest of his teammates here, the way this thread is going you would think he is in the team with Stiles, Jairzinho and Lukaku. All players around him shined in possession setups, all are more then good on the ball and all apart from maybe Cucuaču(i just dont know tbh, maybe he is good maybe he isnt) are good passers that can play in tight situations. Nedved was brilliant actually and probably the reason why he is the ultimate teammate almost, Davids could be sloppy with his dribbling but his passing was always spot on, one of the reason he was such a success in his short spell at Barca. Defenders are quality passers and dont think the front two should be any issue. Should be more then enough for a direct "possession" based team and for Xavi to perform at a great level.
Take the United 08 team as example, one of the best direct sides ever but they were actually brilliant in possession when they wanted too - now check the personel. Rooney(very direct at the time, fairly sloppy in tight areas), Ronaldo(direct as feck), Hargo(lol)/Park(very similar to Lucho), Carrick(often under scrutiny for his ability under pressure though i always thought thats utter bs but id say on a fairly similar level to Davids when it comes to short passing under pressure) and there are Scholes(Xavi) and Tevez. You dont need a bunch of David Silvas to play a quality possession game.
Regarding his pre-Pep form/quality. Should be a non issue as it has zero connections with this team. Players develop at different stages and pre Pep he was never given the reins to run the team so to say thats how he would play in a more direct team is nonsense IMO
Thats the last one for me, just wanted to respond on a well construncted post.

@Pat_Mustard never in doubt my midget loving friend, good luck in next round!

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Maybe we lost but we have much more fun then other teams.

 

[Ecstatic]

In these drafts, it is always difficult to present a player in an unusual setup for the player.

I completely buy the idea that Xavi can be great in a 442 like this one. However, I am more concerned by his ability to win the battle against Bryan Robson...and be in a posture to restrict physically a player like Pele. I always thought France 1996-2000.

2006 France (44% possession) 3-1 Spain (56% possession) - I can't remember the game but wouldn't be surprised if Vieira - FIFA man of the match - nullified xavi in that game

Spain

• 01 I Casillas
• 22 I Pablo
• 05 C Puyol
• 15 G Sergio Ramos
• 03 M Pernia
• 18 F Fabregas
• 08 H Xavi (72 M Senna )
• 14 X Alonso
• 21 D Villa (54 S Joaquin )
• 09 F Torres
• 07 G Raul (54 S Luis Garcia )

I don't know if this has been discussed but if the idea for Bepo is to have strikers who will harass Passarella and Vierchowood, then it would have made sense to discuss if these defenders are good under pressure in terms of distribution.

 

[Gio]

@Ecstatic Yes, Vieira was immense in that tie and was FIFA's man-of-the-match. At that point Spain hadn't quite yet polished the passing game that would steamroller everyone over the next few years, or at least made it bulletproof against that high-calibre physical opposition. You could see the foundations there though, particularly in the group stages when their passing patterns were clicking with Xavi and Alonso dictating matters. It was a 4-4-2 diamond rather than a 4-3-3, for what it's worth.

 

[Physiocrat]

@Physiocrat
Watch this and tell me if you still have the same concerns.


As for a DM thing, its a high line high press for constant 90 minutes, would expect that pitch to be very small as the team would always be compact. Regarding the actual midfield partnership, at that Euro he was partnered by Senna and while he didnt press as much as Davids he was also not as mobile and good in defensive recoveries but yeah, they played without a holding midfielder. Until the Villa injury it was a very much 442 setup not to dissimilar to this.

I watched the video. Xavi can play vertically when he wants but I think his disposition is more risk averse than you want in this setup. I will try and get round to watching some of Spain in 08 again to refresh my memory

 

[Pat_Mustard]

@Pat_Mustard never in doubt my midget loving friend, good luck in next round!

Thanks mate and good luck in your next match . Was an enjoyable match thread.

Interesting vid Pat. I understand the argument and Mascherano is clearly a limited DM however, two things come to mind - firstly, you want your B2B licence to go forward all the time to get the most out of his abilities and having the partner go forward too and become an option for the other CM could be risky in transition. If the CM needs his partner for an option most of the time, it means a lack of movement on the part of the rest of the team.

I do see your argument here mate - there's a clarity and simplicity to having a specialist holder that is appealing, particularly when you factor in the (highly welcome) complication of Passarella moving forward at times. Ideally, even if I wanted to avoid a specialist Mauro Silva or Mascherano-type DM, I'd acknowledge that a more defensive B2B partnered with either Robbo or Neeskens would look a more natural partnership in terms of maximising one of those two attacking beasts. I also really liked the idea of moving to a 4-3-3 with Robbo and Neeskens flanking a DLP, although that requires a bit more thought with Passarella in the team.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Thanks mate and good luck in your next match . Was an enjoyable match thread.



I do see your argument here mate - there's a clarity and simplicity to having a specialist holder that is appealing, particularly when you factor in the (highly welcome) complication of Passarella moving forward at times. Ideally, even if I wanted to avoid a specialist Mauro Silva or Mascherano-type DM, I'd acknowledge that a more defensive B2B partnered with either Robbo or Neeskens would look a more natural partnership in terms of maximising one of those two attacking beasts. I also really liked the idea of moving to a 4-3-3 with Robbo and Neeskens flanking a DLP, although that requires a bit more thought with Passarella in the team.

I have many times toyed with the idea of playing Passarella himself as a DM.

 

[Isotope]

I just see Xavi as the metronome, and Nedved as the go to on attack.

 

[Ecstatic]

@Ecstatic Yes, Vieira was immense in that tie and was FIFA's man-of-the-match. At that point Spain hadn't quite yet polished the passing game that would steamroller everyone over the next few years, or at least made it bulletproof against that high-calibre physical opposition. You could see the foundations there though, particularly in the group stages when their passing patterns were clicking with Xavi and Alonso dictating matters. It was a 4-4-2 diamond rather than a 4-3-3, for what it's worth.

Yeah, France - Spain in 2006 was
- the end of the Golden era from France
- the start of the Spain's Golden era as you say

As you know, the Golden era for France started in 1995 after the 1994 WC Failure:
- Euro 96 SF: lost against CZC in penalties
- WC 98 winner
- Euro 00 winner
- WC 02 bad luck and exit 1st round: Henry red card, some players like Zidane injured in a friendly just before the start of the competition
- Euro 04 - Vieira injured + uninspired coach and team: failure of a 442 system with the top scorers of the Premier League and Calcio. Henry/trezeguet
The mistake was to have put Robert Pires on the right and Zidane on the left in a 4-4-2 system. Silvestre and Dacourt in the starting 11.
What should have been done is the following:

---------------------------------- Henry (Arsenal)
----- Pires (Arsenal best role)------ Zidane (his best role) ------ Wiltord (Arsenal) / Giuly
- WC 06: return to the old good recipe and fundamentals, finalist

 

[Synco]

Would have voted for Pat (if I hadn't forgotten), but still want to say that Sjor's team is brilliantly done. In a not so goaty draft I'd back a side of that kind to go all the way. In this game, I could see it trouble and possibly beat the opponent as well. So it's more a matter of an "out of 10 games" consideration for me.

(None of this is to say that Pat's side isn't well designed as a unit too - one of the early favourites to win the whole thing for me.)

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Finally got around to putting together some video of Dalglish. He started this match as the line leader for Liverpool with the winger Heighway playing off him, then when the injured Emlyn Hughes was replaced by the CF David Johnson (3:30 in the video) he started dropping off more into the second striker role. He'd scored twice by that stage and was generally brilliant throughout, albeit against an awful Spurs defence. It's from extended highlights found on youtube rather than a full 90 minutes recording so it's fairly brief.