That should work. The OP graph shows Pele as further up than the other two though.
--Ronaldo---
------------------Pele -----------Best
2021 Sheep Draft Finals - Pat vs Ecstatic
- Thread starter Edgar Allan Pillow
- Start date
That should work. The OP graph shows Pele as further up than the other two though.
--Ronaldo---
------------------Pele -----------Best
With an arrow down. All three would obviously interchange — I just don’t think that you can say that Ronaldo is shoehorned/stuck on the wing, when this 4-3-3 is just a simplistic depiction of their positions in the defensive phase.
I confused with a different game I think. Definitely not Wilkins.
See the problem with this question is there were no players better than them in their era. So they didn't have that opportunity.
But like I said, Burruchaga - Maradona were quite complimentary and I can see Platini being less selfish and playing the Burruchanga role quite well.
I had to stop myself before mentioning him so that this argument wouldn't look like a piss takeProbably was referring to Hoddle then
But Robson rarely played with a partner that clearly had more defensive responsibility than him. Usually it was the other way around.
Was actually talking about the United team and not England team.
Confused Maradona with Platini.
From what I remember of this game, Robson more often than not was the furthest midfielder in general
Confused Maradona with Platini.
From what I remember of this game, Robson more often than not was the furthest midfielder in general
Fair enough, Moses was usually more defensive in this set up.
Tough one to call. Ecstatic has insane creativity and goal threat (I'm not sure what I think of Platini and Maradona but Platini with one of the other GOAT 10s makes the most sense given how much work he did deep). Pat though has some mismatches in his favour. I should probably watch some more later Pele. I have seen Pele deployed as a false 9 but have always thought it would take away from his dribbling ability. Might not be an issue in a possession set up but in a more direct set up I think he might miss that. I have no issues with R9 on the left as he is flanked by an attacking LB.
I am on the fence. I call it a 2-2 draw.
I am on the fence. I call it a 2-2 draw.
So what's the purpose of the teamsheet graph? Is it their starter position, or the most position they'll be in? The graph shows him as a winger, like Henry or Villa at Barca. Both the laters weren't as good as when they were the main striker.
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Hard luck @Ecstatic . Scoreline ended up being undeservedly harsh after a tight opening period.
Pat, the ultimate silent domination.
I will reply end of Saturday to the messages posted.
Congratulations! Great team!
I am perfectly fine with the outcome that was expected before the start of the game.
Will come back later in the day
Congratulations! Great team!
I am perfectly fine with the outcome that was expected before the start of the game.
Will come back later in the day
The discussion got far livelier today towards the end of the match and afterwards when I wasn't around. I'm going to address some of the points soon as it ended up being a decent thread.In the earlier stages of the draft I was actually vaguely planning towards a 4-4-1-1 if I made it to the final but it didn't pan out for me, largely due to Luis Suarez and Matthews not being ideal reinforcements for that tactic. I'd have wanted a RW/RM in place of Matthews who could contribute more defensively and shore up the midfield against all the meaty options Ecstatic had there. Gullit was my dream choice here even though he's not universally loved in that role on here. The other problem is that I'd probably have had to drop two of Luis Suarez, Robbo and Neeskens and acquire a DM or more-recognised defensive B2B player to have any chance against Maradona/Platini with a 4-4-2. So in the best case scenario with three reinforcements I'd have been left with something like:
Toldo
Djalma Bergomi Passarella Camacho
Gullit/RW Rijkaard Robson/Suarez Best
Pele
Kocsis
which I'm not sure looks better than what I fielded here. I might still be in full-bias mode but I love my attack here and consider it one of the best I've built, particuarly as it wasn't designed around maximising one player given the draft format but rather finding a viable role for all of them on the fly. I didn't do a good job of explaining it as I was too lazy to do alternative formation graphics to show how they might operate in different phases, but Beam and Harms both nailed it here:Djalma Bergomi Passarella Camacho
Gullit/RW Rijkaard Robson/Suarez Best
Pele
Kocsis
With Pele dropping deeper linking with the midfield this at times becomes that 4-4-2 diamond I like so much.
Considering the tactics wing attackers are mostly providing the necessary width and I don't have problems with Djalma especially as Best is on his side.
Other forwards that could work in this scheme: Law, Seeler, Francescoli, Benzema, even Zico (although Zico would require more natural scorer on the right)... Pele is of course perfect, just my thoughts as I wanted to play this tactic in the draft some day, as is Ronaldo on the left.
Trying to look at it through neutral eyes I can see Best being replaceable for the sake of coherence even though it would surely mean a downgrade in individual quality. Struggling to come up with alternatives but someone whose game is slightly more skewed to off-the-ball runs than sheer genius on the ball but was still great on both flanks (Blokhin or Stoichkov maybe). Even a livewire creator who could switch flanks with ease (Bruno Conti or Boniek maybe?).
EDIT: Not sure that placing a primary goalscorer as a wide-forward is actually shoehorning them any more in the post-Cristiano and Messi era, when we've seen the big two rack up obscene numbers from wide roles and the likes of Salah, Robben, Neymar and many more follow in their footsteps to varying degrees. Point taken on Henry and Villa, although both were playing in a particularly rigorous positional play system under Pep, Henry in particular was clearly a bit past his peak, and Villa was playing a somewhat sacrificial role for Messi at his most goal-hungry.
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It's a huge question as always. Generally formations are based on team's defensive shape, but there are no rules, obviously. And there are no way to really showcase fluid attacking units like Pat's on a static formation, unless you make a gif/multiple pictures for different stages. The arrows on his graph are pretty telling though (even though the maximum on sharemytactics is 2 per player).
Nah, I've been binge watching United games from the 60's lately and Best does tons of off-the-ball runs — I'll publish a video from the game against City where Charlton constantly finds him with long balls in a few days. It's nice that you have a winger-like player here instead of a more traditionally goalscoring wide-forward like Blokhin, imo — with Pelé and Ronaldo's genius in the middle it's good to have a player who is natural at moving out wide to make a cross.
Agree with that, I find the stylistic mix inside that front three especially appealing.
exactly, Best being a selfish ball hogging tit is a myth which got more into public domain due to statements of Charlton and Law, where they tried to make it like, Georgie was some selfish forward. When he clearly was a much better passer and intelligent player, than what people perceive him to be.
I am certainly surprised by his fight for the ball, when United didn't had possession.
He would certainly fit well with the Pele/Ronaldo pair.
I'd have liked to see a 4-4-2 from Pat actually, with Matthews and Best wide and Pele and Ronaldo up front. Anyway, congratulations on winning the draft @Pat_Mustard
Interesting changes to your side, @Ecstatic I'd have voted for you if you didn't have both Platini and Maradona in the same side. A pure zona mista or a magic square would have won my vote and I think you more or less had the squad for both those tactics.
Interesting changes to your side, @Ecstatic I'd have voted for you if you didn't have both Platini and Maradona in the same side. A pure zona mista or a magic square would have won my vote and I think you more or less had the squad for both those tactics.
After I emphasised that the three attackers would roam and interchange so much I can't really claim that Best will provide a fixed outlet on the right wing so I'd concede the Djalma point quite readily, although with Best still providing a fair bit out there and Neeskens having that propensity to surge out to the right channels as well I didn't think it was a critical flaw.
Cheers Edgar!I'll gladly take that as validation of my attacking strategy then!
Yep, with Pele operating between the lines Best is perfect as you want to maximise Pele/Ronaldo goalscoring potential. Conti and Boniek would also be excellent, but still a downgrade from Best.
In case of Enzo, Benzema or Zico in the middle I would prefer that off the ball goalscoring runner on the right.
In case of Enzo, Benzema or Zico in the middle I would prefer that off the ball goalscoring runner on the right.
Congrats Pat. Great team!
Thanks mate!
I suspected that you'd prefer Pele at inside-left and Ronaldo up top when I was mulling over my options but I was low-key obsessed with trying Ronaldo in that wide-forward role after Sjor planted the idea in my head. Regarding the midfield, I did actually mull over going for Keane to replace Luis Suarez given what I was up against here but decided against it.
Cheers mate!
I definitely appreciate and welcome the new approaches, so kudos for that. Besides, the Fenomeno gifs did the job in proving that he was more than capable of the role you envisioned.
I'd have been equally happy if Ecstatic had won as his sides have not been the usual stuff as well.
Shoutout to @Enigma_87 and @King Kendrick as well, would have been worthy winners too.
Original understanding!
I think they are sufficiently complimentary.
Boring to always see Maradona as a lonely number 10 in these drafts.
Thanks
In some way, not far away fron a magic square
---------Scheva
---------------------- Maradona
------------- Platini
------ Giggs------Tigana
------------Falcao
Not really. I could have had Henry/Thuram or Vogts/Kalle and ended with blocked/ineligible.
I deserve to be punished for having giving up the theme revolving around duos: Kaka/Scheva/Cafu, Giresse/Platini/Tigana, Cerezo/Falcao.
The outcome does not matter but frustrated not to have had a new duo.
Thanks for your contributions and making this thread alive
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cheers mate, we had some fun creating that one and particularly happy with the attacking 4-4-2 at the end
Also well done @Ecstatic . Loved your team and voted all throughout for you but couldn’t look past Pat’s team above.
My imagination is just pretty low. Sorry to both Finalists, I can't see what you both are trying to do. Sure you can get clips of players playing in their non conventional positions. Just like you can find clips of Bruno making tackles in DM position.
Anyway. Congrats to Pat. Incredible picks and blocks in the Final. 3 picks and 2 blocks? Beautiful.
You're just so unlucky Ecstatic. need to sacrifice more virgins.
Anyway. Congrats to Pat. Incredible picks and blocks in the Final. 3 picks and 2 blocks? Beautiful.
You're just so unlucky Ecstatic. need to sacrifice more virgins.
I think the Ronaldo call is spot on tbh. In a modern setup he'd be like a Rashford or an Mbappe in terms of how he'd be utilized I think.
I dunno. Most (who spent most of their career as) striker that then play on the wing becomes less effective. Henry, Villa, Cavani, Eto'o to name a few.
But then, it's Ronaldo.
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If you can't see or don't like, it doesn't matter really.
It depends on the setup. If you have a wing job but have an aggressive overlapper at full-back it is more a nominal position giving you quite a lot of free reign in attack.
So you can put the likes of Denis Law, Romario, Van Basten or Gerd Muller on the wing, as long as there's overlapping FB?
Not really, it depends on the striker for me. The one you want to put on the wing, and the one operating centrally. For example, I wouldn't like to place Lewandowski in any variation on the wing because he is best in and around the box, same as Van Basten/Muller.
Ronaldo however liked to come deeper for the ball, take it and attack you from there. And he preffered that left side, so as long you have a complimentary forward who is also great in linking the play, dropping deeper or has excellent playmaking instincts you should be more then fine. So, (just in theory of course) Ronaldo - Pele - Best should work great.
I wouldn't put any of them out wide (Law possibly in some systems), but there's a difference between the pace-based attackers and the more conventional no9s. As a wide forward they have to get from A to B, which requires the pace and power that Salah, Cristiano, Stoichkov, Robben, Mane, Blokhin all have, whereas most of these guys are already at B. I'm the same in that I wouldn't put Ronaldo out wide either, as I'd prefer him with the freedom of the front line, but I can see this working with a false 9 as it would often become an AMC and two CFs.
In the Henry at Barcelona case, Pep didn't develop a false 9 4-3-3 system until the end of 2008/09, which was basically post Henry. Up until that point it was a more straightforward play-stretching 4-3-3 with Henry and Messi hugging the touchline, and Eto'o leading the line. Big difference between that and any of the false 9 set-ups that followed and are often a wanky way of describing an AMC and 2 CFs.
I can see this also. Hence i thought it should be
Ronaldo- ---
--------------------Pele ---------- Best
I still think it's not optimal way to use him, as he's mainly a striker at his best; not the like of Cristiano or Stoickhov during his career. But that's just my thought now. I change my mind over time anyway.