2021 American Civil War

Maticmaker said:
Yes just like referring to some ones views as ' a load of shit'... if you dish it out be prepared to take it!
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The difference is I insulted you., and your shitty views. You decided to insult millions of people who are purposefully being disenfranchised by politicians who do not want them to vote.
 
Maticmaker said:
No that is a convenient excuse, people will queue for food, for shopping, with proper spacing, and of course for vaccinations!



See above, queues can formed with proper spacing that do not present problems, just inconvenience



No, they should be worth nothing. if missing the personal turnout to vote is done merely for inconvenience, which is what you seem to be implying. Its not a load of shit, its 'sloth' you are advocating.
For citizens, being able to vote freely and in person is the basic requirement for any democracy, its a duty in many countries and thousands have died around the world to achieve that privilege. Missing work ... don't make me laugh!
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In addition to @WI_Red's point about the sloth comment being outrageous: why would democratic participation have to involve as much work as possible? Do you want to encourage or discourage participation?

It's simply a fact that the indirect democratic systems that contemporary democratic countries employ (i.e, 'the people' don't decide on matters; they decide who gets to decide) generally don't do a great job at inciting people to care and vote. It's very hard to address that aspect: it requires changing electoral system so every vote counts (e.g., in first-past-the-post/winner-takes-all systems, voting left in an extremely right-leaning county is pretty pointless), and even then, many people will continue to feel disconnected, and especially those voting for parties that are never likely to make it into a majority government (single-party or coalition).

So to me, the sensible thing to do is to make voting as easy as possible, to help people participate in their democracies. Don't make it work; use whatever is available to make it easy! Allow people to vote at the time and day that works best for them, reduce ID requirements (they're hard on Indigenous people living on reserve in Canada, for example), and allow them to vote by mail an internet (once systems are ready for the latter; they are probably nearly there in countries like Finland and the Netherlands). Worries about fraud are nonsense: there is no evidence anywhere for fraud happening at any significant scale.
 
calodo2003 said:
It’s wouldn’t be rocket surgery to get something like this up & running successfully.

Not sure where you live, but you make your populace sound like babbling idiots for not being able to get something like this up & running with little issue.
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A big chunk of the population isnt registered on the national database. You get id from local county and that's that. I've had 2 id which means i can vote twice. Some have multiple id to bank with 5 different name.

Some have id even when they're underage.

Some registered in halfway across the nation while he actually lives somewhere else.

Some are illiterate. Some dont even have id. Some dont even have a home.

Not every country is USA. But yeah... everyone else is just an idiot
 
Maticmaker said:
No that is a convenient excuse,
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A "convenient" excuse?

Do you actually read what you type out? I do understand where you are coming from whether or not I agree, but that's a ridiculously extreme viewpoint right there. The fact you don't seem aware of why people are calling you out on that point should make you stop and think about if you do go too far, or how to word your points without managing to look down on millions of people.
 
Why would you even care how someone else casts their vote, why would it need an excuse, unless their method of choice is affected by significant amounts of voter fraud, which it isn't.
 
AOC is so good at Twitter.
Seriously good, you can almost say she's mastering it; which is difficult with a medium that has such nightmarish power and irresistible capability to suck its users in, make them lose the plot, and subjugate them to its prefered discourse mode of hysteria, smugness, vanity, excessive combativeness, personalization, and incapacity to restrainst and drawing lines.
She's never taking the eye off the ball, as most others do eventually tweeting. I admire this quality very much in her, it's rare, and am very thankful for it.
 
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its called the voting rights, not voting privileges. People just seem to forget that when discussing the policies regarding voting and as such voting might just turn into a privilege.
 
Maticmaker said:
No that is a convenient excuse, people will queue for food, for shopping, with proper spacing, and of course for vaccinations!



See above, queues can formed with proper spacing that do not present problems, just inconvenience



No, they should be worth nothing. if missing the personal turnout to vote is done merely for inconvenience, which is what you seem to be implying. Its not a load of shit, its 'sloth' you are advocating.
For citizens, being able to vote freely and in person is the basic requirement for any democracy, its a duty in many countries and thousands have died around the world to achieve that privilege. Missing work ... don't make me laugh!
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This is such a massive steaming load of shit.
 
Cheimoon said:
In addition to @WI_Red's point about the sloth comment being outrageous: why would democratic participation have to involve as much work as possible? Do you want to encourage or discourage participation?

It's simply a fact that the indirect democratic systems that contemporary democratic countries employ (i.e, 'the people' don't decide on matters; they decide who gets to decide) generally don't do a great job at inciting people to care and vote. It's very hard to address that aspect: it requires changing electoral system so every vote counts (e.g., in first-past-the-post/winner-takes-all systems, voting left in an extremely right-leaning county is pretty pointless), and even then, many people will continue to feel disconnected, and especially those voting for parties that are never likely to make it into a majority government (single-party or coalition).

So to me, the sensible thing to do is to make voting as easy as possible, to help people participate in their democracies. Don't make it work; use whatever is available to make it easy! Allow people to vote at the time and day that works best for them, reduce ID requirements (they're hard on Indigenous people living on reserve in Canada, for example), and allow them to vote by mail an internet (once systems are ready for the latter; they are probably nearly there in countries like Finland and the Netherlands). Worries about fraud are nonsense: there is no evidence anywhere for fraud happening at any significant scale.
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To be honest, these arguments never really do much for me. We should always remain alert on this and not get complacent about it.
  • In the Netherlands there was "no evidence" of the government influencing an independent research organization, until suddenly there was. Conclusions from research were "drastically" rewritten to benefit government officials.
  • Conservatives would have probably told you in the 60s there was no evidence of the FBI spying on targets they deemed subversive, such as the Black Panthers or MLK. Until it turned out they did.
  • Nazi sympathizers would have probably told you in the 40s there was no large scale extermination of Jews and other groups, until it turned out there was.

I don't doubt the voting security of many Western countries but absence of evidence does not always mean evidence of absence. Again, we should always remain vigilant about these things.
 
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Schumer is calling to put anyone inside the Capitol to be put on the No Fly List. Serves them right.
 
Sky1981 said:
A big chunk of the population isnt registered on the national database. You get id from local county and that's that. I've had 2 id which means i can vote twice. Some have multiple id to bank with 5 different name.

Some have id even when they're underage.

Some registered in halfway across the nation while he actually lives somewhere else.

Some are illiterate. Some dont even have id. Some dont even have a home.

Not every country is USA. But yeah... everyone else is just an idiot
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How do you think policies or rules are made? You think it’s an omelette with no broken eggs? It wasn’t smooth here either, but the end result is effective & smooth, even more so in today’s Covid era.

But, sure, don’t be aspirational or want your country to be aspirational.

Such a weak, puerile ‘zinger’ to try to turn this into American exceptionalism. You realize that many, many countries do have mail in voting, yes?
 
Drawfull said:
There are withdrawal limits from cash machines. In the UK unless you're with one or two banks it's punitive as hell, I'm limited to 600eur a day in Spain or 500gbp. When I was renting I used to have to go in to get the landlords cash and needed two forms of ID.
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I'd say that's more of a dodgy landlord problem. I'm sure he was declaring that cash to HMRC...

Anyway, we can still do it, if we need to and without having to show a photo ID. Mainly because there are better ways of proving you have authority to use the account.
 
I 'm sure Michael Reinoehl's friends and family would gladly take him being alive on the 'no-fly list' if given the choice
 
Foxbatt said:
Schumer is calling to put anyone inside the Capitol to be put on the No Fly List. Serves them right.
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Its a bit shit punishment though. I mean, the whole thing is kinda unconstitutional to begin with. People don't know if they're on it, don't have any recourse. Yeah, put the domestic terrorists on it with the international terrorists... seems fair. But the whole thing is really a bit shit. Either people have committed crimes and should be charged and tried for them, or they haven't and shouldn't suffer penalties just on suspicion.

This is in no way a defense of the terrorists, its just like I said... I want them convicted of their actual crimes, not placed extrajudicially on some shady list.
 
calodo2003 said:
A couple dozen five year olds were massacred in cold blood a few years ago, yet nothing happened. Public sentiment for common sense gun reform was at a high, maybe all time. Unfortunately there was nothing that happened in this insurrection that would remotely move the needle of public sentiment as much.

As someone above said, it might change the gun laws allowed near governmental buildings, but that’s about it unfortunately. If anything, it may increase open carry rights as the insurrection will only embolden the cosplaytriot politicians on the right to use it as a call for their ilk to want to open carry more.
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You don't think that politicians care more about their own safety than they care about those 5 years olds? That's why I asked, it's not the actions that matter but the targets. Now you are probably right and know the american context a lot better than I do.
 
JPRouve said:
You don't think that politicians care more about their own safety than they care about those 5 years olds? That's why I asked, it's not the actions that matter but the targets. Now you are probably right and know the american context a lot better than I do.
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Magazine limits (i.e., 5 rounds max for rifles, 10 for handguns) would be hilarious, mind.
 
diarm said:
In the middle of a global pandemic, I think it's fair to respect the votes of people who thought it prudent to avoid polling stations and the hordes of gun waving mouth breathers who refuse to wear masks.
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Or even any other time. I don't care how people fill in their ballot, just so long as they vote. Both postal and in person are equally valid, and it's daft to think otherwise as others on this forum appear to do.
 
JPRouve said:
You don't think that politicians care more about their own safety than they care about those 5 years olds? That's why I asked, it's not the actions that matter but the targets. Now you are probably right and know the american context a lot better than I do.
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The problem with this thought is, that if laws are enacted following this incident, and due to politicians 'caring about their own safety', these laws will very likely mean a net plus in militarization of the American society, not a decrease.
They'll very likely not tackle gun ownership and proliferation, but increase the fortification of certain state agencies and areas.
 
JPRouve said:
You don't think that politicians care more about their own safety than they care about those 5 years olds? That's why I asked, it's not the actions that matter but the targets. Now you are probably right and know the american context a lot better than I do.
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Absolutely not. Their safety doesn’t get them donations from their mentally deficient constituency. Sure, you will see pics of idiots like MarkWayne Dumbfeck out of Oklahoma cowering behind a bench, scared out of his wits about the mob right outside the door to the chamber in which he was, but when presented a possibility of gun control that would help keep him, his family, & his constituents safer v. losing an election & losing campaign funds, he will always go for the win & the funds. It’s been proven again & again.

Freedumb & all that.
 
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Hansi Fick said:
The problem with this thought is, that if laws are enacted following this incident, and due to politicians 'caring about their own safety', these laws will very likely mean a net plus in militarization of the American society, not a decrease.
They'll very likely not tackle gun ownership and proliferation, but increase the fortification of certain state agencies and areas.
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It's a question not a thought. I'm not saying that something drastic should be done but wondering if it's going to happen.
 
calodo2003 said:
Absolutely not. Their safety doesn’t get them donations from their mentally deficient constituency. Sure, you will see pics of idiots like MarkWayne Dumbfeck out of Oklahoma cowering behind a bench, scared out of his wits about the mob right outside the door to the chamber in which he was, but when presented a possibility of gun control that would help keep him, his family, & his constituents safer v. losing an election & losing campaign funds, he will always go for the win & the funds. It’s been proven again& again.

Freedumb & all that.
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That makes sense.
 
JPRouve said:
It's a question not a thought. I'm not saying that something drastic should be done but wondering if it's going to happen.
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No, I understand, I have the same question/hope. I'm just disillusioned when I think about the kind of change that realistically will be effected in reaction to this.
 
Hansi Fick said:
AOC is so good at Twitter.
Seriously good, you can almost say she's mastering it; which is difficult with a medium that has such nightmarish power and irresistible capability to suck its users in, make them lose the plot, and subjugate them to its prefered discourse mode of hysteria, smugness, vanity, excessive combativeness, personalization, and incapacity to restrainst and drawing lines.
She's never taking the eye off the ball, as most others do eventually tweeting. I admire this quality very much in her, it's rare, and am very thankful for it.
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She's a nerd who gives a shit, a powerful combo. Hope she stays in it for the long haul but I fear the prospect of a lifetime of abuse and threats against her and her family may take its toll at some point.
 
MTF said:
Its a bit shit punishment though. I mean, the whole thing is kinda unconstitutional to begin with. People don't know if they're on it, don't have any recourse. Yeah, put the domestic terrorists on it with the international terrorists... seems fair. But the whole thing is really a bit shit. Either people have committed crimes and should be charged and tried for them, or they haven't and shouldn't suffer penalties just on suspicion.

This is in no way a defense of the terrorists, its just like I said... I want them convicted of their actual crimes, not placed extrajudicially on some shady list.
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I'm thinking its less of a punishment and more of a preventative security measure by the FBI to restrict the travel of these people to further "protests" in the coming weeks.
 
calodo2003 said:
In absolutely no way should it make sense, but it unfortunately does!
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It makes sense because it's a self-centered response from selfserving politicians. Your anticipation is in line with the way those people seemingly think.
 
Simbo said:
She's a nerd who gives a shit, a powerful combo. Hope she stays in it for the long haul but I fear the prospect of a lifetime of abuse and threats against her and her family may take its toll at some point.
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we’ll see, she seems tough
 
Simbo said:
I'm thinking its less of a punishment and more of a preventative security measure by the FBI to restrict the travel of these people to further "protests" in the coming weeks.
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Completely this.

This will obviously be contested in the courts, but limiting these idiots’ ability to move quickly around the country & to evacuate from where they just committed a crime is paramount now.

No doubt we will see far more mask wearing by the rioters in the next week l, but not for safety sake. We will see it for the obfuscation sake. This travel ban is a logical step to limit immediate future carnage.
 
JPRouve said:
It makes sense because it's a self-centered response from selfserving politicians. Your anticipation is in line with the way those people seemingly think.
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You’re absolutely right, yet it’s still shocking that such lines of thought exist.

When you get to the batshittery level of some of these idiots, even losing their own child to gun violence most likely wouldn’t sway their views.
 
Maticmaker said:
I would agree with that, leaving aside Trumpism and the nonsense that surrounds him, to me there is something wrong with people not bothering to turn up and vote in person. Yes I know there are valid reasons for postal votes; disability, working away from home at election time, etc. lots of other legitimate reasons.
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This is where you should've ended your post.
 
The argument against In-person voting falls flat when the same people arguing against it are breaking their backs to close voting centers.
 
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