*14* games without a clean sheet at Old Trafford

Loony BoB said:
The problem here is that while fixing that issue, it will put us back to boring Jose days. We'd likely see notably fewer goals conceded, but also notably fewer goals scored. Personally if I had to pick, I'd prefer a high scoring, high conceding game over a 0-0. It's the reason I opted to support United instead of other teams like Liverpool who at the time of me getting into football were very boring to watch.

But if you look at our coaching team, who is the defensive coach? What pedigree do they have? I think our attack is fine, what we need to solve is the defence. Buy a real defence coach, one with proven pedigree, to control our defensive actions and structure. This is something we need more than a change of manager, in my opinion. We should still be an attacking side like we are at the moment when we have the ball, but we need a rapid change of action in how we manage our defence.
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How so? When he won the League with Chelsea they were a good side to watch. They scored more goals than we have at any time under Ole, and he got just as many goals as Liverpool did when they won the league, and they certainly weren't boring. His Inter side scored more goals than anyone in the league (apart from Atalanta) when they won it. I think this perception of him as this boring, pragmatic manager is a little off, to be honest.
 
We’ve had periods of great defensive records with worse players under Ole, so I do think the question is an interesting one.

I think it’s come with Ole moving away from a system he could coach (putting 8 men behind the ball and doing teams on the break with a rapid front-three) to a system he cannot (a more front-foot, offensive and progressive one).

Ignore the personnel like Ronaldo or Pogba and whether they could cope in a high-pressing system or not - I think it’s fairly obvious Ole has no idea how to set one up anyway. We can’t build up from the back despite having 3 decent ball-playing central-defenders, and a couple of technically sound left-backs (goalkeeper and right-back leave a bit to be desired) and he plays midfielders who cannot contribute in those early phases of play either.

Our ‘pressing’ consists of Bruno running about like a headless chicken until he gets frustrated and starts throwing his arms in the air in frustration at everybody else, not unlike Alexis actually. After that you might get a bit from McFred or even more strangely our fullbacks.

It’s almost like Ole knows he cannot afford to play a deep-block anymore because of the personnel at his disposal, so he’s moved the defensive line further up the pitch and asked his forwards to hold their shape higher, but done absolutely no further coaching past that.

Compare us to a team that exists in the opposition half and barely ever has a defender deeper than halfway like City - despite playing a front 5 of diminutive football wizards they’re so much harder to play through than us. It feels like this season if the opposition manages to string 5 passes together they’ll be causing our back-line issues. It’s infuriating.
 
Loony BoB said:
Sir Alex was never an incredible defensive coach either, he has admitted that himself. This is absolutely the fault of the collective coaching team. Our defence coaching staff needs to dramatically improve, and in all likelihood the players need a better shield in the midfield on top of that.
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No but you don't have to be when a lot of his teams could blow sides away going forward. Also some of his best teams were elite defensively, like that 07/08 side.
 
Valencia Shin Crosses said:
No but you don't have to be when a lot of his teams could blow sides away going forward. Also some of his best teams were elite defensively, like that 07/08 side.
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Yes, because SAF had an excellent defensive coaching team (and generally had good shields, too). This is the number one things that needs changing in my opinion.
 
BusbyMalone said:
How so? When he won the League with Chelsea they were a good side to watch. They scored more goals than we have at any time under Ole, and he got just as many goals as Liverpool did when they won the league, and they certainly weren't boring. His Inter side scored more goals than anyone in the league (apart from Atalanta) when they won it. I think this perception of him as this boring, pragmatic manager is a little off, to be honest.
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Umm no it's not. It's been proven at this point that Jose was essentially a good "one style" manager that has since been overtaken by more flexible managers that can adapt in different styles to their teams. Jose teams in later years have been consistently underperforming and overwhelmed by teams that press high and can snuff the predictable counters, and he doesn't have any sort of idea how to set his teams up in possession.
 
Fergie had some imperfections in certain areas but he was open-minded to learn from mistakes and delegate work to qualified people whom he had previously signed himself.

Ole is and does none of it.
 
BusbyMalone said:
How so? When he won the League with Chelsea they were a good side to watch. They scored more goals than we have at any time under Ole, and he got just as many goals as Liverpool did when they won the league, and they certainly weren't boring. His Inter side scored more goals than anyone in the league (apart from Atalanta) when they won it. I think this perception of him as this boring, pragmatic manager is a little off, to be honest.
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You know what, I'm going to concede on this point, I based this on reputation as I haven't followed enough of Conte's sides to judge better. I just keep getting told he plays very defensively by everyone and as I had no reason to say otherwise I thought it was true. Let it not be said I don't admit if I'm wrong! :D Thanks for correcting me and apologies for my misunderstanding.
 
Valencia Shin Crosses said:
Umm no it's not. It's been proven at this point that Jose was essentially a good "one style" manager that has since been overtaken by more flexible managers that can adapt in different styles to their teams. Jose teams in later years have been consistently underperforming and overwhelmed by teams that press high and can snuff the predictable counters, and he doesn't have any sort of idea how to set his teams up in possession.
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His reply was regarding Conte, it's not immediately obvious from the quote of mine he made, but I was saying that Conte would be similar to Jose, Busby was just pointing out that Conte isn't actually as defensive as Jose.
 
Valencia Shin Crosses said:
Umm no it's not. It's been proven at this point that Jose was essentially a good "one style" manager that has since been overtaken by more flexible managers that can adapt in different styles to their teams. Jose teams in later years have been consistently underperforming and overwhelmed by teams that press high and can snuff the predictable counters, and he doesn't have any sort of idea how to set his teams up in possession.
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What are you talking about? I'm talking about Conte here
 
Loony BoB said:
You know what, I'm going to concede on this point, I based this on reputation as I haven't followed enough of Conte's sides to judge better. I just keep getting told he plays very defensively by everyone and as I had no reason to say otherwise I thought it was true. Let it not be said I don't admit if I'm wrong! :D Thanks for correcting me and apologies for my misunderstanding.
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Haha. Fair enough mate!

Trust me - we've all been there (myself included)
 
3 man midfield would be a good start. Bring Bruno deeper.
 
BusbyMalone said:
What are you talking about? I'm talking about Conte here
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Completely misunderstood my fault. I agree Conte isn't as defensive as people think, but your post gave me flashbacks to exactly what people were saying about Jose years ago (even down to the same clubs) so I thought you were still arguing Jose wasn't very defensive and was misunderstood.
 
Don't worry guys .. Harry and co have analysed it and are on top of the issue now.

 
GaryLifo said:
exactly. They probably planned this assuming he would start the game. So when he came on they were rubbing their hands together.


You don't need everyone to do it anyway. Liverpool's front 3 don't all go and press all at the same time. One of them usually gets into position to receive it if the press works and they win possession back. If all 3 were around the ball then there's no width.
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I was joking. But i agree with what you are saying.
 
Loony BoB said:
The problem here is that while fixing that issue, it will put us back to boring Jose days. We'd likely see notably fewer goals conceded, but also notably fewer goals scored. Personally if I had to pick, I'd prefer a high scoring, high conceding game over a 0-0. It's the reason I opted to support United instead of other teams like Liverpool who at the time of me getting into football were very boring to watch.

But if you look at our coaching team, who is the defensive coach? What pedigree do they have? I think our attack is fine, what we need to solve is the defence. Buy a real defence coach, one with proven pedigree, to control our defensive actions and structure. This is something we need more than a change of manager, in my opinion. We should still be an attacking side like we are at the moment when we have the ball, but we need a rapid change of action in how we manage our defence.
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Exactly.

If we fix the defence it would be the biggest step forward we could take
 
The only time we went longer in our entire history without a clean sheet at Old Trafford was after the Munich Air Disaster killed or incapacitated half of our team.

 
Yeah but it just means we're one of the most entertaining teams to watch in the league or something.
 
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