Why do some people say Keane is a defensive midfielder?

RedRonaldo

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I heard some people said Keane is one of the best defensive midfielder we've ever seen. I keep arguing he's not, Keane by all means is a central midfielder but not a defensive midfielder. He is box-to-box, Robson type of midfielder, but not the Makelele type of defensive midfielder who only sits in front of the back four. But they disagree with me and said there are lots of different types of defensive midfielder too, so some DM will particpate in attack whereas some will not. WTF.

Now when I try to explain to them back in those time when we played 442, there's not such thing as DM or AM in our system, but only CM. They then said we played more like diamond, with Scholes taking up the attacking role and Keane taking up the defensive role. What???

I think I give up already. So what do you all reckon?
 
I get incredibly wound up when people slap this tag on him. I cannot stress enough how stupid it is, and it always seems to be the FM Ihni binni dimi diniwiny anitaime on here that say it.
I have never met anyone in my life who thinks Keane was a defensive midfielder. He wasn't limited to such a tag and was more like that of an Essien.
 
KingEric7 said:
I get incredibly wound up when people slap this tag on him. I cannot stress enough how stupid it is, and it always seems to be the FM Ihni binni dimi diniwiny anitaime on here that say it.
I have never met anyone in my life who thinks Keane was a defensive midfielder. He wasn't limited to such a tag and was more like that of an Essien.
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Except Essien recently said he thinks his best position is as a defensive midfielder. IMO, that makes sense, he doesn't have the goal threat or creativity that Keano had, in his pomp.

Keane >>> Essien
 
Hmm, i wasn't aware he said that. He's a player i enjoy watching because he is so complete. He isn't as limited as someone like Makalele, and can play more or less every position in defence and midfield very well. He is a rich man's John o' Shea, if you like.
There won't be another Keane, but it's worth noting that Essien still has some way to reach his prime yet.
 
He was solid defensively. For United he obviously got alot of chances to go forwards still, but next to Scholes he was the more defensively minded player. It's easy to label one as an AM and one a DM (even though Keane got forward, and Scholes has always dropped deep to build attacks) and although it doesn't describe the way they played perfectly it isn't a totally wrong description.

Comparing him to Makelele is a bit wrong. Makelele is a continental DM. You don't have to be like him to be classed as a DM. I guess you could say keane was a defensive centre mid (DCM?), whereas Makelele is just a defensive mid. In a 442 you don't really get out and out DMs, but you do get one player who is more defensively minded generally.
 
KingEric7 said:
Hmm, i wasn't aware he said that. He's a player i enjoy watching because he is so complete. He isn't as limited as someone like Makalele, and can play more or less every position in defence and midfield very well. He is a rich man's John o' Shea, if you like.
There won't be another Keane, but it's worth noting that Essien still has some way to reach his prime yet.
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That's an excellent description, actually!

FWIW, I think Essien is a phenomenal player. But I don't rate his passing quite as highly as Keano's. People seem to always remember Keane for his crunching tackles and energy but the accuracy of his passing was also incredible.
 
When did the term "Defensive midfielder" first get bandied about?
When I was growing up, there were excellent midfielders playing in Division 1 -Robbo, Souness, Reid, Hoddle & Molby for example.
Despite being quite different as players and having different strengths (e.g. Molby could eat the most pies!) I never heard them being tagged as anything other than midfielders.
When did this change? Was is when Makelele was inflicted upon the world?

Keane was just a great player that happened to have enough energy in his early career to run for miles during a match. Injuries and age slowed him down eventually but he was never a defensive player!
 
klebersomeone said:
When did the term "Defensive midfielder" first get bandied about?When I was growing up, there were excellent midfielders playing in Division 1 -Robbo, Souness, Reid, Hoddle & Molby for example.
Despite being quite different as players and having different strengths (e.g. Molby could eat the most pies!) I never heard them being tagged as anything other than midfielders.
When did this change? Was is when Makelele was inflicted upon the world?

Keane was just a great player that happened to have enough energy in his early career to run for miles during a match. Injuries and age slowed him down eventually but he was never a defensive player!
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When teams started playing 5 in midfield, on a regular basis. That allowed them the luxury of an extra central midfielder who could focus exclusively on shielding the back four. Started in the continent, fcuk knows when.

Keao always played (apart from his last season or so, when he was knacked) as part of a central midfield pair, hence he was never a genuine defensive midfielder.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
When teams started playing 5 in midfield, on a regular basis. That allowed them the luxury of an extra central midfielder who could focus exclusively on shielding the back four. Started in the continent, fcuk knows when.

Keao always played (apart from his last season or so, when he was knacked) as part of a central midfield pair, hence he was never a genuine defensive midfielder.
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So you're saying you only have a DM in a 5 man midfield - put the same player in a 4-4-2 formation and he becomes something else?? A NEDM (a not entirely defensive midfielder) perhaps?
 
He was a midfielder. Breaking it down any more than that is gay.
 
klebersomeone said:
So you're saying you only have a DM in a 5 man midfield - put the same player in a 4-4-2 formation and he becomes something else?? A NEDM (a not entirely defensive midfielder) perhaps?
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Yep. Except I didn't use the abbreviation "DM". 'Cause I've never played Football Manager ;)

Players play positions, they don't walk round with labels on them. When O'Shea plays at full-back, he's a full-back. When he anchors a 3 man midfield, he's a holding midfielder. When he plays as one of two in midfield he's a straightforward central midfielder.

Complicating it any more than that is, IMO, kind of spasticated.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Yep. Except I didn't use the abbreviation "DM". 'Cause I've never played Football Manager ;)

Players play positions, they don't walk round with labels on them. When O'Shea plays at full-back, he's a full-back. When he anchors a 3 man midfield, he's a holding midfielder. When he plays as one of two in midfield he's a straightforward central midfielder.

Complicating it any more than that is, IMO, kind of spasticated.
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Aren't you a mind of information :rolleyes:
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Except Essien recently said he thinks his best position is as a defensive midfielder. IMO, that makes sense, he doesn't have the goal threat or creativity that Keano had, in his pomp.

Keane >>> Essien
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I agree with you with the exception of those 40-50 yard bombs Essien likes to drop a few times a season.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Yep. Except I didn't use the abbreviation "DM". 'Cause I've never played Football Manager ;)

Players play positions, they don't walk round with labels on them. When O'Shea plays at full-back, he's a full-back. When he anchors a 3 man midfield, he's a holding midfielder. When he plays as one of two in midfield he's a straightforward central midfielder.

Complicating it any more than that is, IMO, kind of spasticated.
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Bollocks.

So are Owen, Heskey and Rooney all just centre forwards? No. They each have a different role that they are more suited to. Heskey is a target man striker. Rooney is a 'striker-who-drops-deep-and-gets involved' (cant think of a shorter term for it). It doesn't mean that all Heskey does is stand upfront and win headers, nor does it mean that all Rooney does is always drops deep and never run in behind. Likewise - calling Keane a defensive midfielder doesn't mean he was just a defensive midfielder and never got forward or any bollocks like that.

Is it worth distinguishing between players like Rooney and Heskey, or Keane and Scholes? Yes of course it fecking is!
 
Rowem said:
Bollocks.

So are Owen, Heskey and Rooney all just centre forwards? No. They each have a different role that they are more suited to. Heskey is a target man striker. Rooney is a 'striker-who-drops-deep-and-gets involved' (cant think of a shorter term for it). It doesn't mean that all Heskey does is stand upfront and win headers, nor does it mean that all Rooney does is always drops deep and never run in behind. Likewise - calling Keane a defensive midfielder doesn't mean he was just a defensive midfielder and never got forward or any bollocks like that.

Is it worth distinguishing between players like Rooney and Heskey, or Keane and Scholes? Yes of course it fecking is!
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Whenever I play/played football the coach says "you're centre forward" or "you're full-back".

Funnily enough, I don't remember him saying "you're our striker-who-drops-deep-and-gets involved" or "you're our attacking-full-back-who-isn't-great-in-the-air-but-has-a-great-engine-and-a-decent-left-peg"

There are eleven positions on the football field. I don't understand why some people insist on making it so fecking complicated.

And of course Owen, Rooney and Heskey are different players. But they are all strikers, at the end of the day. You know? Players who play up front?
 
There's a little difference between Sunday League football and Proffesional. It's a little more complicated than just shoving 11 players into 11 positions.
 
Q : Why do some people say Keane is a defensive midfielder?

A : Because they play too much football manager.

He did end up as a defensive midfielder though because of injuries taking their toll, but the Roy Keane in his prime was box to box.
 
Rowem said:
There's a little difference between Sunday League football and Proffesional. It's a little more complicated than just shoving 11 players into 11 positions.
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Not really.

Don't care if it's Sunday league or not. It's 11 vs 11, one ball and two goals, whether you're playing on the beach at Copacabana or in the Camp Nou. That's why it's called the Beautiful Game. It's simplicity is it's greatest strength.

If you want to discuss a game with 15-20 different positions, maybe you should watch the NFL?

(I almost said "jumpers for goal-posts" there, God I'm getting old...)
 
Lol. Wow. There's no debating with such simple idiocy as that.

If you were to argue that Keane was not a DM because he was a box-to-box mid then I would respectfully disagree (well, I'd partly agree).

To argue that there is no point distinguishing between different styles of centre midfielder (or other positions) is just moronic.
 
Rowem said:
Lol. Wow. There's no debating with such simple idiocy as that.

If you were to argue that Keane was not a DM because he was a box-to-box mid then I would respectfully disagree (well, I'd partly agree).

To argue that there is no point distinguishing between different styles of centre midfielder (or other positions) is just moronic.
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My point is that it's possible for two players to have extremely different styles but play the exact same position.

Tevez and Torres = strikers.
Makalele, Keane and Scholes = all central midfielders.

What I've said there is entirely factually correct. These are the positions they play. They may play these positions very differently but that doesn't mean you have to think up a new name for the position.

Well, if your only exposure to footy is Football Manager, maybe you do...
 
RedRonaldo said:
I heard some people said Keane is one of the best defensive midfielder we've ever seen. I keep arguing he's not, Keane by all means is a central midfielder but not a defensive midfielder.
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There's no such thing as a mere "central midfielder". Central midfielder's have clearly defined roles. Keane had a role and his main role was to win the ball and protect our defence. The job of a defenisive midfielder. There is no rule that states by doing this it stop him from being one because he was a box to box player also.

RedRonaldo said:
He is box-to-box, Robson type of midfielder, but not the Makelele type of defensive midfielder who only sits in front of the back four.
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Don't mix attributes with positions/roles. Being box to box is an attribute. Not a definite role on a football pitch. Keane was a Defensive midfielder. A proper one. Makelele who sit isn't.
He is a sitting/3rd center back/old style sweeper type that doesn't function as a true midfielder at all. Because true midfielders contribute to attacking and midfield play. It's pretty simple.. That is what confuses people about the position "defensive midfielder". When false ones like Makelele a classes as such.

And FYI a true DM is a midfielder first and a defensive player second. Which Keane was. Makelele is nothing like that for he doesn't function like a midfielder. All he does is defend. While contributing zilch to attacking or mdfield play

RedRonaldo said:
But they disagree with me and said there are lots of different types of defensive midfielder too, so some DM will particpate in attack whereas some will not. WTF..
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Exactly WTF :eek:

RedRonaldo said:
Now when I try to explain to them back in those time when we played 442, there's not such thing as DM or AM in our system, but only CM.
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That's just silly. Keanre mainly won the ball back and Scholes mainly attacked. There roles where clearly defined. Keane was clearly the mainly defensive partner in the pairing.

RedRonaldo said:
They then said we played more like diamond, with Scholes taking up the attacking role and Keane taking up the defensive role. What???
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I agree. What?:eek:

That's true insanity. You don't need to have played a diamond to have a had a DM alongside an AM.


RedRonaldo said:
I think I give up already. So what do you all reckon?
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That Keane was a TRUE defensive midfielder:cool:
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Leaving it as that is an act that deserves a firing squad. He was way more than that
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I know you love the semantics of a technical argument, but I'm not going there.

If someone who didn't know much football asked me where Keane played, I'd say a midfielder because, y'know, thats where he played.

You would no doubt go on to write a thesis on the purities of Keane's positional sense and attributes, none of which would be of the slightest interest.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Well, if your only exposure to footy is Football Manager, maybe you do...
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Lol, you're a retard.

Because I think it's worth distinguishing between different players that means I play football manager? NO! It means I watch football with my fecking eyes open you thick cnut. I see how players play in real life, their movement, positioning and instincts. Those are what determines a players style, not a list of numbers on a fecking screen you fecking idiot, so how does that insult even make any fecking sense whatsoever?

Do you not think it's important to see the difference in style, whether it be about DMs/CMs or whether it's about a team as a whole. Guess what:

Chelsea and Arsenal = Football teams.

However, Chelsea play the most boring shite I've ever had the misfortune to witness and Arsenal play fantastic attacking football. Oh, wait, none of that matters all that matters is that both are a football team and going into any more detail would just be pointless. Oh, and VDS and Ronaldo are both footballers, guess you might aswell put Ronnie in goal and VDS on the wing! fecking hell, how do you have so many posts on a football forum yet be so fecking clueless about...well....football!

Btw, I've never played Football Manager in my life. Seeing as it's a favourite insult of caftards perhaps I should download it and see what all the fecking fuss is about.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
There's no such thing as a mere "central midfielder". Central midfielder's have clearly defined roles. Keane had a role and his main role was to win the ball and protect our defence. The job of a defenisive midfielder. There is no rule that states by doing this it stop him from being one because he was a box to box player also.

Don't mix attributes with positions/roles. Being box to box is an attribute. Not a definite role on a football pitch. Keane was a Defensive midfielder. A proper one. Makelele who sit isn't.
He is a sitting/3rd center back/old style sweeper type that doesn't function as a true midfielder at all. Because true midfielders contribute to attacking and midfield play. It's pretty simple.. That is what confuses people about the position "defensive midfielder". When false ones like Makelele a classes as such.

And FYI a true DM is a midfielder first and a defensive player second. Which Keane was. Makelele is nothing like that for he doesn't function like a midfielder. All he does is defend. While contributing zilch to attacking or mdfield play


Exactly WTF :eek:


That's just silly. Keanre mainly won the ball back and Scholes mainly attacked. There roles where clearly defined. Keane was clearly the mainly defensive partner in the pairing.

I agree. What?:eek:

That's true insanity. You don't need to have played a diamond to have a had a DM alongside an AM.


That Keane was a TRUE defensive midfielder:cool:
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That's the problem. Those who argue with me hold the same exact views as you do. I think that has to do with how one define the term "defensive midfielder" then.
Interesting though if you look into Wikipedia, they never group Keane as a defensive midfielder, rather they either say Keane is a midfielder or a box-to-box midfielder.

Check it out here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midfielder
 
Pogue Mahone said:
My point is that it's possible for two players to have extremely different styles but play the exact same position.

Tevez and Torres = strikers.
Makalele, Keane and Scholes = all central midfielders.

What I've said there is entirely factually correct. These are the positions they play. They may play these positions very differently but that doesn't mean you have to think up a new name for the position.

Well, if your only exposure to footy is Football Manager, maybe you do...
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Yes, but you're not breaking down into the specifics. You can be even more vague and say Ronaldo and Scholes are both midfielders. Factually correct? Yes
 
Rowem said:
Lol, you're a retard.

Because I think it's worth distinguishing between different players that means I play football manager? NO! It means I watch football with my fecking eyes open you thick cnut. I see how players play in real life, their movement, positioning and instincts. Those are what determines a players style, not a list of numbers on a fecking screen you fecking idiot, so how does that insult even make any fecking sense whatsoever?

Do you not think it's important to see the difference in style, whether it be about DMs/CMs or whether it's about a team as a whole. Guess what:

Chelsea and Arsenal = Football teams.

However, Chelsea play the most boring shite I've ever had the misfortune to witness and Arsenal play fantastic attacking football. Oh, wait, none of that matters all that matters is that both are a football team and going into any more detail would just be pointless. Oh, and VDS and Ronaldo are both footballers, guess you might aswell put Ronnie in goal and VDS on the wing! fecking hell, how do you have so many posts on a football forum yet be so fecking clueless about...well....football!

Btw, I've never played Football Manager in my life. Seeing as it's a favourite insult of caftards perhaps I should download it and see what all the fecking fuss is about.
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You need to chill the feck out you irritating little cnut. If you're too thick to argue your case rationally, without throwing your toys out the pram, this message board is probably not for you.

For the last time, I'm not talking about players "styles" I'm talking about their positions. Keane played in central midfield, end of story.

As for his style, as a central midfielder? Call it what you want. All action. Box to box. Dynamic. All-round. Complete. Whatever. I really couldn't give a shit.

This whole thread was about how stupid it is/was to pigeon-hole Keano as a "DM". I assumed that the only people thick enough to do this would be FM addicts. You say you've never played the game so well done, you've proved me wrong on that point.

Pity you're so far wide of the mark with everything else you've said.
 
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