Hiring Ten Hag who spent the GDP of a small country building a squad of absolute crap, most of which are impossible to shift.
United’s Worst Decisions of the Last 12 Years
- Thread starter ole@thewheel
- Start date
Ten Hag's recruitment gets worse the more you look at it. Truly disastrous giving him power over it.
You'd have thought he would have fluked a semi competent signing but they're all bad or made of glass fibre.
Hiring Erik definitely the worst. Worst manager on account of resources used and how disjointed the squad was as a result of his management.
From Rio-Vidič (plus decent supporting cast) to Maguire-Lindelof rotated with very old Evans - ruined by injuries Jones - and a couple at least proper PL athleets in Bailly-Rojo but lacking a bit in other areas to match Ferdinand-Nemanja output.
About time United hit the jackpot here. The prospect of fully developed Yoro-Heaven combo is mouthwatering. It will coincide with Rubens interview admiting "That third centreback alongside them two is now redundant. I feel for Mathijs, a rather semi-decent stop-gap signing.
"But he´s not needed anymore. These two aggresive, fast, strong units cover all the space defensively. Also technically so talented theres zero need of a third man back there helping with the built up."
Amorim suggested he will use a spare man as another central midfielder but did not rule out placing an extra body right up top. "Yes I can already see it shaping up late in this season against teams on the beach already. Lenny-Aiden in front of Altay, Amad and Patrick on sides, Manuel and Case holing, Nacho Bruno and Zirk/Rasmus forward with Chido Obi ahead of them in the penalty box. We need to score way more goals."
About time United hit the jackpot here. The prospect of fully developed Yoro-Heaven combo is mouthwatering. It will coincide with Rubens interview admiting "That third centreback alongside them two is now redundant. I feel for Mathijs, a rather semi-decent stop-gap signing.
"But he´s not needed anymore. These two aggresive, fast, strong units cover all the space defensively. Also technically so talented theres zero need of a third man back there helping with the built up."
Amorim suggested he will use a spare man as another central midfielder but did not rule out placing an extra body right up top. "Yes I can already see it shaping up late in this season against teams on the beach already. Lenny-Aiden in front of Altay, Amad and Patrick on sides, Manuel and Case holing, Nacho Bruno and Zirk/Rasmus forward with Chido Obi ahead of them in the penalty box. We need to score way more goals."
Agreed.There’s so much to undo from his time here.
Murtough and Arnold were disastrous. How could they make the deals they made looking at the direction our financial situation was heading. Spending the amounts we did on Mount, Hojlund, Anthony, and Onana is beyond stupid.
Ten Hag should have been told that spending big money on Mount was out of the question because he was recovering from a long term injury and almost out of contract.
He should have been told we didn't have big money to spend replacing a Goalkeeper he just changed his mind about at the very end of the season.
That amount of money on Anthony was just brain-dead and everyone should have known it was asking for trouble.
And spending so much on a young unproven Striker that would have no back up was not only stupid but it was unfair to the player.
Ten Hag should have been told that spending big money on Mount was out of the question because he was recovering from a long term injury and almost out of contract.
He should have been told we didn't have big money to spend replacing a Goalkeeper he just changed his mind about at the very end of the season.
That amount of money on Anthony was just brain-dead and everyone should have known it was asking for trouble.
And spending so much on a young unproven Striker that would have no back up was not only stupid but it was unfair to the player.
Fans not trying to overthrow the club and force glazers to sell in 2014.
If we just stormed the pitch each league game we may have been relegated but we'd be in much much better shape today.
If we just stormed the pitch each league game we may have been relegated but we'd be in much much better shape today.
I seem to recall this happening. I think it had something to do with his wife Truus but I don't remember any of the details. But in any case if he were to leave by end of the following season, he will certainly have given Woodward recommendation for a successor aligned with his 'philosophy' (with Stuivenberg probably staying put). Whether Woodward was willing to listen to him on this is another story.
I also happen to think that 2015/16, while obviously underwhelming for our standards, was quite decent. We won our first post-Fergie silverware (a major trophy we hadn't lift for a decade or so at the time) the Charity Shield aside and only missed out on Champions League qualification on goal difference. That season some of the football played on the pitch was dire, certainly, but I distinctly remember thinking 'at long last', at long last I was seeing what our players were trying to do.
Spot on. Moyes' appointment genuinely set the tone for all our post-Fergie chaos.
He didn't sign ten duds or play a big role in squad-shaping for that matter, sure, but ultimately he inherited a squad of champions to seventh and in the process lost the changing room (with some senior players openly questioned him), squandered the momentum Fergie left behind (like you said by sacking the coaching staff), alienated fans and exposed a sheer lack of a rational succession plan -- eroding any shred of aura and confidence left within the club from top to bottom and left to right.
I have no hard feelings for him but he was so out of depth the wound he left us with is deeper than any Ten Hag transfer window.
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Andre Onana - even from his YouTube highlights, many posters here had misgivings at how awkward he was with the ball and how he often parried it right into the danger zone.
Sacking Jose Mourinho and not giving him the backing he needed in the transfer market was the worst decision for me … opportunity wasted then giving the job to Ole and the money too was madness it’s why we are here today j
I was at the FA Cup final and remember it being a bit surreal. From memory, I can’t remember whether we found out he was likely to be sacked right at the end of the game or on the way home.
It was certainly very poorly handled.
I see too much focus on specific managers or players when in my opinion most of the damage was done from the top down and the rest was a direct consequence of that.
Moyes was an obvious mistake, but could have been solved in one season by having competent management in the football division. The Glazers appointed Woodward, an expert in negotiating deals with sponsors and nothing more, to replace the succesful Fergie-Gill duo.
After accumulating several years of terrible decisions on hiring/supporting/replacing managers and signing/firing/negotiating with players, United owners finally panicked after the Super League protests and decide to hire a proper football guy as a consultant in a role close to Director of Football. Then they almost immediately backtracked and appointed him as an interim manager, which killed his credit and doomed the project. He left for another project at his NT after announcing very clearly that United needs an open heart surgery in both football squad and approach as a club.
United owners responded to this very clear, specific diagnosis and treatment suggestion by appointing another commercial/sponsorship guy as Director of Football. This one however came with a different approach: he'll get whatever the manager wants nevermind the cost, and if they had appointed the new SAF it might have worked. But they hired Ten Hag who got a handful of terrible signings at a high cost and somehow managed to leave a worst squad than the one United had when he was hired.
Later they appointed a new director again, only to lose him after the club's decision to renew the managers contract before firing him three months later (squandering another transfer window in the process). Then they moved another guy they brought to the DoF position and hired another manager that A) prefered to arrive at the end of the season and B) has a total different tactical approach which means the squad will have to be restructured one again. So kind of a return to the Woodward years.
In the meantime the owners and DoF had two opportunities to show what were they made of, and oh boy did they show everyone. Greenwood's situation was a textbook case in which it's more important to show strength and resolve by making a big decision and stick by it no matter what. Either go all in in supporting him, trying to make him a poster boy for owning his mistakes and "reforming" him; or swiftly cut all relations and look for a club that would want him and wouldn't mind the noise. They managed to do neither and absorbed all of the PR hit, zero on field value for the player and a very small amount of money almost a season and a half too late. The club sale process was similar: more than a season of negotiations, due diligences and expectations to end in a minority sale scenario that solves pretty much nothing and just kicks the can down the road for a few more seasons while making strategic club decisions a little slower and more difficult to make.
Moyes was an obvious mistake, but could have been solved in one season by having competent management in the football division. The Glazers appointed Woodward, an expert in negotiating deals with sponsors and nothing more, to replace the succesful Fergie-Gill duo.
After accumulating several years of terrible decisions on hiring/supporting/replacing managers and signing/firing/negotiating with players, United owners finally panicked after the Super League protests and decide to hire a proper football guy as a consultant in a role close to Director of Football. Then they almost immediately backtracked and appointed him as an interim manager, which killed his credit and doomed the project. He left for another project at his NT after announcing very clearly that United needs an open heart surgery in both football squad and approach as a club.
United owners responded to this very clear, specific diagnosis and treatment suggestion by appointing another commercial/sponsorship guy as Director of Football. This one however came with a different approach: he'll get whatever the manager wants nevermind the cost, and if they had appointed the new SAF it might have worked. But they hired Ten Hag who got a handful of terrible signings at a high cost and somehow managed to leave a worst squad than the one United had when he was hired.
Later they appointed a new director again, only to lose him after the club's decision to renew the managers contract before firing him three months later (squandering another transfer window in the process). Then they moved another guy they brought to the DoF position and hired another manager that A) prefered to arrive at the end of the season and B) has a total different tactical approach which means the squad will have to be restructured one again. So kind of a return to the Woodward years.
In the meantime the owners and DoF had two opportunities to show what were they made of, and oh boy did they show everyone. Greenwood's situation was a textbook case in which it's more important to show strength and resolve by making a big decision and stick by it no matter what. Either go all in in supporting him, trying to make him a poster boy for owning his mistakes and "reforming" him; or swiftly cut all relations and look for a club that would want him and wouldn't mind the noise. They managed to do neither and absorbed all of the PR hit, zero on field value for the player and a very small amount of money almost a season and a half too late. The club sale process was similar: more than a season of negotiations, due diligences and expectations to end in a minority sale scenario that solves pretty much nothing and just kicks the can down the road for a few more seasons while making strategic club decisions a little slower and more difficult to make.
Yeah absolutely staggering
Appointing Jose Mourinho was a huge step away from what United is or was all about. Constantly bringing the sport into disrepute. Was over the top and in decline before joining United. Old school and unable to renew and adapt.
The worst decisions come as a result of there being no planning in place to replace the genius of Ferguson. That was the point when we should've modernised and turned to data science. Instead we arrogantly thought we were different to other clubs and could continue doing things our own way. It's all snowballed into the mess we're in now.
Spending £72 million on Hojland when we should have broken the bank for Harry Kane.
Everything from the Ten Hag appointment onwards has been an absolute shit show.
Have we done anything right in this time?
Have we done anything right in this time?
Yeah not bringing in a single player for mega money on a mega salary. Thats definitely the worst decision of the last 12 years. Large distance to place 2 "not learning from past mistakes"
Well that's only half the story really isn't it? Because not only did we not spend 'mega money' on that single player (who happened to be arguably the greatest striker in the world at that point, and absolutely proven in the Premier League) but we completely and utterly wasted a huge proportion of that money on a player who would struggle to be in the top 100 strikers in the world. I don't think you can underestimate the belief, confidence and morale that bringing in a player of that calibre may have brought to the squad. Having another leader, and truly world class talent in the squad would have taken pressure away from Bruno, would have inspired the youngsters, and provided them with an excellent role model to learn from. If Fergie was around he would have absolutely broken the bank to bring somebody like Kane onboard. On its own not trying harder to sign him was a big mistake, but that mistake was doubled by spending so much money on such a mediocre player as Hojlund. Just look at the impact of not having a proper goalscorer in the team - it's the single biggest cause of where we are in the league right now, and in spite of spending the £72 million on Hojlund (and the subsequent £35 million spent on Zirkzee) we STILL need to spend a massive fee on striker or two this summer. So yeah, maybe not biggest the mistake of the last 12 years (let's face it there are plenty to choose from), but it's certainly a much bigger one than your twattish response implies. Thanks for the input though.
Should have done it in 2013, he wasn't the same after that second Chelsea sacking in 2015
And then sacking Ole to hire ETH, giving him 600 million to waste on his former players. I am sure that if Ole had spent the 600 million, we would be better than 14th!
LVG not buying Mane
Yeah there was clearly zero forward planning
There was another thread going earlier about how bad our recruitment has been and our scouting department, but it’s basically the same thread, so I’ll just reply here again, because it always keeps me thinking.
I think some things are too simple:
1) The owners. It’s certainly true the owners have done us no favors, but look at the total and net spend since Fergie retired. We certainly should have been competitive at times, and it certainly shouldn’t have ended up where we are.
2) An individual manager. It’s really a cumulative of Fergie, Moyes, LvG, Mourinho, Ole, EtH and Amorim that got us to this point. Of any managers, I’d say EtH and LvG really did the most harm, but it’s splitting hairs.
3) Lack of a DOF and consistency. I think it’s incredibly hard to know and point out who was successful during this period. Barca? Real Madrid? Chelsea? Bayern? Brighton? Brentford? Liverpool? If anything I’d say Liverpool, Brighton and Chelsea under Abrahmovic. Barca mortgaged their future during this time. Real won a ton CLs but were their managers and players a planned succession? Didn’t it all feel a bit lucky? Chelsea could’ve had Salah, De Bruyne and Lukaku. Liverpool did well, granted. City probably did the best - but after Roberto to Guardiola… we’ve never seen the succession plan.
We have to categorize what stands out about United.
1) The United Tax
2) The silver bullets and transfer sagas
3) The money in the PL
4) Luxury buys
5) Hanging on to players too long to avoid the United Tax
6) Selling useful players to make for the United Tax
7) Buying EOL players
8) The wage structure
Let’s start in order
1) The United Tax - this started under Fergie and got worse until it finally culminated in Pogba, Maguire and Sandro, and hopefully bottomed out with Anthony and Hojlund. We’re a rich club and a big club. Everytime we’re interested in a player it leaks to the press and prices go up. It’s been very hard for us to buy cheap players and we compound it with #7 - the wage structure. It’s been even worse that we wouldn’t walk away - but persist and paid waaay over the odds. It makes us, well … suckers.
2) The silver bullets and the transfer sagas. I don’t know, but it always seems like United get all caught up in the United Tax and the “silver bullet” mythology - meaning that “if we just get this one player he’ll restore us to glory.” Examples are Sneijder, Fabregas, Toni Kroos, Frenkie de Jong, etc. Players we got from this category are Pogba, Fernandes, Sancho, and eventually Varane. There are 2 distinct problems with this. The first is, we’ve spent an off-season or two seasons chasing these players publically in the media - they are hella expensive, on huge wages and aren’t the silver bullet that solved all the teams problems. The best of this lot was Bruno, with Pogba a distinct second. We spent forever on Sancho - who is a total bust, and we finally got Varane who was EOL (end of life) and ended up with huge gaps or 10th or 11th choices because we wasted time on pipe dreams that were never coming here.
3) The money in the PL. Our last big hurrahs in the PL under Fergie were probably Carrick, Berbatov and RvP - maybe Shaw. After that, it became astronomical for a few reasons. Liverpool finally got their act together, Newcastle - all of clubs - got their act together, City became a force under Fergie and a behemoth after, Chelsea are Chelsea, Tottenham are not a club we can buy from, Brighton got 100 mil from Chelsea for Ceceido. We just can’t go to West Ham, Tottenham, Aston Villa, or any of the mid/lower table clubs and take their best players for nothing. We had to pay $80 mil for Maguire, 50+ for Wan Bissaka, etc. We just can’t cherry pick the PL like we did with Fergie.
4) The luxury buys - This is one that kills and honestly, in my opinion, had just killed us. We just seemed to buy players for no particular reason, just because they were available. Mata, Sanchez, Di Maria, Van Der Beek, Ronaldo MK.2, etc. We just seemed to pop up and buy players for no particular reason other than marketing or … whatever. Nobody could tell you what gap they were filling, or how they’d make the team better. It’s just money set on fire with high wages.
5) Hanging onto players too long. So, with so much money flowing out of the club for wages on silver bullets and luxury players - and not wanting to pay the United tax for replacements. We cut costs. But we didn’t always cut those costs by going for replacements from the academy or speculative transfers from the lower leagues or foreign markets… We did it by keeping players who would only lose value or extending contracts at times … Rojo, Lindelof, Jones, Bailey, Martial, Rashford, etc.
6) Then we coupled the cost cutting measures by selling useful players. Maybe not stars - but players who could put in shift - J. Evans, Rafael, Fred, Herrera, McTominay, etc. So again, we doubled down so many times post-Fergie - blow our wad on the Silver bullets on astronomical wages, spend an absolute fortune on luxury buys that nobody - even the managers - can figure out what to do with or how they’d fit- and fund it by selling off whatever quality depth we might have.
7) The oldies. We also spent a ton of money on little to no resale value players as stop gaps on massive wages. Matic, Varane, Zlatan, Cavani, Casemiro, Ronaldo mk.2, etc. So, now, I’m going to be extremely controversial. Why is our scouting department so bad? Why don’t we identify hot new players from abroad? BECAUSE of this. We’ve spent an absolute fortune on wages and transfer fees on players who were at the very tail end of the careers. And it cost us. You may like some of these players - and Hey, I do too for couple - but the truth is we spent a boatload on them rather than trying to find the new Mbappe.
8) The wage structure - nothing has been destructive than our wage structure. I think we paid more for David de Gea than Liverpool paid Salah. We couldn’t sell players because of their wages, and then if we could sign players, their wages were sky high. So, what happened? We have players leaving on free transfers, running down their contracts until the last year and having us subsidize loans/transfers, etc. We paid wages like we were Real Madrid winning the Champions League every year, when in reality we were a team that Jose barely won the Europa League. We acted like City who won the PL back to back- but were worse than West Ham now.
What’s funny is from a stats viewpoint our best striker post Rooney isn’t van Persie - it’s Lukaku. And Lukaku totally kicks off against both Hojlund and Zirkzee - now! - this season.
I think some things are too simple:
1) The owners. It’s certainly true the owners have done us no favors, but look at the total and net spend since Fergie retired. We certainly should have been competitive at times, and it certainly shouldn’t have ended up where we are.
2) An individual manager. It’s really a cumulative of Fergie, Moyes, LvG, Mourinho, Ole, EtH and Amorim that got us to this point. Of any managers, I’d say EtH and LvG really did the most harm, but it’s splitting hairs.
3) Lack of a DOF and consistency. I think it’s incredibly hard to know and point out who was successful during this period. Barca? Real Madrid? Chelsea? Bayern? Brighton? Brentford? Liverpool? If anything I’d say Liverpool, Brighton and Chelsea under Abrahmovic. Barca mortgaged their future during this time. Real won a ton CLs but were their managers and players a planned succession? Didn’t it all feel a bit lucky? Chelsea could’ve had Salah, De Bruyne and Lukaku. Liverpool did well, granted. City probably did the best - but after Roberto to Guardiola… we’ve never seen the succession plan.
We have to categorize what stands out about United.
1) The United Tax
2) The silver bullets and transfer sagas
3) The money in the PL
4) Luxury buys
5) Hanging on to players too long to avoid the United Tax
6) Selling useful players to make for the United Tax
7) Buying EOL players
8) The wage structure
Let’s start in order
1) The United Tax - this started under Fergie and got worse until it finally culminated in Pogba, Maguire and Sandro, and hopefully bottomed out with Anthony and Hojlund. We’re a rich club and a big club. Everytime we’re interested in a player it leaks to the press and prices go up. It’s been very hard for us to buy cheap players and we compound it with #7 - the wage structure. It’s been even worse that we wouldn’t walk away - but persist and paid waaay over the odds. It makes us, well … suckers.
2) The silver bullets and the transfer sagas. I don’t know, but it always seems like United get all caught up in the United Tax and the “silver bullet” mythology - meaning that “if we just get this one player he’ll restore us to glory.” Examples are Sneijder, Fabregas, Toni Kroos, Frenkie de Jong, etc. Players we got from this category are Pogba, Fernandes, Sancho, and eventually Varane. There are 2 distinct problems with this. The first is, we’ve spent an off-season or two seasons chasing these players publically in the media - they are hella expensive, on huge wages and aren’t the silver bullet that solved all the teams problems. The best of this lot was Bruno, with Pogba a distinct second. We spent forever on Sancho - who is a total bust, and we finally got Varane who was EOL (end of life) and ended up with huge gaps or 10th or 11th choices because we wasted time on pipe dreams that were never coming here.
3) The money in the PL. Our last big hurrahs in the PL under Fergie were probably Carrick, Berbatov and RvP - maybe Shaw. After that, it became astronomical for a few reasons. Liverpool finally got their act together, Newcastle - all of clubs - got their act together, City became a force under Fergie and a behemoth after, Chelsea are Chelsea, Tottenham are not a club we can buy from, Brighton got 100 mil from Chelsea for Ceceido. We just can’t go to West Ham, Tottenham, Aston Villa, or any of the mid/lower table clubs and take their best players for nothing. We had to pay $80 mil for Maguire, 50+ for Wan Bissaka, etc. We just can’t cherry pick the PL like we did with Fergie.
4) The luxury buys - This is one that kills and honestly, in my opinion, had just killed us. We just seemed to buy players for no particular reason, just because they were available. Mata, Sanchez, Di Maria, Van Der Beek, Ronaldo MK.2, etc. We just seemed to pop up and buy players for no particular reason other than marketing or … whatever. Nobody could tell you what gap they were filling, or how they’d make the team better. It’s just money set on fire with high wages.
5) Hanging onto players too long. So, with so much money flowing out of the club for wages on silver bullets and luxury players - and not wanting to pay the United tax for replacements. We cut costs. But we didn’t always cut those costs by going for replacements from the academy or speculative transfers from the lower leagues or foreign markets… We did it by keeping players who would only lose value or extending contracts at times … Rojo, Lindelof, Jones, Bailey, Martial, Rashford, etc.
6) Then we coupled the cost cutting measures by selling useful players. Maybe not stars - but players who could put in shift - J. Evans, Rafael, Fred, Herrera, McTominay, etc. So again, we doubled down so many times post-Fergie - blow our wad on the Silver bullets on astronomical wages, spend an absolute fortune on luxury buys that nobody - even the managers - can figure out what to do with or how they’d fit- and fund it by selling off whatever quality depth we might have.
7) The oldies. We also spent a ton of money on little to no resale value players as stop gaps on massive wages. Matic, Varane, Zlatan, Cavani, Casemiro, Ronaldo mk.2, etc. So, now, I’m going to be extremely controversial. Why is our scouting department so bad? Why don’t we identify hot new players from abroad? BECAUSE of this. We’ve spent an absolute fortune on wages and transfer fees on players who were at the very tail end of the careers. And it cost us. You may like some of these players - and Hey, I do too for couple - but the truth is we spent a boatload on them rather than trying to find the new Mbappe.
8) The wage structure - nothing has been destructive than our wage structure. I think we paid more for David de Gea than Liverpool paid Salah. We couldn’t sell players because of their wages, and then if we could sign players, their wages were sky high. So, what happened? We have players leaving on free transfers, running down their contracts until the last year and having us subsidize loans/transfers, etc. We paid wages like we were Real Madrid winning the Champions League every year, when in reality we were a team that Jose barely won the Europa League. We acted like City who won the PL back to back- but were worse than West Ham now.
What’s funny is from a stats viewpoint our best striker post Rooney isn’t van Persie - it’s Lukaku. And Lukaku totally kicks off against both Hojlund and Zirkzee - now! - this season.
Didn't he always want scousers
Your 4th point is interesting considering we stopped buying "luxury" players under ten hag and we got much worse instead.
Happy to provide input whenever it is needed.
I can see where you are coming from but that is mixing a lot of things together, some of them obviously look very different now with the luxury of hindsight, others are pure speculation and some are kind of unrelated. I agree with you, we shouldn't have spend so much money on Hojlund because such an outlay always comes with its own risks. But he was bought for his potential, talent and the possibility, to bring in a player, that could be the mainstay for years and will keep a resale value. Again, I also wouldn't have paid so much, but that doesn't mean, spending it on Kane would have been a more sensible idea. You simply can't know what kind of effect such a transfer would have had, all things considered it wouldn't have changed Shaw being injury prone, Dalot being not an attacking fullback and us making bad decisions for years at that point. If we want to speculate, we might as well speculate, that the mood around us would have dragged Kane down.
I guess, I'll take you stating that it probably isn't the single worst decision. I personally would lable it a step in the right direction because throwing such an amount of money on one aging player would have been exactle the continuation of bad recruitment especially in the sense of long term planning. I agree though, not making this particular mistake hasn't stopped us from making other costly mistakes. I'd say especially so in the striker department where created a situation where we are now sitting with two young strikers without a particular track record with both needing minutes to realize whatever potential there is while being scrutinized due to the high pressure environment. Big mistake, no doubt about it.
Where it all began: not managing the squad overhaul in the years immediately following SAF and relying on mediocre or ageing players. (Moyes+LvG era)
How it went on: Signing better players but in panic mode and more and more saying goodbye to any kind of concept on how to play football. At the same time, destroying any realistic salary structure (Mou era)
The Solskjaer days: Small, fleeting waves of euphoria determine important future decisions. This applies to Ole's hiring itself as well as to the numerous contract extensions we gave to proven mediocre players. However, that was the only time post Fergie when things got at least a bit better for a period of time, so fairplay to Ole.
Then signing CR7. Don't want to blame him for everything but this stands out as a clear turning point where we went from a team below its standards to an actually bloody horrible team. Don't know what it was though but it was evident.
Wanting to turn fundamental things upside down without really having a plan. It started with the Rangnick interlude and continued with the hiring of ten Hag ("from now on, we have a concept" blah blah). Ultimately, it led us to the most cruel transfer decisions in the club's history and to a squad that consists only of mediocrity and pins its hopes on players with no experience who are simply overwhelmed.
How it went on: Signing better players but in panic mode and more and more saying goodbye to any kind of concept on how to play football. At the same time, destroying any realistic salary structure (Mou era)
The Solskjaer days: Small, fleeting waves of euphoria determine important future decisions. This applies to Ole's hiring itself as well as to the numerous contract extensions we gave to proven mediocre players. However, that was the only time post Fergie when things got at least a bit better for a period of time, so fairplay to Ole.
Then signing CR7. Don't want to blame him for everything but this stands out as a clear turning point where we went from a team below its standards to an actually bloody horrible team. Don't know what it was though but it was evident.
Wanting to turn fundamental things upside down without really having a plan. It started with the Rangnick interlude and continued with the hiring of ten Hag ("from now on, we have a concept" blah blah). Ultimately, it led us to the most cruel transfer decisions in the club's history and to a squad that consists only of mediocrity and pins its hopes on players with no experience who are simply overwhelmed.
The thing about mistakes is that they almost always only become apparent a little way down the line - otherwise most of them wouldn't be made in the first place. Blimey, most of us would have thought that £85 million on Anthony seemed fair enough after his first 3 games! The difference with Harry Kane was that it was entirely predictable that he would perform as he has done for Bayern - is anybody particularly surprised at how well he has done there? Do Bayern regret spending so much on him? There isn't inherently an issue with spending a huge amount of money on a player when they are the right player - the problem is spending a huge amount of money on the wrong player. It is not an exact science but in terms of risk you don't get much lower than Harry Kane. Having no guaranteed goals up front is soul destroying for the rest of the team - the same way that it is to have goalkeeper that gives stupid goals away every other game. That in itself is predictable - after all we'd just been through the Wout Weghorst era - and so it's not particularly as speculative as you make out. Centre forward for the biggest club in the world, during a difficult spell, is not a position to take punts on expensive young players with only a single season in the Italian league to judge them on.
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Weirdly the Rangnick appointment was the one time that they did actually seem to be making a decision based on having a wider plan - bring him in as caretaker for a few months so he can get an understanding of the issues, and then move him to a Technical Director kind of role to help implement his findings. The problem is the powers that be seemed to lose sight of that, and Ten Hag (to my mind) seemingly made it clear that he wouldn't take the manager's job with Rangnick above him - that is speculation on my part, but Ten Hag made it very clear that he had chosen to not even speak to Rangnick when he came in. At the time it seemed odd that he was so definitive about not speaking with him - what would the harm be in having a conversation?
I'm not saying that it was a mistake to bin off Rangnick when Ten Hag came onboard (it's genuinely impossible to predict whether we'd have been better or not), but it is symptomatic of the muddled thinking that has been a feature of the club since David Gill stepped down.
I somehow missed this, we paid 170m for Onana? How?
I'm not even sure who has the argument for his "best" signing. Casemiro cost too much and dropped off a good amount after his great first year. Martinez cost a bomb as well and has had two major injuries now (not to mention was a classic limited signing).
I agree, the nature of mistakes often makes them only be apparent after they have been made, thats why it is so important to keep track of things, monitor the past to see trends, patterns and so on. Based on that I come to my conclusion and you apparently come to yours. The way you laid it out makes it clear - we have very different approaches: your point is that big outlays are fine when it is for the right players, my point is that big outlays are a problem in and of himself. Especially so for United in the last few years where both track record, dwindling resources and loss of status played so crucial roles. I also don't subscribe that Striker and Keeper are somehow more crucial positions.
On all those things, I can kind of see where you are coming from though and no doubt, multiple mistakes have been made for a long time. I think, the only real dispute is whether Kane is on a short list of prevented mistakes or not.
That said - did I understand you right, at one point you thought the outlay for Antony seemed fair enough? That must be a misunderstanding, right?
I don't regret not signing Kane in the slightest. He would obviously have improved us in the short term, but spending €95m on 30 year olds for short term improvement is the sort of obviously stupid thing you don't do when you're in our position. It would have just been another attempt at a Casemiro-style shortcut.
Spending £72m on Hojlund instead however was very much a mistake. In that same transfer window other attackers like Cunha, Joao Pedro, Jackson, Ekitike, Sesko and Gyokeres moved for fractions of that price, all of whom we'd likely now prefer to own. Those are the sort of signings you need to make to rebuild sustainably.
Targeting younger players is the correct move, but they always need to be the right younger players at the right price.
Appointing Moyes is the single worse decision over the last 12 years. Closely (and I mean very very closely) followed by appointing Woodward as CEO. These 2 decisions are why we are in the position we find ourselves in now.
Centre forward at United is a huge position to fill for a young player, unproven in the Premier League. In most cases I would agree with what you're saying about spending £100 million on a 30 year old, but when it is a a 30 year old that has looked after himself, is completely proven, wouldn't need time to settle, and would pretty much guarantee you 25 goals per season for the next 4-5 years it is a different case. In my eyes it is a very different situation to Casemiro who had never played in this country, and arguably was already on a downward trajectory. Bayern are pretty shrewd when it comes to spending money, and they thought it worth the risk - even with the added risk for them that he may not settle in a different country. Also when you talk about being 'in our position', well we weren't in the shit that we are now in at the time - since that summer we have spent 100s of millions. As I said in my initial post on the topic there's no doubt in my mind that Fergie would have broken the bank to sign Harry Kane, 30 years old or not.
Absolutely fine to agree to disagree, but I would take issue with striker and goalkeeper thing. You can play well as a team and lose a game if your keeper throws one into his own net. Similarly you can play well as a team and not win the game if you have a striker that cannot make something out of a half chance. We have seen evidence for both of those scenarios this season. If you play well as a team you are less likely to lose if your right back isn't up to scratch, or your left winger.I agree, the nature of mistakes often makes them only be apparent after they have been made, thats why it is so important to keep track of things, monitor the past to see trends, patterns and so on. Based on that I come to my conclusion and you apparently come to yours. The way you laid it out makes it clear - we have very different approaches: your point is that big outlays are fine when it is for the right players, my point is that big outlays are a problem in and of himself. Especially so for United in the last few years where both track record, dwindling resources and loss of status played so crucial roles. I also don't subscribe that Striker and Keeper are somehow more crucial positions.
On all those things, I can kind of see where you are coming from though and no doubt, multiple mistakes have been made for a long time. I think, the only real dispute is whether Kane is on a short list of prevented mistakes or not.
That said - did I understand you right, at one point you thought the outlay for Antony seemed fair enough? That must be a misunderstanding, right?
To be fair I did say after three games
. If he'd kept up that scoring rate £85 million would have been a bargain!Thats an interesting take, have never seen it like that. I mean, you are right of course, in a lowscoring sport like football, moments matter and CF and GK are either closest to the goalline and therefor the more likely'st to be part of such moments. I think though, that the last years and the focus and possession and midfield are an indicator that this is the area, that is the most relevant when controlling chances - own ones and opposition ones as well. I mean, you can have a fantastic keeper at hand who makes 2 wondersafes in a game and a great striker who makes 2 goals from two halfchances but when the opposition team is making sure that you can't get your hand on the ball, restricting you of generating chances while at the same time generating 4 good chances and 4 halfchances on their own, then you might still lose games. But I'll give you one thing - your way of describing it seems to be in line with how SAF created his teams and I am certainly not going to call that faulty.
Honestly, I'd be genuinely interested though how he'd fair these days with the technical level not only on the player side but also on the tactical side so ramped up.
I don't even remember the start to be perfectly honest. Did he score so many? I was very much against that transfer back then, with the amount that was paid, I have to admit there was next to no fair chance for him to come good. Not fair towards the player who didn't pay the price, no doubt, but we are what we are. Honestly, this particular transfer was just the biggest or worst iteration of bad decisions but this transfer would probably be right up there in the top 3 of the worst decision the club has made. Especially given that 99,5% of the football world couldn't believe what happened thereTo be fair I did say after three games
Signing Antony and Mount at those prices. They were inexplicable decisions at the time, and have aged exactly the way they seemed like they were going to.