Prior to the 2020s Messi reached a WC final and 3 Copa finals with Argentina so it's not down to bad coaching per se if you are always the runner-ups since getting to the final isn't easy, Argentina simply lacked the ability to be decisive in the final. The 2014 final is a great example of Argentina being unclutch, Higuain, Di Maria, Messi, Palacios(?) missed several great chances and the final went to extra time, culminating with Götze scoring. There was definitely a mental element because pressure from Argentina fans increased the longer he didn't win anything, they even started doubting his loyalties which led Messi to briefly quit the NT. Fortunately his body held up in his 30s and a new generation unaffected by previous disappointments emerged e.g. MacAllister, Enzo, Dibu, Lautaro, Julian Alvarez.
Lamine Yamal
- Thread starter Hoof the ball
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) are here to discuss three 1-1 draws.
The first got us knocked out of the FA Cup, the next puts us in a good position in our Round of 16 Europa League game, and the latest was an actual decent performance against Arsenal at Old Trafford.
All hopes for the season now rest on the Europa League - does Amorim have the squad to win it?
You are actually saying what I've said, timing in life it's everything, if some of those chances were scored, things could change.
Just as a side note, to be more precise: Pekerman and Basile are great coaches, that fvcked decisive moments and in the case of Pekerman, had a a very unlucky injury with Abbondancieri, even if his changes were pretty bad in my view and he repeteaed past mistakes made in prior friendlies.
Yet Sampaoli, Batista, Bauza, Maradona, too much improvisation that ended badly. Martino just a mere good coach with a serious flaw all his carreer of how to face a final.
Back to that Argentina 2014 it's actually one of the best coched NTs in recent times. The WC version wasn't the same as the one in the eliminatories that was flying at all cilinders with everyone fit (months a year after the WC, they were most of them back in their best fitness and also were playing quite great, shyte happens. but in the WC Messi was struggling on the verge of a major injury, so he was treated in consequence, Kun got broke, Di Maria too and Sabella who was a fine coach, transformed the team in way more pragmatic team to try to win it anyway, he was close, but no cigar.
PD: Yes indeed there was a mental element with huge roots even before messi arrived. That kind of stuff can only get out of the way with a Title, even if won without your best form, that it's a classic with every NT in the history of the game, if not the prior failures appear as ghosts in the new opportunities
Re:4 I’m not sure how one interprets the ceiling, it’s easy to use foresight and say that about Messi because we know what he became, I would argue that given what Yamal has done before he turns 18, that means his ceiling is actually even higher.
Yamal has average speed. Messi had top acceleration. This is the big difference.
Messi had off the charts acceleration, deceleration, agility, lateral quickness and balance, to go with elite pace
Lamine Yamal has elite agility, lateral quickness and balance, and his pace, acceleration and deceleration are great, but yeah, he's no Messi athletically
Messi had insane athleticism
Lamine Yamal has elite agility, lateral quickness and balance, and his pace, acceleration and deceleration are great, but yeah, he's no Messi athletically
Messi had insane athleticism
Messi had elite acceleration but I don't think he had elite top max speed.
He didn't though he was still pretty damn fast in terms of top speed and pace over 40-50 meters
The rest was ridiculous. His dribbling was so fast defenders often didn't even have the time to react
He has amazing ability to change direct and stop, he was like playing a computer game with arcade controls.
That fecking desire to get that ball and just nonchalantly does that straight after. Feck me it was sublime. 
Not really. Messi had loads of room for improvement in decision making and final pass. His baseline qualities i.e speed, explosiveness, close control and even finishing was on another level to Yamal. The first 3 are innate qualities. What can Yamal improve on? Mainly his finishing. His passing can improve but the room is much less than it was for Messi while his decision making is as good as can be not just for a 17 year old. His speed, explosiveness and close control will never reach Messi's level.
People are comparing them based on age, a fairer comparIson is based on the first 100 games because as has been said severally what made Messi not start regularly for Barcelona at 16 or 17 was the prevailing circumstances, not lack of ability. If you look at the stats at 100 games, Messi beats Yamal in goalscoring and absolutely demolishes him in dribbles completed. Yamal has more assists.
In short, Messi's raw talent was greater than Yamal's and therefore a higher ceiling. Reminds me of the Rooney vs Cristiano comparison, both talented but once Cristiano's decision making improved, he pulled away.
Correct.
The first one hundred games is not a fairer comparison, what kind of logic is that?
Lots to disagree with here. That is not at all a fairer way to compare; on the developmental curve, the older you are (especially as a footballer) the better, stronger and smarter you are, and further, the more equipped you are to handle the adult game, given you’re becoming a full grown man yourself. A 16-year old working through a hundred games is nothing at all like a 19-year old doing the same thing. The 16-year old also has to navigate the pitch and opponents in a completely different way, unless an absolute man-child like a Whiteside or Rooney, who were bulldozing through full-grown men for fun at 16 and 17. Yamal’s decision making is also absolutely extraordinary and the best I’ve seen in a child, Pele and Maradona inclusive, so his interpretation of the pitch is so far removed from the generic teen prodigy as to be almost pointless to compare them.
And regarding Rooney and C.Ronaldo, you’ve gone off on a complete tangent assuming both had the same thirst for development, improvement and application. They didn’t. Not by a long shot, so raw talent (of which Rooney clearly had more of) has nothing to do with where they ended up or how things turned out; Rooney with C.Ronaldo’s dedication and studiousness would be a wholly different conversation.
On Yamal’s speed. There’s no real way of knowing what it might become. He doesn’t even have his adult muscles or body yet.
I agree with @Fortitude on Yamal's pace. His body will develop more as he becomes a full-fledged adult and he could become faster.
Athletes don't peak physically at 17. Messi was faster at 22 years of age than he was at 17. Comparing them on pace is disingenuous at the moment.
But Yamal is clearly the most talented player since Messi. His decision making and playmaking for his age is frightening. I've said he's the best player in the world this season, and I think more are reluctant to include him in the conversation because of his age, but he's phenomenal. His finishing is his biggest weakness, but he could easily remedy that with time.
In terms of comparing his innate talent directly to Messi's, it's still hard to look past Messi. I think Messi's probably the 2nd or 3rd most naturally gifted player of all-time, but I don't think Yamal is that far off. He's more talented than Neymar was imo and that's a high bar to me.
Athletes don't peak physically at 17. Messi was faster at 22 years of age than he was at 17. Comparing them on pace is disingenuous at the moment.
But Yamal is clearly the most talented player since Messi. His decision making and playmaking for his age is frightening. I've said he's the best player in the world this season, and I think more are reluctant to include him in the conversation because of his age, but he's phenomenal. His finishing is his biggest weakness, but he could easily remedy that with time.
In terms of comparing his innate talent directly to Messi's, it's still hard to look past Messi. I think Messi's probably the 2nd or 3rd most naturally gifted player of all-time, but I don't think Yamal is that far off. He's more talented than Neymar was imo and that's a high bar to me.
Messi with the ball is the fastest i have seen And the ball was as if tied to his laces. Without the ball though, he was very fast, certainly faster than Yamal, but not the fastest.
There is a quote from Mourinho about Rashford where he says that it doesn't matter his age, what does matter is how much he has played. This holds true for Yamal vs Messi comparison as well; Yamal is a veteran compared to Messi at the same age and therefore has way more experience. Therefore, a fairer comparison is after a fixed no of games rather than age.
The other thing is physical development; Yamal looks more physically developed compared to Messi; the later actually looked like a child at 18.
In any case, i have watched Yamal this season, last season and at the Euros as well. I watched Messi when he was 18 (at 17 he barely played) and i can say without doubt that his innate talent was easily greater than that of Yamal although the later is a generational talent in his own right. Whether he will have an preening egomaniac pushing him remains to be seen.
How do you describe natural talent? For me there are certain things you learn in the game like passing, running off the ball, decision making, free kicks and, finishing while there are others you cannot learn like speed, acceleration, and close control. It is these laters aspects of the game where i don't think anyone bar Maradona comes close to Messi. Messi at 18 was completing a monstrous number of dribbles (7.2 per 90 mins vs Yamal's 4.2 per 90 mins) purely because of his innate talent.
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It is logical in this case (Yamal vs Messi) because the former has had far more opportunity due to the prevailing circumstances and therefore interms of experience is way ahead. Experience counts especially when it comes to output.
Messi also had his 3 month long injuries that really hampered him in his teens. He completed 100 games at age 20 (07/08) and even in that season he got injured twice missing 3 months.
https://www.givemesport.com/lamine-...his 100th game, Messi,Liga titles to his name.