We deserved to win the cup final, beat Liverpool and yes, Coventry, too.
Watching our supporters shit on this achievement so they can encourage a change of manager, without knowing who this ought to be, is curious to say the least.
Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Watching our supporters shit on this achievement so they can encourage a change of manager, without knowing who this ought to be, is curious to say the least.
We deserved to win the final in my opinion, but we were extremely lucky to get there. Coventry should have won
Ye no one can say we had it easy. We beat Liverpool who was fighting on a lot of fronts this season, then beat city in the final. We can’t really win. Get called if we lose and we don’t deserve it when we win.
We didn’t deserve to beat Coventry.
But he did build something, he built the greatest runners up of the modern era.
Don't forget the myriad injuries we suffered this season. I appreciate other teams had them, too, but injuries are a reason, not an excuse.
You're not wrong regarding the tactical argument. However, to not factor in the role of injuries even into that is irresponsible.
Doesn't that belong to Klopp?
You don't give any random manager significant time. You only give it to a manager who is showing signs of being able to push us further and further each season. Doing otherwise is gross incompetence and is far more likely to do long-term damage as an incompetent manager implements poor training and coaching, doesn't develop young players correctly, costs us huge sums of money through poor results and not making European spots (which also hurts our prestige and makes it less likely top players will want to join), and ultimately just guarantees failure.
So, that leaves us with a very simple question. Is ETH showing signs of being able to get significant improvement out of this team, and has the right playstyle that we want our players (especially the youngsters) to get used to and develop with? On the field this season, the answer to that was absolutely no. What us random fans don't know is whether he was doing good work behind the scenes in a way that indicates that it will ultimately start working. That has to be what the review that INEOS was running has to judge. If they sack him, obviously the answer was no. If they keep him, then presumably the answer was yes.
**shudder** that gave me flashbacks to a former life! So true.
Thankfully we won’t have to worry about that.
We edged the cup final, mostly thanks to huge leg up of the laughable opening goal. We didn't deserve anything against Coventry and we're a incredibly tight offside call away from being out, and we got lucky against Liverpool who should have buried us in the second half and in ET but didn't.
That's they way it goes in the cup sometimes though, luck plays a huge part and we got lucky the other teams didn't. It's why winning the domestic cups isn't some huge achievement for Us and doesn't guarantee the manager his position. The squad is comfortably one of the best 6 in the country, with a little luck with draws and some luck in games and a couple of penalty shootout wins we should be competing for the domestic cups as a minimum.
In terms of who should replace ETH if he is sacked. It should be Tuchel or Poch.
I forgot. He has officially been crowned the king of 2nd place finishes
Sure you need to factor in the role of injuries, but you also have to be honest about what those injuries were and what they realistically impacted. There is a concerted effort to make it appear as if the team performed as well as it could possibly do given the injuries, which is not accurate.
We crashed out of the CL with the worst performance ever by an English side. We ended up with a negative goal-difference, despite having our best attackers available for most of the season. Even the argument that "we had no defence" really does not make much sense, we conceded less per chance than any of our rivals - including City and Arsenal (!). We just conceded far more chances and allowed far more shots than anyone else.
Ten Hag has his positives, third place last season, two trophies in two seasons, Rashford having a record season, youth playing a vital role. However, there is no point pretending like the negatives are not there.
I can’t see why TH is compared to Arteta. Arteta was a complete novice. He had never managed anyone before Arsenal and rightly given more time. TH is an experienced manager who managed his second season in the Premier like a novice. There really is no comparison.
Let's stop pretending ETH is building anything then, in that case. As there was a much clearer rebuild at Arsenal. Ten Hag has flip flopped on tactics over the 2 years, no consistency or clear progress in any particular way, just resorting back to the football he came to replace in the end. And now the club has asked him to change it all anyway as they want something different.
Whoever is manager next season is starting back at square one except Ten Hag would be on a much shorter leash due to the above.
Even though I do think ETH should be sacked, I don't really agree with this.
We're at least a couple of years away from challenging for the title. There's simply too much work that needs to be done, both in terms of squad-building and in developing the players we do have. As such, the manager who is the best option for the next season or two isn't necessarily the one who can finish the job and take us back to the very top. Whether it's ETH, Tuchel, Poch, De Zerbi, Amorin, Frank, or whoever, we need to have the best option for now rather than putting too much importance on getting the perfect manager. Otherwise that statement can easily be reversed to say "why bother sacking ETH if we don't think any of the current options are good enough to win the league against Pep's City?".
Of course ideally the manager we have next season is the one who does ultimately win the league, but with the position we're in I don't think it's necessarily the key feature that we need to be focusing on.
Coventry were dog shit and comfortably beaten for the first 60 minutes. They deserve credit for their fight back but they had a dubious penalty and a lucky deflection to help get them there.
Their “winner” shouldn’t even be discussed as it was offside by the letter of the law, and the same rules United have also been on the wrong side of plenty of times.
It was horrendous to see us throw away the lead like that but we only deserved to be beaten in a punitive sense, not if you objectively go off what happened in the game.
"dOn'T fOrGeT tHe InJuRiEs!"
As if a) other teams also didn't have them and b) ten Hag didn't have the chance to be pragmatic and sensible and play a team according to the strengths of the players we had available at any given time.
It's actually a stick to beat him with because he refused to adapt so it shows an inability to deal with things and a stubborn streak.
And that's before you factor in our suicidal tactics of pushing 6 up front trying to press whilst having a stupidly deep defence creating the entirely free middle part of the pitch where teams waltzed through us and got shots off every five seconds all season. This is something he actually wanted and pursued and every man and his dog could tell it was never going to work.
It was the Palace away game that properly did me in - everyone, everyone except ten Hag knew that with the way we played and the players he picked we were going to get caned and we did. How on earth did we as fans ever fall so far to accept it's just a part of our season and we'll give him a chance to turn it around? Imagine in the Fergie days thinking 'oh well, we're gonna lose this one 4-0' and not thinking anything of it.
As if a) other teams also didn't have them and b) ten Hag didn't have the chance to be pragmatic and sensible and play a team according to the strengths of the players we had available at any given time.
It's actually a stick to beat him with because he refused to adapt so it shows an inability to deal with things and a stubborn streak.
And that's before you factor in our suicidal tactics of pushing 6 up front trying to press whilst having a stupidly deep defence creating the entirely free middle part of the pitch where teams waltzed through us and got shots off every five seconds all season. This is something he actually wanted and pursued and every man and his dog could tell it was never going to work.
It was the Palace away game that properly did me in - everyone, everyone except ten Hag knew that with the way we played and the players he picked we were going to get caned and we did. How on earth did we as fans ever fall so far to accept it's just a part of our season and we'll give him a chance to turn it around? Imagine in the Fergie days thinking 'oh well, we're gonna lose this one 4-0' and not thinking anything of it.
A novice who has flown past ETH already in the last 2 years. This is why it's daft to say there's no suitable replacement or there, as everyone wrote Arteta off. And at the same time believed Ten Hag was a mix of Klopp and Pep. Fans just see and believe what they want when it comes to football.
He said the base of the team (in his own words) is strong, with some young players ready to step up. Of course certain signings haven't been able to make an impact or were outright mistakes in Mount, Antony and he needs that amended. He will also need defensive coverage and a midfielder. But he's eluded to a good spine in Licha, Shaw, Mainoo, Bruno, Hojlund Garnacho to work around.
He also needs to right the wrongs in the medical department. Well not him but the club, because it's a well recorded shit show. And hel need to use this pre season to find a game plan that isn't so suicidal, which he's capable of doing.
You struggle to read posts. That much is clear.And the excuses keep on piling....nothing bad can stick to Mr.Teflon in this universe. This thread is genuinely hilarious.
Now, stubbornly persisting for too long with something that clearly doesn't work are sufficient grounds for dismissal. It leads to poor results and low league ranking which leads to loss of earnings when the club fails to qualify for more lucrative competitions,something that also affects earnings from sponsors. Also,it traumatizes and demoralizes players,even good youngsters like Mainoo who are made to look like mugs when poor teams run rings around them. Finally it brings ridicule and makes the club a laughing stock,and this was not what the club had in mind when it was hiring him.
I said his extended stubbornness will likely get him sacked. My personal opinion is to give him time to fix it, knowing his form has been sackable. That is because he's more adaptable than you're claiming, and he has form for doing better than what we've seen.
If the market was buzzing with candidates that are sure things I wouldn't blink. But there are big risks with every candidate.
We really did.
Ought to have been several more goals ahead before they fluked their first (or second). Overall, we were the better team on the day, as we were in the final and against Liverpool. Also, before you begin, the VAR call was tight, but it was accurate.
It's worrying how many posters on here are so blinded by 'EtH Out' narratives (wanting to win the argument), they rewrite recent history with such brazen nonsense. Desperate for us to lose key matches so they could announce they told us so.
Considering United won a major honour during a monumental injury crisis (beating the country's Champion in the process), qualifying for Europe on the back of a successful previous campaign, it's tenable whether EtH truly has taken United backward, or has actually done well in the face of adversity.
To sack him for a replacement with which there is no guarantee of improvement is a serious risk, and Ineos are right to prevaricate.
Any replacement past Tuchel (my tip if EtH is clipped) will need 'time' to implement Ineos' preferred structure, which could lead to a spate of fifth to eighth place finishes with no accompanying honours.
Yes, let's ignore the facts.
Exactly and I am surprised people who support TH can’t see that
Similar to a season based on which we have deemed him good enough to continue should also be acceptable next season. If he regresses and we are lower / on track for less than 60 points, I agree he should be re-assessed earlier than the end of season. I also imagine there will be some squad turnover, plus there may be some injuries which will affect our performances.
I would still feel more safe assessing him if he got the players he wanted. Ideally you'd want him to get De Jong but not sure how feasible that is going to be with his Barca affection and contract situation. He clearly has a vision of what the team should look like, and we've already invested so much in it that backtracking at this point would almost feel wrong.
Having that centre back pairing and persisting with the donut formation was pure insanity. Nobody expected him to win the league with those injuries, but to continue playing the way we did was just neglegent.
Regardless of what people think about the manager.
One key issue that we can all agree on that needs to be fixed is recruitment. I know that SJR has stated the role will now be head coach and the people above will make decisions. I want to see that implemented this summer.
We have had too many poor transfer windows, I cant think of many players that we have signed and think wow that was a brilliant signing.
We sign players specifically for managers who then get sacked and those players are just in and around the squad. This goes back to Moyes. Fellaini to Antony. Every season, ever manager gets players that in 2/3 years are surplus to requirements but we cant get them sold.
That is why I would keep the manager and clear out players the hierarchy dont think will suit the football club going forward.
The likes of Maguire, Lindelof, AWB, McTominay, Antony, Sancho, Donny.
Whilst I appreciate we cant get rid of them all, we can get rid of 4. Maybe we have to keep Maguire as 4th choice.
Its clear A) English is not his strong point as can be highlighted by the many times he contradicts himself or uses general terms like illness B) as said above, watch his Ajax teams and you will see elements from both the 2019 team (in terms of playing out from the back and the lone midfielder) and from his more recent team (the attacking structure). You can base this on one sentence he said in english in a press conference or how the Ajax and United teams play/set up.
They scored 4 times in the second half, one ruled out because his breath was offside. We got extremely lucky. I daresay ETH would have been sacked the next morning
Most of them are out of contract next season anyway. The squad will undergo massive changes, no matter who is manager. Do you still feel like this is the right approach if, as has been reported, Ten Hag wants a major say on transfers?
Coventry were extremely unlucky. I walked away from that game with nothing but a crushing sense of shame.
It must be all games, and then done part way through this season. If we take his full two seasons ETH has played 114 matches for 1.92 ppg. Yes it's still better than Klopp (who I did check and his stats are accurate for his first two seasons) and Arteta (who I didn't check but I presume is the same), but both of them came in midway through the season rather than from the start which is obviously a more difficult position.
Also cup games can distort ppg, as obviously a manager who is lucky enough to draw a lot of easy teams will have their ppg increase, whereas a manager who is unlucky enough to have tough draws will have the opposite. I didn't check the actual league stats but I expect it's likely closer.
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I’m not blinded by ETH out as you put it. I’m on record as saying id be open to him getting benefit of the doubt but no excuses next season. Clear signs of progress or gone.
re Coventry we were extremely lucky. We deserved to win based on first half but once they got our number in the second half they scored 4 times and missed several good chances. They deserved to win in my opinion.
If he wants to be stubborn and wants major say then he cant stay on as manager, they just have to show him his signings and how they have all failed.
Lisandro is probably best of the bunch but has been injured majority of the season. He surely cannot have any excuses.
He also has worked with the system at Ajax where the board were in charge of signings.
As we all should have but some think that Coventry were lucky
We can say that but they also got a penalty which was lucky, the same handball 1 day prior in the semi final 1 was not given.
It’s total games
On the flip side, seems like many managers are on the move this summer. So this might be a good moment to replace ETH.
I also like this sentence:
From being a manager outplayed by the likes of Burnley or Coventry, he became a manager that dominates City. This is what one good game with a big chunk of luck gets you these days.
We were a disgrace against Coventry from the point they scored their first. Bloody awful.
Equally we should have been 4 or 5 up before that at least and their second and third goals had all the elements of good fortune.
Fact is you should never be blowing a lead like that to opposition like that.
No, don't ignore the facts - we had injuries and we failed to find adequate solutions to cope.
Other teams also had injuries and coped vastly better than we did.
You can allow some leeway for the type of injuries - i.e. having your entire CB roster out injured at any given time but there's a chance to be pragmatic or trust youth or something, anything else to try and effect a change and ETH did the square root of feck all for the entire season.
And like I said, that's before the suicidal approach he decided he wanted to go with this year with his best first XI that also absolutely didn't/doesn't work.
They also got a penalty which wasn’t a penalty.