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Thoughts on Tuchel as a potential United manager?
- Thread starter sullydnl
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I‘m not sure, ok he won the CL at Chelsea but Christ he fell off a cliff after that and Chelsea gave him the boot.
Not for me, I think he would be another Jose and fall out with the board after a season or two.
Graham Potter fits the profile of manager you suggested perfectly. He is a young, modern manager with modern tactics that succeeded at a lower club. He then had a terrible time once he moved to a big club in Chelsea. Any of the other young managers you suggested could similarly struggle with the step up (Alonso is probably an exception, but he'll also have much better options to manage than us).
Actually wasn’t Klopp in great form by the time he left, Dortmund’s second half of the season was night and day right? After the xmas break Klopp recorded 1.82 points per game.
Tuchel went from 2nd on 78 points in Tuchel’s first season, to 3rd on 64 points. So they got worse under him obviously. I want a single example of a side that got better with him season on season.
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Hmmm…. Was he really Bayern manager last season for this test of do his teams improve the longer he stays?
No Dortmund imploded in Klopps last season.
Well there you have much of the context behind the fallout with the BVB board, they sold most of the spine. It was an impossible task to grow after that. I'd argue still getting a cup after the squad getting gutted was impressive.
Yes, until the winter break, when Klopp announced he would be leaving. They then climbed a lot in the second half of that season and finished 7th. But still Tuchel's 78 points were a massive improvement, even compared to the second half of Klopp's final season (31 points after 15 points in the first half).
Which still isn’t my point. I want a team that improved under him
He can clearly come in to a club and have a good short term effect after taking over from a sacked or failing manager, but the longer he stays, they always get worse do they not?
PSG. Won two titles in his first season, the league with 91 points in 38 games (2.39 ppg). Won the domestic quadruple in his second season, the league with 68 points in 27 games (2.52 ppg). Obviously the league was stopped because of Covid.
That was also when Dortmund sold off Hummels, Gundogan, and Mkhitaryan, stepped up from the Europa League to the Champions League, and still finished 3rd and won the DFB-Pokal.
This seems like quite an unreasonable expectation for any manager the more I think about it.
The average lifespan of a manager is roughly 2 years, if that. The vast majority of managerial tenures end via dismissal. So it's naturally implied that the overwhelming majority of managers cannot possibly improve upon their employer's fortunes year on year.
And this seems about right when you look at even the best coaches around. Klopp's Liverpool peaked in 2020, and have since regressed season on season until this one, which has been better than his last. His Dortmund side most certainly did not improve year on year. In fact it must be a wonder why Liverpool went near him with a barge pole after his last, disastrous campaign.
Until last season, City under Guardiola peaked in his second term, before hitting what seemingly must be considered an unforgivable low in year 4, where he failed to win a league in which his team had enormous financial and structural advantages.
Progression in football is hardly ever linear, not even for them. So if the only coach you want to consider is one who will have us improve season on season, then you are 100% correct in asserting that Tuchel is not that guy. But then it doesn't really seem like anybody is, does it?
I think you've previously pointed to Xabi Alonso, who is an example, sure. But only if he goes unbeaten again all year next time, and even then you only have sample size of three seasons across one club. There's also the minor fact that he's never coming here anyway, but even then he barely meets your criteria, and almost certainly won't in a year's time.
So I don't think it's unreasonable for @Fallon d'Floor to ask who it is you want to bring in, since it's hard to think of someone who checks the boxes you want them to.
That's certainly one interpretation of the events.
It ignores, well, a lot. But sure.
It’s only unreasonable when you make the assumption I’m expecting it to be linear.
Klopp’s Dortmund and Liverpool career took a steady line of progression until they peaked, then they had some troughs and peaks, this is what I expect from a great manager. Tuchel‘s career instead tells a story of a man who comes in, has a quick effect, peaks very early, starts regressing, falls out with people, gets sacked early.
Does it not?
I’ll say it again because I don’t think it can be said enough, it is 100% the appointment Rd Woodward would be desperately trying to make right now.
Oh without a doubt.
Woodward tried to hire Klopp, so...
Woodward had no idea how to build over time and smoothly transition from manager to manager, but even he understood who is a good manager. That was never the issue.
That's what I'm saying, too. I wish Ed's dumb adult Disney pitch had worked.
The repeatedly used phrase "year on year" or "season on season" did certainly lead me to that assumption yes. Mostly because that's what that means.
Stop being disingenuous man, Klopp built Liverpool to what they are/became, season on season. Same for Pep, Poch at Spurs, Sir Alex, Arteta. Building up a project season on season isn’t some special property that no manager in today’s game can possibly achieve.
Kin ell man, what has Tuchel built season on season? He builds a quick fecking sand castle and then gets himself the sack.
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Klopp left Dortmund in tatters. Tuchel build them back up.
Tatters
Klopp left having a second half of the season which he picked up 1.8 pts per game, after a freak first half.
Tuchel left after a season picking up 1.8 pts per game.
Trees will fall, rivers will dry up, and mountains turn to dust. Still, @Regulus Arcturus Black will not answer the question of what manager they want at United. All the managers you listed aren't coming here, as you must surely know.
So I suppose we can only guess what the answer might be. Given that Pochettino at Spurs is listed as a good example from times gone by, I suppose we can look at where they got him from and extrapolate from there. He had one good season at Southampton, taking them to their record high 8th placed finish in the PL. Prior to that, he'd been doing okay in Spain. So I guess the modern parallel might be Iraola?
Honestly, I'm just guessing here because until you actually answer what seems to be a perfectly reasonable question, that's all anyone can do really.
Every managerial contract goes well until it doesn't. That's just what happens. Is your actual point that you want a long term manager in now, and it's the fact that Tuchel is a short term option that irks you? That would make more sense than literally crossing out a list of trophies won and making up strange, vague conditions that don't really stand up to any scrutiny.
I'm scrambling around to find a reason beyond "yuck, Tuchel!" simply because I'm not getting any straight and fair answers from reading your posts. I think there's a point in there somewhere beyond "yuck, Tuchel!" but I can't for the life of me find it. Help me out here.
They where a mess. If you had actually watched the Buli back then and not just rely on a pointstat on a paper you would know this.Tatters
Klopp left having a second half of the season which he picked up 1.8 pts per game, after a freak first half.
Tuchel left after a season picking up 1.8 pts per game.
Who would you prefer for next season?
The person-biased favoritism on here towards managers and certain players are staggering. Why aren’t more people pro United? I do not care of who manages this club or who plays for it as long as the well-being is being prioritized. I can already see the Tuchel army building. Yawn.
Has to be better than the current manager. Ten Haag is stinking the place out. Tuchel might only come for 18 months, as it seems that is his shelf life at a club, but it'll be an adventure.
What a daft comment. I'll help you understand: the reason people are either for or against any given name is precisely because they care about United.
@Regulus Arcturus Black and I disagree on Tuchel but it both stems from us wanting United to get better.
Mental gymnastics. Klopp finished 7th. Tuchel finished 3rd.Tatters
Klopp left having a second half of the season which he picked up 1.8 pts per game, after a freak first half.
Tuchel left after a season picking up 1.8 pts per game.
But to add more context to your last point. “he became the most successful coach in Dortmund history with an average of 2.09 points per Bundesliga game, a record he holds to this day”
Completely uninformed opinion yet again
based purely on what someone has dreamt overnight.
In his first full season (2021/22), he got Chelsea into two cup finals (both lost on pens against the scousers) and finished 3rd in the league, one position and on 7 more points compared to his first (partial) season.
Then Chelsea had to be sold due to the Ukraine war and Boehly ruined the club. And they finished 12th, with disproportionate amount of their points coming from the few games Tuchel was in charge for, hardly making a great case for them 'falling off a cliff'.
A season in which someone tried to kill the team and in which they still won a trophy.Tatters
Klopp left having a second half of the season which he picked up 1.8 pts per game, after a freak first half.
Tuchel left after a season picking up 1.8 pts per game.
Besides you so far ignored my post about PSG where his second season was much better than the first, why is that?
If McKenna is charismatic, then Ten Hag and Potter seems to meet all your previously mentioned criterion.
Honestly mate, I’m here talking about my thoughts on this manager in general. I’m not here for our next manager debate.
I cannot give you a manager that I think we should take because I was happy with Mourinho, happy with LVG, and happy with ETH. I’ve clearly been completely wrong, multiple times!
Simply because all of our managerial appointments have swung massively in style and recruitment and it’s been a ridiculous and expensive strategy and failure.
What I can tell you is that I’m absolutely certain that if the glaziers were still running the show this manager would be right at the top of their list.
Is he out of the job/free agent - Yes
Does he have a CV for job - Yes
Is he an obvious candidate - yes
Is he high profile - yes
I’m hoping this time that Ashworth and the other directors make a really informed decision with the next manager rather than an obvious one, I hope they have a few candidates in mind and that all of those line up with where they want the club to go in terms of football style and recruitment strategy.
But seriously, if they think Tuchel is the man to work with them, fair play, I’ll be right behind him.
I think though that it will most likely end the way the rest of his jobs have, with a good start, then going backwards then fallings out and getting fired. And all will happen quickly as per his standard.
Wasn’t that season cancelled by Covid so like 11 games short?
And the following season (17 games, was where it all started going to shit?)
I’m not too impressed what anyone does at PSG in fairness so it’d take something absolutely extraordinary, let’s not forget he took over a side that just finished with 93 point and a domestic quadruple with Emery the season prior to his arrival.
I think he did ok at Dortmund, ok-ish at PsG, ok at Chelsea and he’s been a failure at Bayern. And all of them have been super short term that ended with the team on a downward trajectory.
He’s better than ETH by a country mile still mind.
Okay, I think I understand you now and to be honest, the bolded is a pretty good point. It absolutely is the appointment we'd make under the previous regime. That doesn't necessarily mean it's the wrong one to make, but it does mean it's one to think twice about. We are supposed to be doing things differently now, after all.
The setup he had at pre-Boehly Chelsea seemed to suit him very well, and it's not a setup we've tried under the Glazers. I could definitely see Tuchel working well under Ashworth and Wilcox as a pure head coach, but I doubt anyone considers him a particularly exciting appointment - I know I don't. It would be remiss of us not to seriously consider him in the event, however.
I really loved Tuchel at Chelsea. It was magic. I don't think he has resolved his personal stuff yet. If you want to know what his exit from Chelsea was really about, just google Thomas Tuchel wife's email. Nothing completely was made public, but you can put it together.
You seem to be set in your dislike for him and I don't think I'll change your viewpoint but my thoughts are
1. The club will have a lot more background info on what happened with these clubs than we ever will. They'll talk to their sources, talk to Tuchel and make a decision that's going to be a lot more informed than us speculating on the Caf about him falling out with the board in two years.
2. Pep himself fell out with the board at Barca and then left Bayern again after being burned out and gotten smashed by RM. Would you avoid him?
3. You'd need to look into each of his clubs independently and investigate why he fell out.
Mainz: No sources seem to have inside info here. He spent 5 years, decided he couldn't take them further and chose to quit himself after seeing out his contract.
Dortmund: Drama lies here. Tension was already brewing after the club sold a bunch of key players (Gundo, Mkhi etc.). Didn't like the fact that he wasn't even consulted for signing some others. He fell out with the players after the whole Dortmund bus attack incident. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...How-Thomas-Tuchel-fell-Borussia-Dortmund.html
PSG: Things were going fine for him in the league but he complained about political drama (keeping Mbappe and Neymar happy). My understanding here is that he didn't actually fall out - his contract was up and the powers that be didn't like the football that he was playing with them and that he didn't win the CL so sacked him. https://archive.is/YjpOj and https://www.footballtransfers.com/u...gue/2021/09/why-did-psg-sack-thomas-tuchel-us
Chelsea: Things went great under Abramovich. Boehly brought a wrecking ball to the finely tuned machine that was the Chelsea backroom strategy. I find it impossible to blame him for the sack. Most Chelsea fans were sad that he left and will probably take him back with open arms.
Bayern: I'll let you decide since it's the current season. They're already in boardroom political turmoil and sacked one competent coach (Nagelsmann) for seemingly no reason. I won't blame Tuchel for falling out here either.
Boehly has done a lot of harm, but Tuchel brought this on himself. Our team was absolutely unprepared for the preseason following our CL win. I was at the game against Arsenal, it was shocking. Tuchel's attentions were no longer on his team or the players.
I like Tuchel, but it kind of feels like the obvious appointment of the best available coach who can tick boxes like experience at big clubs, PL history, winning stuff, etc. So, more of the Mourinho and LVG type.
There's nothing wrong with that, but a more important issue now is how much he - or any other candidate - is or can be in line with the vision of the new hierarchy. The RIGHT manager would be better than just the best available one.
There's nothing wrong with that, but a more important issue now is how much he - or any other candidate - is or can be in line with the vision of the new hierarchy. The RIGHT manager would be better than just the best available one.
Wrong. The reason for biased towards certain people are person favoritism hence the massive defending of managers and players.
Where is the bias?? People are, for the most part, calmly arguing pros vs cons of different potential managers.
The only person on here that fits your description got banned.