We have only one centre back who understands the basic principle of taking man or ball when breaking rank?

[Fortitude]

I can't be the only one who is unhealthily wound up by the ineptitude of a centre back who takes it upon himself to break the defensive line, press an attacker, and then either allow man or ball to be casually played around him into the acre of space he's just vacated?

Aren't you taught, at some stage, to take out the man and accept your card for messing up?

Martinez does everything in his power to follow the principle: Maguire and Lindelof constantly fall foul of not following this most basic of "rules". Varane rarely finds himself in the predicament of having to make the choice, but I'd like to think he too has the cynicism to understand immediately that you do not let play go around and/or through you.

How many other top clubs have more than one CB that doesn't follow such a fundamental code of conduct?

 

[eire-red]

Lindelof was pathetic for the third goal. Should have just cleaned out the Villa man 5-10 yards outside the box. Martinez is one of the few in the squad with the required aggression, full stop.

And sometimes yes, taking man and/or ball is required. There are good yellows. We only give away cheap yellows. We're still quite a navie team.

 

[Waynne]

We don't need world beaters. Just players who do the basics right and put in 100% shift on the day. I'd take these kinds of players over the flair any day of the week.

Lindelof and Maguire needs shipping out. They are incapable of doing the basics.

 

[Judas]

Lindelof is a truly awful defender and gets off lightly because everyone wants to focus on Maguire.

 

[Slevs]

I can't be the only one who is unhealthily wound up by the ineptitude of a centre back who takes it upon himself to break the defensive line, press an attacker, and then either allow man or ball to be casually played around him into the acre of space he's just vacated?

Aren't you taught, at sone stage, to take out the man and accept your card for messing up?

Martinez does everything in hid power to follow the principle: Maguire and Lindelof constantly fall foul of not following this most basic of "rules". Varane rarely finds himself in the predicament of having to make the choice, but I'd like to think he too has the cynicism to understand immediately that you do not let play go around and/or through you.

How many other top clubs have more than one CB that doesn't follow such a fundamental code of conduct?

 

[Bobski]

Agree, Lindelof for the first goal has to either win the ball or take the foul, once he presses, breaks the shape he can't allow the guy to turn and play a progressive pass.

 

[MonkeysMagic]

I dont care what quality your team has in midfield or upfront but if you have defenders of the calibre of maguire/Lindeloff then you are not amounting to much. We made 5 decent purchases but still retain at least 6/7 players that need shifting, of that no one of a Utd persuasion should be in doubt.

 

[bosnian_red]

Varane too. Most teams don't have excellent 3rd and 4th choice centerbacks. It is what it is.

 

[V.O.]

Varane too. Most teams don't have excellent 3rd and 4th choice centerbacks. It is what it is.

I suppose we should probably be thankful Maguire and Lindelöf now are just that, but Christ, we'd be so good if Varane could stay fit.

I don't think Lindelöf is an awful back up, but his passiveness combined with Eriksen in front of him not doing much defensively is a pretty shit recipe. Could really have done with Fred in there today, as dodgy as he can be on the ball in those deep positions.

 

[Ralph1386]

Lindelof is a truly awful defender and gets off lightly because everyone wants to focus on Maguire.

They are both bad and we need one more reliable CB to cover for Martinez-Varane who need to be rotated.

 

[bosnian_red]

I suppose we should probably be thankful Maguire and Lindelöf now are just that, but Christ, we'd be so good if Varane could stay fit.

I don't think Lindelöf is an awful back up, but his passiveness combined with Eriksen in front of him not doing much defensively is a pretty shit recipe. Could really have done with Fred in there today, as dodgy as he can be on the ball in those deep positions.

Yeah Lindelof made a couple of mistakes and Villa punished them ruthlessly, but he's fine as a 3rd choice CB. We conceded 3 goals from 0.6 xG for example. Our defence wasn't the issue today. They were clinical and it was one of those days from a defensive POV, where even if we were on it from an attacking POV that we'd have struggled to overcome an early 2-0 deficit. But Our issue was clearly the attack, which is easily explained by not being able to play with Martial, Sancho, Antony, Bruno, and it being only a few months into Ten Hag's tenure... and that we just aren't a club yet that can handle those absences or even without them, be able to be undefeated for a whole season.

 

[RedDevil@84]

Lindelof is a truly awful defender and gets off lightly because everyone wants to focus on Maguire.

Everyone focuses on Maguire because he managed to become shittier than Lindelof.
Lindelof was clearly behind Maguire in the order for a while. Hence he escaped criticism. Maguire turned it around through his awesomeness and became backup to Lindelof.

 

[Ace of Spades]

I can't be the only one who is unhealthily wound up by the ineptitude of a centre back who takes it upon himself to break the defensive line, press an attacker, and then either allow man or ball to be casually played around him into the acre of space he's just vacated?

Aren't you taught, at some stage, to take out the man and accept your card for messing up?

Martinez does everything in his power to follow the principle: Maguire and Lindelof constantly fall foul of not following this most basic of "rules". Varane rarely finds himself in the predicament of having to make the choice, but I'd like to think he too has the cynicism to understand immediately that you do not let play go around and/or through you.

How many other top clubs have more than one CB that doesn't follow such a fundamental code of conduct?

Yep, even for the first goal he goes after the player and just keeps running beside him, not putting any pressure or much less tackling him. Frustrating to see.

 

[V.O.]

Lindelof is a truly awful defender and gets off lightly because everyone wants to focus on Maguire.

The worst thing he did today (abandoning his post, wandering into midfield and leaving the rest of the defence exposed) is something Maguire does in every single fecking match.

 

[Judas]

The worst thing he did today (abandoning his post, wandering into midfield and leaving the rest of the defence exposed) is something Maguire does in every single fecking match.

Aye. I’m not defending Maguire.

 

[noodlehair]

Lindelof is a truly awful defender and gets off lightly because everyone wants to focus on Maguire.

This.

Lindelof gets an easy ride because of how often Maguire puts on a circus show, but I honestly think he's a contender for worst centreback in the league. There's nothing defensively he's good at and he plays like the scared kid in a PE lesson. I don't even think he'd do well in the championship because he's fecking terrified of any kind of physical contact or challenge. First goal today just summed him up. A good defender either wins the ball or doesn't get drawn out of position in the first place, a competent or bad one fouls the man or stops them playing the ball back into the space. I don't even know what Lindelof is. I can't think of any other CB in the league who'd cost their team a goal as easily as that, apart from fecking Maguire.

Thing is at least Maguire can be a competent defender when he's on his game and if you set up correctly. The best you get from lindelof is that the game will pass without him fecking up or really having to do anything.

 

[noodlehair]

Yep, even for the first goal he goes after the player and just keeps running beside him, not putting any pressure or much less tackling him. Frustrating to see.

It's beyond frustrating. He's cost the team the game with that.

I've lost count of the number of games where his "defending" has taken away any chance the team has to compete and get a result. And this sentence can apply to him or Maguire. If you stuck them in any team in the bottom half, they'd get relegated, and I don't think I'm being at all dramatic. They'd lose every game where the opposition either counter attacked or put them under pressure for more than 5 minutes

For all the stick Mcfred would get, at least they can compete against the less high level opponents. Lindelof and Maguire get found out by literally any attacking player who gets the ball. Lindelof looked like a scared child against the fifth best team in Cyprus

 

[Sunny Jim]

Lindelof was pathetic for the third goal. Should have just cleaned out the Villa man 5-10 yards outside the box. Martinez is one of the few in the squad with the required aggression, full stop.

And sometimes yes, taking man and/or ball is required. There are good yellows. We only give away cheap yellows. We're still quite a navie team.

That third goal is an enigma for me. Nobody was tracking back to prevent the danger. The guy who acored was alone 12 yards from goal.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Agree, Lindelof for the first goal has to either win the ball or take the foul, once he presses, breaks the shape he can't allow the guy to turn and play a progressive pass.

This happened so much last season with Maguire as well, they’re both so soft. It’s like the first thing you learn as a CB, in those kinds of situations you try to win the ball but you also just make sure you get in a position to haul down the man, tug the short a little or block them off in case they get there first. CBs do this all the time and you usually don’t even get booked for the first one.

Three years under Ole and everyone went soft, no aggression, no bite. Look how different the new signings seems, they’re like rabid dogs compared to our wet blankets.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

In case you need a stat to somewhat illustrate this point, Lindelof has 19 bookings to his name at Manchester United so far.

Martinez already has 6.

 

[elmo]

I’ve been saying it for very long already, Lindelof is a defender whose method of defending is to step back and pray for somebody else to help him or hope the opponent fecks up for no reason.

His stats looks good because he’s only going to challenge for balls that he knows he can win. He’s a fecking waste of space and anyone who uses stats as some kind of example that Lindelof is a good defender needs to admit that they’re not watching the games. Nobody who watches him play will ever think he’s good defender.

 

[nakpodiareuben]

I use to argue for Lindelof.But yesterday, I saw what I always see in his game. He is weak defending, always allow players come at him, he is rarely proactive and can't deal with one on one. He is not even good enough for a backup going by the standard Martinez is setting. Martinez and co definitely don't trust him

 

[UpWithRivers]

The whole defense was sht yesterday. We conceded one dodgy penalty in what 12 hours then conceded 3 yesterday. Even Martinez made mistakes. Second goal he gave the ball away and you could say him and Shaw sat off and allowed the pass from Watkins for the first and then allowed Bailly to turn and run at them. The third goal Ramsey was free in the middle of our goal. Easy cut back by Watkins. Literally the whole defense that has been one of if not the best in the Prem played below par and was making mistakes. Why? Because we were being over run in midfield and players were running at the defense from everywhere. Lindelof made mistakes. Yes he should have been more aggressive. But he needed help. He knew he doesnt have the pace to beat Watkins so he drop back off him. Watkins doesn't beat him either time. He just gets space then has an easy pass. Maguire would lunge in yes but he would miss and then the players are running at the defense with no Maguire anywhere near. At least Lindelof was in position. Where was Dalot and Rashford for the first goal? Why was two Villa players in an easy pocket of space just in front of Martinez and Shaw? Mistakes everywhere. The defense looks sht when the are not helped by the players in front of them. We defend as a team. I wont say Lindelof is class or played well but making him the scapegoat for the loss is harsh.

 

[Siorac]

Varane too. Most teams don't have excellent 3rd and 4th choice centerbacks. It is what it is.

Yeah the real problem is that Varane is made of glass. We won't have a better 3rd choice CB than Lindelöf or Maguire - very few clubs, if any, do. The issue is they have to play a lot more than what is healthy because of Varane being basically broken.

 

[Ish]

Lindelof was pathetic for the third goal. Should have just cleaned out the Villa man 5-10 yards outside the box. Martinez is one of the few in the squad with the required aggression, full stop.

And sometimes yes, taking man and/or ball is required. There are good yellows. We only give away cheap yellows. We're still quite a navie team.

Aye lindelof had me fuming for the third. Villa guy picks the ball up a couple of yards in our half - barely over the halfway line and lindelof is right there. Take the foul, stop the counter/attack…but no, he backs off without any attempt at a tackle all the way into our box ffs. Amateur hour.

 

[Grande]

Lindelof was pathetic for the third goal. Should have just cleaned out the Villa man 5-10 yards outside the box. Martinez is one of the few in the squad with the required aggression, full stop.

And sometimes yes, taking man and/or ball is required. There are good yellows. We only give away cheap yellows. We're still quite a navie team.

Lindelöf has played well the last games, but vs Aston Villa he (and Martinez) had a downer. There were mny details tht weren’t quite right on the goals, but I agree, the not fouling the man there was the most annoying.

 

[bond19821982]

Third goal is on Lindelof. Look at the amount of time and space Watkins had before squaring the ball inside the box. It's not like it's Messi or someone else who will dribble past you if you commit. Just go hard and take a foul ffs.

Can't believe we have to teach them how to defend.

 

[Adamsk7]

If we’re gonna do anything next season, we have to improve on Lindelof and Maguire. Shipping them both out and getting in two new players will do as much for our chances of top four next season as a striker will

 

[UpWithRivers]

Third goal is on Lindelof. Look at the amount of time and space Watkins had before squaring the ball inside the box. It's not like it's Messi or someone else who will dribble past you if you commit. Just go hard and take a foul ffs.

Can't believe we have to teach them how to defend.

I just dont understand this. Not just you everyone but me sees it this way. If you are one one one with an attacker. Especially an attacker thats faster and stronger than you, then your first job is to delay and allow time for your teammates to get into position. And thats what he does. He doesnt allow him to get past him. He doesnt allow a shot on goal. And he doesnt allow a cross. And he is expecting everyone else to get into position and pick up the other Villa plyers. He has got his man and his man isnt going to get past him or score This is defending 101. The criminality of the goal is Ramsey running unchallenged and free from midfield. Plus we have 3 defenders - Shaw, Eriken and Martinez in the box looking to deal with a cross but not dealing with the 3 Villa players at the edge of the box. Plus Casemiro is running back to help Lindelof but doesnt get there in time. If you allow 3 players to stand free 2 meters from Watkins then its piss easy for him to pass it. i dont care if Varane was there instead of Lindelof. Stopping easy passes is near impossible. Now sure a really top notch defender might engage Watkins and maybe take him out but Lindelof followed the rules of defending and if the others did their job it would have been enough to stop the goal. If Varane did this instead of Lindelof everyone would say it was intelligent defending.

 

[OnlyTwoDaSilvas]

That was one of the few things that Bailly did well. If he broke the line and chased the ball around instead of holding position, he'd at least commit some sort of egregious assault on whoever is on the ball.

Lindelof chasing the ball 20 yards out of position and not even attempting to take the ball or the man was just comical.

 

[Zlatans Knee]

The weird thing is that even if he is captain of the Swedish national team, most Swedish supporters recognise that Lindelöf is utter trash.

 

[Lentwood]

I’ve been saying it for very long already, Lindelof is a defender whose method of defending is to step back and pray for somebody else to help him or hope the opponent fecks up for no reason.

His stats looks good because he’s only going to challenge for balls that he knows he can win. He’s a fecking waste of space and anyone who uses stats as some kind of example that Lindelof is a good defender needs to admit that they’re not watching the games. Nobody who watches him play will ever think he’s good defender.

Exactly how I feel about him. He's so passive, he basically does all the nice easy work and leaves all the actual defending to everybody else

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I can't be the only one who is unhealthily wound up by the ineptitude of a centre back who takes it upon himself to break the defensive line, press an attacker, and then either allow man or ball to be casually played around him into the acre of space he's just vacated?

Aren't you taught, at some stage, to take out the man and accept your card for messing up?

Martinez does everything in his power to follow the principle: Maguire and Lindelof constantly fall foul of not following this most basic of "rules". Varane rarely finds himself in the predicament of having to make the choice, but I'd like to think he too has the cynicism to understand immediately that you do not let play go around and/or through you.

How many other top clubs have more than one CB that doesn't follow such a fundamental code of conduct?

Pretty sure this “fundamental code of conduct” isn’t a thing, at any level of football.

If central defenders deliberately wiped someone out every time they step out of their defensive line to harry an opposition player - but don’t end up winning the ball - we would literally never see a game end with 22 players still on the pitch.

 

[Giggsy13]

Looks like we’ll have to break the bank on another CB next summer.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

That was one of the few things that Bailly did well. If he broke the line and chased the ball around instead of holding position, he'd at least commit some sort of egregious assault on whoever is on the ball.

Lindelof chasing the ball 20 yards out of position and not even attempting to take the ball or the man was just comical.

I reckon it's incredibly rare for a defender to follow someone that far and NOT commit a foul, if not intentionally then just by the sheer virtue of being too tight and eventually giving one away accidentally.

 

[bond19821982]

I just dont understand this. Not just you everyone but me sees it this way. If you are one one one with an attacker. Especially an attacker thats faster and stronger than you, then your first job is to delay and allow time for your teammates to get into position. And thats what he does. He doesnt allow him to get past him. He doesnt allow a shot on goal. And he doesnt allow a cross. And he is expecting everyone else to get into position and pick up the other Villa plyers. He has got his man and his man isnt going to get past him or score This is defending 101. The criminality of the goal is Ramsey running unchallenged and free from midfield. Plus we have 3 defenders - Shaw, Eriken and Martinez in the box looking to deal with a cross but not dealing with the 3 Villa players at the edge of the box. Plus Casemiro is running back to help Lindelof but doesnt get there in time. If you allow 3 players to stand free 2 meters from Watkins then its piss easy for him to pass it. i dont care if Varane was there instead of Lindelof. Stopping easy passes is near impossible. Now sure a really top notch defender might engage Watkins and maybe take him out but Lindelof followed the rules of defending and if the others did their job it would have been enough to stop the goal. If Varane did this instead of Lindelof everyone would say it was intelligent defending.

If we are playing a low block, I would agree with you. You know you are outnumbered and there won't be enough legs moving back so let me take a foul and let others come back. That's the basic idea of defending from front. Whatever you explained is passive defending where you let the attacker make a call what to so next.

 

[CloneMC16]

Maguire gets more abuse than Lindelof because he's actively doing more. He ends up making mistakes that are very obvious and costly. Maguire will usually play aggressively and get dribbled/passed past, or he'll take too long on the ball (he's looking for a progressive pass) and get it taken away. What Lindelof did for the first goal isn't typical of him. He rarely follows his man like that. Most of his defending is passive. Since he doesn't usually put in a challenge, it's rare for him to be dribbled past. He waits for backup. He also usually doesn't hold on to the ball too long. He is very good at playing long passes over the top to Rashford, but most of his passes are sideways passes.

The first goal is not entirely on Lindelof. Casemiro has to drop in at CB when he sees Lindelof vacating his position. He's ball watching and only realises the danger when the ball makes it to Ramsey. Eriksen is also not doing his defensive job. He's also ball watching and should have been way closer to Ramsey. I don't think Lindelof needs to make a cynical challenge in that scenario. There are five players behind him. The midfield hasn't done their job. They left gaps and players open. Lindelof's style of defending can be frustrating, but the first goal is on the midfield as much as him.

The biggest problem with him is in 1v1's. He's too scared of being dribbled past. You're not always going to get backup when we're playing with our whole team in the opposite half. When we face transitions, you have to be comfortable defending 1v1, or you're not going to cut it in this system.

The third goal is typical Lindelof defending. It looks like he's waiting for Casemiro to help him. Even with that goal, Ramsey is completely unmarked on the edge of our box. If we're allowing teams to have a free man on the edge of our box, we're asking to concede. When the ball makes it to Watkins, we're in a 3v2 in our favour. They still score. Eriksen is getting back and very aware of the threat from Buendia. I don't know what the answer is here. Ramsey is the space you'd expect Casemiro to defend, but he's trying to help Lindelof.

We're going to need a better 3rd choice CB. Varane is too unreliable. Whoever is 3rd choice is probably going to get a lot of games. They're going to need to be almost as good as a starter.

 

[stefan92]

Pretty sure this “fundamental code of conduct” isn’t a thing, at any level of football.

If central defenders deliberately wiped someone out every time they step out of their defensive line to harry an opposition player - but don’t end up winning the ball - we would literally never see a game end with 22 players still on the pitch.

True, there is something missing in the OP: Is the CB covered by someone else? Most often we see this kind of CB going forward in back three formations, where he can be definitely covered and doesn’t have to worry about this.

Similar movements happen in back four formations that use a conservative fullback who can move inside to cover.

If a CB however does such a charge and knows that he isn't covered well, then he has to take the risk of having to commit a foul. And this kind of uncovered charge rarely happens in matches, that's why it rarely leeds to severe consequences.

 

[IFC 1905]

This is the exact same play but with Martinez. As soon as Watkins tries to escape full speed, he fouls him.

 

[Marwood]

You have to do something if you follow the CF that deep but this is Lindelof, actual defending is a last resort for him.

Watkins for 1st and 3rd goal did nothing special at all. He didn't have to.