Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

stefan92 said:
I'm all for supporting the Ukrainian people, but their government and diplomats lost a lot of my respect in recent days.
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Sorry but we Germans need to stop being offended over every little thing and start taking our heads out of our asses. Let's start behaving like Europe's most powerful country. That means making decisions and not hiding like we usually do. And how do they lost your respect , because of diplomatic errors ? What kind of respect is that ffs
 
stefan92 said:
It's not that simple. For example Slovakia delivered S-300 air defenses to Ukraine - great. Why did they feel safe to do that? Because Germany moved Patriot systems there. Germany is doing a huge amount of economical aid and is the amongst the biggest supporters there, in some regards even the biggest.

Weapon deliveries to Ukraine have been a difficult topic, I'll admit, and that isn't great. But this incident gives those people an excuse that are supporting NOT delivering weapons, therefore it wasn't wise. And therefore I disagree with @Zehner - while this sits well with those critical, it won't convince those that have to be convinced to increase our support.
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This is literally 1-to-1 how I see it:
 
ColoRed said:
Sorry but we Germans need to stop being offended over every little thing and start taking our heads out of our asses. Let's start behaving like Europe's most powerful country. That means making decisions and not hiding like we usually do. And how do they lost your respect , because of diplomatic errors ? What kind of respect is that ffs
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For example I don't think that Zelensky's government did enough against corruption and oligarchy in Ukraine, so I was quite critical of him before this war started. He proves to be a great leader for his people during this war, but apart from that I'm just not convinced.
 
Rajma said:
This is literally 1-to-1 how I see it:
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That tweet exactly proves my point. A lot of outrage over an unnecessary diplomatic incident, which does just not help the Ukrainian cause.
 
All the german folk on here - we see you as the leaders in Europe, most of us in the EU aspire and look up to you and simply want you to act finally on behalf of democratic Europe by standing up to the war criminals and defending our core values. Getting offended at the slightest of opportunity and inconvenience after all the past mistakes is anything but leadership.
 
stefan92 said:
It's not that simple. For example Slovakia delivered S-300 air defenses to Ukraine - great. Why did they feel safe to do that? Because Germany moved Patriot systems there. Germany is doing a huge amount of economical aid and is the amongst the biggest supporters there, in some regards even the biggest.

Weapon deliveries to Ukraine have been a difficult topic, I'll admit, and that isn't great. But this incident gives those people an excuse that are supporting NOT delivering weapons, therefore it wasn't wise. And therefore I disagree with @Zehner - while this sits well with those critical, it won't convince those that have to be convinced to increase our support.
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USA. It was USA. Germany did nothing. Stop the nonsense please.
 
Rajma said:
All the german folk on here - we see you as the leaders in Europe, most of us in the EU aspire and look up to you and simply want you to act finally on behalf of democratic Europe by standing up to the war criminals and defending our core values. Getting offended at the slightest of opportunity and inconvenience after all the past mistakes is anything but leadership.
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True. But the thing is, Europeans actually wanting German leadership is a quite new development and our politicians haven't adjusted very well to this.

If the cause wouldn't be so sad it would be quite funny how many peoples demand German leadership now, that either lived in fear of Germany dominating them or just calling our politicians Hitler at the first possible cause. In a way there have been decades of intoctrination against German leadership in Germany following WW2. The UK even tried to prevent the German reunification essentially out of fear of Germany becoming too strong.
 
stefan92 said:
For example I don't think that Zelensky's government did enough against corruption and oligarchy in Ukraine, so I was quite critical of him before this war started. He proves to be a great leader for his people during this war, but apart from that I'm just not convinced.
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And that shows how we Germans are increasingly seen internationally. Weak leaders and offended moralists who like to dictate but are as agile as a container ship in domestic and foreign policy. That may be harsh, but it is by no means a great exaggeration. What do you think about the "Zeitenwende"?
 
ColoRed said:
And that shows how we Germans are increasingly seen internationally. Weak leaders and offended moralists who like to dictate but are as agile as a container ship in domestic and foreign policy. That may be harsh, but it is by no means a great exaggeration. What do you think about the "Zeitenwende"?
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Yep, and that view is justified, I'll admit that. I just try to give some background here for other folks who really don't seem to grasp that a lot of Germans are so terrified of getting involved in something which could lead to WW3 because of our responsibility for WW2 (and to a lesser degree for WW1).

And I also say that this is a stupid view to hold today, and it is a tragedy that we allowed the SPD to lead the government. It was on track to become totally irrelevant, until everybody else decided to act like even bigger idiots. And now we've got a mess where we have a chancellor that doesn't lead and a defence minister that is totally incompetent (but in the SPD), while someone who would be really qualified to do a great job there is limited to being leader of the parliamentary committee of defence.

So I agree with Scholz that we need a "Zeitenwende", but for me it can't have SPD as part of it but the total annihilation of the SPD.
 
The BBC reports:

"Western officials say Ukrainian claims to have hit the Russian cruiser, the Moskva, with their own domestically developed Neptune missile are “credible.”

One official said the loss of the Moskva, if confirmed, was a “massive blow” to Russian military credibility, regardless of how it happened.

He said he was not aware of another case, involving a capital ship, in which a fire had led to the explosion of the ammunition magazine - something Russia has claimed. This, the official said, would represent “remarkably inept” control by crew - and it was hard to believe that this was how the incident occurred.

The official added that the loss of the Moskva would have “a significant impact" on Russian maritime operations.

As flagship of Russia’s Black Sea fleet, the Moskva was providing vital command and control functions for the rest of the fleet. This would now be harder – but not impossible – for Russia to achieve.

But if this is proven to have been a successful Ukrainian strike, he said it suggested the fleet’s air defences were vulnerable.

On recent Russian attacks on Ukrainian fuel and ammunition depots, the official said these were evidence of an effort to limit the resupply and manoeuverability of Ukrainian forces.

But he did not believe the strikes had reached a level where they would have an immediate effect.

On Russian casualties, he said the Western count was "somewhat lower" than Ukraine’s figure (currently 19,700 Russian dead), but that “incredible numbers" had been killed.

The official said Russia’s air force was still not able to operate beyond the forward line of Russian troops, because it was "terrified" of flying over Ukrainian-held positions. This was due to a combination of Ukrainian air defence systems and systems provided by the West.

Officials said torrential rain in eastern Ukraine was also having an effect, making it harder for Russian forces to operate off road, and slowing down their ability to mass troops."
 
stefan92 said:
Please keep your facts straight. The systems there are manned by German and Dutch soldiers and were moved there from the Bundeswehr site in Husum:
https://www.rnd.de/politik/bundeswe...-die-slowakei-27EOZLTKZDO4B3ZLRJQEP5DCKE.html
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Wall Street Journal
U.S. to Send Patriot Missile Systems to Poland
https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/ru...issile-systems-to-poland-Jb2ydLPC30HkBQ9jSvOm

It is true that Germany has given 1 billion euros to Ukraine during this war. It is also true that Germany has given 40 billion euros to Russia during this war. That's the German contribution so far, as far as I know, the ratio is 40:1 towards Russia.

We also know that Gerhard Schröder was practically a Russian agent. We don't know how many others in the German government are Russian agents and spies. Could be a lot, given that in December, when the USA was predicting war, the German agencies were saying the opposite. This is not just due to incompetence, it points to corruption. This might be a reason why Germany is not helping Ukraine that much, and in practice it is still helping Russia more.

Germany must do more in this war to help Ukraine, that's what all the Western countries agree with. They simply have to do more, not in words, in practice.
 
frostbite said:
Wall Street Journal
U.S. to Send Patriot Missile Systems to Poland
https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/ru...issile-systems-to-poland-Jb2ydLPC30HkBQ9jSvOm

It is true that Germany has given 1 billion euros to Ukraine during this war. It is also true that Germany has given 40 billion euros to Russia during this war. That's the German contribution so far, as far as I know, the ratio is 40:1 towards Russia.

We also know that Gerhard Schröder was practically a Russian agent. We don't know how many others in the German government are Russian agents and spies. Could be a lot, given that in December, when the USA was predicting war, the German agencies were saying the opposite. This might be a reason why Germany is not helping Ukraine that much, and in practice it is still helping Russia more.

Germany must do more in this war to help Ukraine, that's what all the Western countries agree with. They simply have to do more, not in words, in practice.
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That's not Slovakia
 
frostbite said:
Wall Street Journal
U.S. to Send Patriot Missile Systems to Poland
https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/ru...issile-systems-to-poland-Jb2ydLPC30HkBQ9jSvOm

It is true that Germany has given 1 billion euros to Ukraine during this war. It is also true that Germany has given 40 billion euros to Russia during this war. That's the German contribution so far, as far as I know, the ratio is 40:1 towards Russia.

We also know that Gerhard Schröder was practically a Russian agent. We don't know how many others in the German government are Russian agents and spies. Could be a lot, given that in December, when the USA was predicting war, the German agencies were saying the opposite. This is not just due to incompetence, it points to corruption. This might be a reason why Germany is not helping Ukraine that much, and in practice it is still helping Russia more.

Germany must do more in this war to help Ukraine, that's what all the Western countries agree with. They simply have to do more, not in words, in practice.
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Please learn which countries exist in Europe before commenting. I was talking about Slovakia, not Poland. You are of course right that the US send Patriots to Poland, but that wasn't the point of my post.
 
frostbite said:
Do you want Slovakia, too? You can simply use google.

U.S. sending Patriot missile system to Slovakia
https://www.politico.com/news/2022/04/08/u-s-patriot-missile-system-slovakia-00024116

The United States make the decisions about Patriot Missiles in Europe. It is that simple.
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Read your own source please: "The system also “complements the NATO multinational battlegroup in eastern Slovakia, which includes air defense elements from Germany and the Netherlands,” he added."
 
frostbite said:
Do you want Slovakia, too? You can simply use google.

U.S. sending Patriot missile system to Slovakia
https://www.politico.com/news/2022/04/08/u-s-patriot-missile-system-slovakia-00024116

The United States make the decisions about Patriot Missiles in Europe. It is that simple.
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Did you read the article?

The system also “complements the NATO multinational battlegroup in eastern Slovakia, which includes air defense elements from Germany and the Netherlands,” he added.
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stefan92 said:
Please learn which countries exist in Europe before commenting. I was talking about Slovakia, not Poland. You are of course right that the US send Patriots to Poland, but that wasn't the point of my post.
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And your point was? Do you really think that Germany is helping the defence of Ukraine and Eastern Europe and not the USA?
 
frostbite said:
And your post was? Do you really think that Germany is helping the defence of Ukraine and Eastern Europe and not the USA?
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I posted about the German contribution and that we do at least fulfill some backfill for other countries that send their stock of weapons to Ukraine. You denied any German contribution by claiming it was the US that did it and Germany wasn't involved. I wasn't even talking about the US until you started to lie about German contribution.
 
Rajma said:

Mental gymnastics by Russia.
It was sunk yesterday but cool story bro.
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Yeah, but this time isn't it the Russian MOD saying it?

Or do you mean that it really was sunk yesterday, but the Russians didn't want to to admit it?
 
I think we are entering an important point in this war. Ukraine can win this war. And it is very important for Americans and Europeans to really force Germany help with this. They are still doing very little. They have to do much more and probably they have to be forced to do the right thing. All European countries should tell Germany this. It is crucial!



The High Price of German Hesitancy

https://carnegieeurope.eu/strategiceurope/86872

A Russian victory in Ukraine would change the map of Europe. Germany could help prevent this by sending vital military equipment to Kyiv and banning Russian energy imports.
 
Putin getting a sinking feeling that all is not well.
 
nimic said:
I don't think that's supposed to be spin, "it was hit so bad that it sunk while it was being towed" isn't exactly the official story either. Do you have any evidence it actually sunk immediately?
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@GlastonSpur, It was confirmed by our minister of defense via Romanian/Turkish sources in the black sea.

 
stefan92 said:
I posted about the German contribution and that we do at least fulfill some backfill for other countries that send their stock of weapons to Ukraine. You denied any German contribution by claiming it was the US that did it and Germany wasn't involved. I wasn't even talking about the US until you started to lie about German contribution.
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I am afraid Germany is very corrupted by Russian interests. Gerhard Schröder was on Putin's payroll. Do you think that other German officials also made a fortune supporting Putin? Could this be one of the reasons that Germany is not helping Ukraine as much as it could?
 
frostbite said:
I am afraid Germany is very corrupted by Russian interests. Gerhard Schröder was on Putin's payroll. Do you think that other German officials also made a fortune supporting Putin? Could this be one of the reasons that Germany is not helping Ukraine as much as it could?
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I think it's simpler, Germany's economic interests aligned extremely well with the Russian, and getting closer to them was essentially German doctrine since the 70s and proved successful as it was crucial for the German reunification. This wouldn't have been possible without huge concessions of the Soviets, so from a German perspective Russia was much less hostile than it was to other countries like the Baltic states.
 
If this is true, it may really help Ukraine in this war. From Forbes:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelpeck/2022/04/13/ukraine-may-get-us-mq-9-reaper-strike-drones

Ukraine May Get U.S. MQ-9 Reaper Strike Drones

Ukraine is in talks to purchase American-made heavy attack drones that could shift the balance of the Russia-Ukraine war.

Ukrainian officials met in Washington last week with General Atomics, the California-based manufacturer of military drones, including the MQ-9 Reaper, the U.S. Air Force’s primary reconnaissance and strike UAV. Though the U.S. government would have to approve any sale, it is unlikely that such talks between Ukraine and a U.S. defense contractor would have happened without a green light from the Biden administration.
 
stefan92 said:
I think it's simpler, Germany's economic interests aligned extremely well with the Russian, and getting closer to them was essentially German doctrine since the 70s and proved successful as it was crucial for the German reunification. This wouldn't have been possible without huge concessions of the Soviets, so from a German perspective Russia was much less hostile than it was to other countries like the Baltic states.
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Sometimes history depends on a few very crucial people. For example, if Trump was still president today, I am afraid it is quite possible that USA would be bombing and denazifying Ukraine together with brother Vlad!
 
frostbite said:
Sometimes history depends on a few very crucial people. For example, if Trump was still president today, I am afraid it is quite possible that USA would be bombing and denazifying Ukraine together with brother Vlad!
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Come on. Trump was an idiot, but bombing Ukraine? Nah.
 
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