Cristiano Ronaldo : The Juventus Chapter | Fin

[Daysleeper]

This is a reasonable view and shows how different Juve fans think to a few on here talking about his greed ruining Juve - the club chose to sign him and chose to pay him...was he meant to refuse and demand a lower salary? Signing Ramsey on stupid wages was far more damaging and stupid. Also funny how Messi's salary is a factor in why Barcelona are facing bankruptcy but that seems to rarely surface as a negative against him.

Realistically this is Ronaldo's last Euros in my opinion, let's just appreciate a GOAT whilst he's still playing.

Barca’s issues come more from the horrible contracts handed out to Griezmann, coutinho, dembele, Sergi Roberto and others. The athletic already did an article showing how Barca still make money on Messi while it’s the other signings bringing them down.

Ronaldo was the lone “poison pill” contract on a team that had no money to spend elsewhere so of course he’ll get more scrutiny

 

[Morty_]

Barca’s issues come more from the horrible contracts handed out to Griezmann, coutinho, dembele, Sergi Roberto and others. The athletic already did an article showing how Barca still make money on Messi while it’s the other signings bringing them down.

Ronaldo was the lone “poison pill” contract on a team that had no money to spend elsewhere so of course he’ll get more scrutiny

I know its repeated over and over again, that Juventus went broke over Ronaldo, but its not actually true.

Juventus spent a good amount of money on other players beside Ronaldo in recent years.

 

[barros]

he isn't hated.
But covid hit hard italian clubs Juventus as well so his 60m gross wages are too high for us to handle.
He is great but focus too much on himself during the game leading to the other strikers to fail to deliver as well making him the 80% of Juventus finalized goals.
Which in a sense isn't good.
Actually if we didn't have financial problems (if we don't sell anyone we'll hit a -200m this fiscal year) we would never sell Ronaldo.
Our problems is that we got Ronaldo but failed to put a decent team around him.
He had to be the icing on the cake but instead became the cake itself.
Our midfield is atrocious but we don't have money to improve it unless Exor once again after 2019 put another 300m cash

I never understood why Juventus sold Cancelo when he was already a good player, they should keep the good players not selling them if they wanted to reach the CL final....and Pirlo as a coach..........

 

[barros]

Barca’s issues come more from the horrible contracts handed out to Griezmann, coutinho, dembele, Sergi Roberto and others. The athletic already did an article showing how Barca still make money on Messi while it’s the other signings bringing them down.

Ronaldo was the lone “poison pill” contract on a team that had no money to spend elsewhere so of course he’ll get more scrutiny

not sure about that the Spanish newspapers leaked his contract situation with Barca and was 555 million euros for a few years, a lot of money for a player that's on decline and for a club that's on verge of bankruptcy.

 

[Daysleeper]

not sure about that the Spanish newspapers leaked his contract situation with Barca and was 555 million euros for a few years, a lot of money for a player that's on decline and for a club that's on verge of bankruptcy.

yes and for a player who is still top 3 in the world and the athletic did a breakdown showing he was more than worth that money for all the revenue he brings in as he’s a big part of their tourism. Again, Messi’s salary isn’t the issue, it’s the 5+ terrible contracts they’ve handed to the other players


Is there any way selling Messi makes financial sense for Barcelona?

https://theathletic.com/2018881/202...arcelona-transfer/?source=user_shared_article

short answer: No

 

[Daysleeper]

I never understood why Juventus sold Cancelo when he was already a good player, they should keep the good players not selling them if they wanted to reach the CL final....and Pirlo as a coach..........

biggest mistake of Ronaldo’s career was signing with Juventus. He had a huge supporting cast that helped him tremendously and walking away from that was quite foolish.

 

[Bepi]

Is he hated by your fans? He was brought in to deliver the CL, but has failed.

He never connected, he just acted the alien part, in the end pursuing his own records. Sure, we are not Real Madrid, still as a team we really went backwards with him. On the contrary, Tevez, Mandzukic and even Higuain did more, making the team more than the sum of the parts. No hate, then, just a failed gamble. He needed to go last year, he needs to go now, but nobody with a sane mind will pay him €31m/net year, so let’s wait and see.

 

[bakalhau]

biggest mistake of Ronaldo’s career was signing with Juventus. He had a huge supporting cast that helped him tremendously and walking away from that was quite foolish.

I have to agree, I think both parties lost with the move. Madrid's team was absolutely fantastic, Ronaldo just being the "bestest" of them all, but I actually keep watching Juventus being awful almost every game. The difference is night and day even when you compare them to this season's Madrid. I can't blame Ronaldo though for moving, he set himself for another new challenge somewhere else and despite me not wanting it to happen, when he gets something on his head, no one can change his mind. He doesn't know what's it like to be satisfied, always looking for something new that allows him to write another new piece for his personal story. That's something I can appreciate.

 

[RedRonaldo]

He never connected, he just acted the alien part, in the end pursuing his own records. Sure, we are not Real Madrid, still as a team we really went backwards with him. On the contrary, Tevez, Mandzukic and even Higuain did more, making the team more than the sum of the parts. No hate, then, just a failed gamble. He needed to go last year, he needs to go now, but nobody with a sane mind will pay him €31m/net year, so let’s wait and see.

What are you expecting? Even Barca moved backwards with Messi in past 2-3 years despite the huge wages. You can't really only blame their best player for that. There are other problems.

 

[Daysleeper]

I have to agree, I think both parties lost with the move. Madrid's team was absolutely fantastic, Ronaldo just being the "bestest" of them all, but I actually keep watching Juventus being awful almost every game. The difference is night and day even when you compare them to this season's Madrid. I can't blame Ronaldo though for moving, he set himself for another new challenge somewhere else and despite me not wanting it to happen, when he gets something on his head, no one can change his mind. He doesn't know what's it like to be satisfied, always looking for something new that allows him to write another new piece for his personal story. That's something I can appreciate.

He left because of money, not because of the challenge. Not faulting him if that was his M.O., but it was nothing like when he left United. He left because he felt Madrid weren't paying him enough.

 

[Gehrman]

biggest mistake of Ronaldo’s career was signing with Juventus. He had a huge supporting cast that helped him tremendously and walking away from that was quite foolish.

He left Madrid on a unprecedented high though. He might not have replicated his succes at Juventus in terms of CL glory but that was a tough order anyway.

 

[Bebestation]

I’m not sure why it’s bad Ronaldo moved to Juventus - his achievements there is equal or even better than his rival players have achieved in the same period playing for their own same team, same style and same opponents most of their life.

I hope Allegri can help and manage Juventus getting to one more CL final like he did in his last tenure but with Ronaldo as one of his players. Would be great to see.

 

[Bebestation]

He left because of money, not because of the challenge. Not faulting him if that was his M.O., but it was nothing like when he left United. He left because he felt Madrid weren't paying him enough.

 

[bakalhau]

I can't really imagine a guy like Ronaldo making career decisions because of money first and foremost. He clearly loves his money, but he cares much more about football. I spent way too much time following this guy, and I just can't believe with everything he puts day in day out that he'd ever move because of money.

Moving because he was talking in private with Perez and things were discussed, and Perez took a step back in terms of money, contract duration, etc, I can see how you can say it was because of 'money', not gonna say you can't grab that as an argument, but I believe if what I mentioned earlier was true, he'd feel more inclined to move because of his pride in feeling he was worth the money/contract duration, rather than the whatever millions more he'd get.

 

[RedRonaldo]

biggest mistake of Ronaldo’s career was signing with Juventus. He had a huge supporting cast that helped him tremendously and walking away from that was quite foolish.

Even if he stays it doesn't guarantee he could win another CL. It takes lots of luck too and he is in his mid-30s anyway, so its never easy. By moving to Juventus, at least he still manage to win a few more domestic trophies, won some individual awards too, and broke some records there. Which isn't too bad when its is clear he is no longer in his peak at such age and was about to approach his retirement years.

 

[dinostar77]

biggest mistake of Ronaldo’s career was signing with Juventus. He had a huge supporting cast that helped him tremendously and walking away from that was quite foolish.

It was a mistake by both Perez and Ronaldo, Ronaldo should have stayed at Madrid. Something alledgly he has acknowledged to journalists off the record. But €100m for a 34 year old is hard to turn down for Perez. The hubris of Perez was that Madrid would be fine without Ronaldo, little did he know Madrid of the past decade was Ronaldo.

 

[Daysleeper]

It was a mistake by both Perez and Ronaldo, Ronaldo should have stayed at Madrid. Something alledgly he has acknowledged to journalists off the record. But €100m for a 34 year old is hard to turn down for Perez. The hubris of Perez was that Madrid would be fine without Ronaldo, little did he know Madrid of the past decade was Ronaldo.

madrid still made the semi finals of CL and
Won half as many leagues as they did with Ronaldo. They definitely needed each other but I’d argue Ronaldo needed Madrid far more than Madrid needed Ronaldo

 

[Wolf1992]

There's a slim chance he could break it in this Euro? Maybe not easy, but he need to score 5 goals to level with record and 6 goals to break it, which is still achievable if Portugal has a good run.

But there's another record he could easily break in Euro - most goals scored in Euro. He is currently level on 9 goals with Platini, so he only need to score 1 more to break the record.

Platini record is more valuable, cause he scored those 9 goals in one Euro, as it was the only Euro he played (it was super hard to qualify for the Euro back then, only 8 slots).
Ironically it was Platini's idea to extend Euro from 16 to 24 teams.

 

[Maluco]

Since Ronaldo went to Italy, he has one two Serie A titles and a Coppa Italia. He has also scored over 100 goals, having signed at the age of 34.

People can talk all they want about how it effects the team, the dynamics, the cohesion, but he is held to ridiculous standards.

A 24 year old going there and doing what he has done would be deemed a massive success. To go there and do it at 34-36 years old is just another fantastic chapter in one of the greatest careers of all time.

 

[Daysleeper]

Since Ronaldo went to Italy, he has one two Serie A titles and a Coppa Italia. He has also scored over 100 goals, having signed at the age of 34.

People can talk all they want about how it effects the team, the dynamics, the cohesion, but he is held to ridiculous standards.

A 24 year old going there and doing what he has done would be deemed a massive success. To go there and do it at 34-36 years old is just another fantastic chapter in one of the greatest careers of all time.

It wouldn’t be a massive success the same way Neymar going to PSG isn’t a massive success. Ronaldo was brought in for on main thing - the CL. I’m not pinning it all on Ronaldo they couldn’t win CL. But Juventus have been massively disappointing in CL considering the expectations upon signing Ronaldo. Losing to far inferior teams and after having 2 CL finals in the past 3 years upon signing Ronaldo to failing to get past the quarter finals. Again, not all Ronaldo’s fault, but it was a lose lose for both parties involved.

 

[RedRonaldo]

It wouldn’t be a massive success the same way Neymar going to PSG isn’t a massive success. Ronaldo was brought in for on main thing - the CL. I’m not pinning it all on Ronaldo they couldn’t win CL. But Juventus have been massively disappointing in CL considering the expectations upon signing Ronaldo. Losing to far inferior teams and after having 2 CL finals in the past 3 years upon signing Ronaldo to failing to get past the quarter finals. Again, not all Ronaldo’s fault, but it was a lose lose for both parties involved.

The difference is, Ronaldo went there and achieved all those things as a 33-36 year old in his retiring years. Neymar went there and achieved those things as 25-29 years during his peak years. You can’t really expect a 33-36 did the same or better than a 25-29 years old, the expectation level is unreal.

Even players like Maradona, Pele, Cruyff, L.Ronaldo etc did feck all at same age, you can’t really hold such far higher expectation and standard on Ronaldo only, who already did far better than them anyway. I never heard any players in history of game are expected to carry his team to win a CL at this age, not even Messi, but the expectations are only on Ronaldo, which is insane.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Platini record is more valuable, cause he scored those 9 goals in one Euro, as it was the only Euro he played (it was super hard to qualify for the Euro back then, only 8 slots).
Ironically it was Platini's idea to extend Euro from 16 to 24 teams.

Speaking of that, Ronaldo holds the record of most goals scored in qualifiers too, so he does play the biggest part in his team qualifying for various Euro, which allows him plays more Euro and to level the record. I think we also need to give him some credits on that.

 

[Red_toad]

I hope Allegri can help and manage Juventus getting to one more CL final like he did in his last tenure but with Ronaldo as one of his players. Would be great to see.

If he’s doesn’t work for the team and tries to be an individual, Allegri will just bench him. Allegri is all for the team working as a unit, he doesn’t really care about hurting ego’s. Ronaldo won’t win against the manager this time round and he knows it. I wonder if someone will bring up the slavery issue again when no one will buy him...

 

[RedRonaldo]

If he’s doesn’t work for the team and tries to be an individual, Allegri will just bench him. Allegri is all for the team working as a unit, he doesn’t really care about hurting ego’s. Ronaldo won’t win against the manager this time round and he knows it. I wonder if someone will bring up the slavery issue again when no one will buy him...

I don’t quite understand this thinking. As a forward, he does his job in scoring a lot of goals for his team, which is his main role in the team. Apart from his goals, he also has most dribble in his team too (ranked 1st in his team with avg 1.8 dribble per game last season, more than anyone else, such as Chiesa 1.6, Cuadrado 1.5, Dybala1.4). He also ranked 7th in key pass and 3rd in through balls despite playing the most advance position up front.

In comparison, the best player/forward in world today, Lewandoski, ranked 11th in dribbling, 5th in key pass and 8th in through ball in his team, which is lower than Ronaldo in terms of attacking contribution to his team (apart from his goals).

The only thing you could criticize him for not working for his team is his defending, which is close to non-existence. But it’s abit odd to criticize a forward/top goalscorer for not defending anyway. If that’s the case for Allegri (pressing > scoring goals), maybe he should sign players like Lingard instead (Man Utd version)

 

[Maluco]

It wouldn’t be a massive success the same way Neymar going to PSG isn’t a massive success. Ronaldo was brought in for on main thing - the CL. I’m not pinning it all on Ronaldo they couldn’t win CL. But Juventus have been massively disappointing in CL considering the expectations upon signing Ronaldo. Losing to far inferior teams and after having 2 CL finals in the past 3 years upon signing Ronaldo to failing to get past the quarter finals. Again, not all Ronaldo’s fault, but it was a lose lose for both parties involved.

He is 35/36 years old in this period though! Neymar is in the prime of his career in a much better team.

Juventus lack of planning and bringing in sub par players as a supporting cast has a lot more to do with it.

Time will be kinder to Ronaldo’s latter career. It’s a fantastic level of consistency for his age and he deserves a massive amount of credit.

 

[Red_toad]

I don’t quite understand this thinking

Allegri thinks that way and it certainly has worked for him. You don’t need to understand it.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Allegri thinks that way and it certainly has worked for him. You don’t need to understand it.

So you are Allegri then?
He actually coached Ronaldo 3 years ago and they won the league together with Ronaldo being their best player, in case you somehow miss that one.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Barca’s issues come more from the horrible contracts handed out to Griezmann, coutinho, dembele, Sergi Roberto and others. The athletic already did an article showing how Barca still make money on Messi while it’s the other signings bringing them down.

Ronaldo was the lone “poison pill” contract on a team that had no money to spend elsewhere so of course he’ll get more scrutiny

I could literally just change Juve to Barca in this post and then list all the stupid contacts Juve gave out.

If you’re going to be balanced, you should also include articles about how much money Ronaldo has made Juve. They didn’t sign him just because he’s a good player - they’ve got this massive branding exercise going on and he is the most valuable football player for social media growth. I guess they were also counting on ESL income as well (as we’re Barca).

Covid has exacerbated the issues for both clubs but neither is the reason their clubs are in financial trouble.

 

[Bebestation]

He is 35/36 years old in this period though! Neymar is in the prime of his career in a much better team.

Juventus lack of planning and bringing in sub par players as a supporting cast has a lot more to do with it.

Time will be kinder to Ronaldo’s latter career. It’s a fantastic level of consistency for his age and he deserves a massive amount of credit.

It’s utter biased bullshit.

Messi can’t even get close to a CL final never mind a trophy since both Xavi and Iniesta has left. Arguably playing on the same team with the same shreds of philosophy - players on a completely different level to Juventus yet it’s all amazing when Messi doesn’t win a CL in the last 6 years for the same club with the same dna whilst it’s a disappointment when Ronaldo doesn’t win it with new club at Juventus - being a near 4 years older than him

Just hope that Messi moves to another club instead of feeling at Home at Barcelona during his retirement because if he does move to Man City as an example - a non CL win would be one of the biggest disappointments in history according to these peoples rules. knowing him, he will stay because changing of environment or trying something new is not coming from him.

 

[tomaldinho1]

madrid still made the semi finals of CL and
Won half as many leagues as they did with Ronaldo. They definitely needed each other but I’d argue Ronaldo needed Madrid far more than Madrid needed Ronaldo

This makes absolutely no sense.
You don’t get a trophy for losing in a semi final.

 

[Arios]

I never understood why Juventus sold Cancelo when he was already a good player, they should keep the good players not selling them if they wanted to reach the CL final....and Pirlo as a coach..........

Man many operations in the past 3years makes no sense toward sporting results.
Cancelo was sold because City offered us Danilo + 35m. So we sold Cancelo for 65m when we bought him for 45m.
Meaning PLUSVALENZA. All done to cover the loss on our books.
Which also forced us to trade Spinazzola for Luca Pellegrini with Roma.
Both hyper-valued players.
But one Spinazzola is a real player! While Pellegrini has been on loan for 2 years after "buying him" for 25-26m.

Then I can go on! We bought a kid Rovella from Genoa for 20m + 18m in addons. You might ask "Who the feck is he? why so expensive?"
Well he is so expensive cause we sold to Genoa a player named Sturaro for 18m while he was nowhere near that value.
More like 6-7m.
So Genoa helped us by making another plusvalenza.

Pjanic-Arthur? same fecking shit but on a worse new level!
Pjanic 30yrs old valued 60m versus Arthur 23years old valued 72m.
Barcellona and Juventus helped eachother to cover the books for Financial Fair Play.

I can go on and on with kids from under 23 and primaver getting sold for fees.

Those 2 years of Covid really put us in the spot.
Losing 80m/year in tickets , lower tv rights and what's not.

Then wasting money in a stupid way (Good luck Spurs with Paratici )
Like getting Kulusesvski for 45m in Jannuary 2020 and then in the summer getting Chiesa (same role and position) for 60m.
All this while ignoring the midfield or going cheap in it.
I mean 2 years ago replaced Matuidi and someonelse for Ramsey and Rabiot on a free move but with crazy expensive wages (both players get more than 8m net wages/year)
While Ramsey is always injured and very rarely plays at least Rabiot is healthy and sometimes deliver but still nowhere near worth the 8m net we give him.

Arthur? crappy player that now we're forced to keep cause to sell we'd need to find someone willing to pay him 62m € (roughly 50-55m pounds)

 

[Red_toad]

So you are Allegri then?
He actually coached Ronaldo 3 years ago and they won the league together with Ronaldo being their best player, in case you somehow miss that one.

No I’m not Allegri, just saying his style of management is the team is 100% a unit. You don’t fit in he’ll drop you regardless of reputations or wages.
How did you miss the part about ‘If he doesn’t work for the team and tries to be an individual, Allegri will just bench him’? I’m not saying what Ronaldo will do, as he’s very much capable of changing his style. So try understanding what ‘If’ means.
That said it sure looks like Juve want Ronaldo off the books as they can’t invest in the team with his wages taking up so much revenue and the uncertainty of crowds being allowed back to capacity any time soon.

 

[Arios]

No I’m not Allegri, just saying his style of management is the team is 100% a unit. You don’t fit in he’ll drop you regardless of reputations or wages.
How did you miss the part about ‘If he doesn’t work for the team and tries to be an individual, Allegri will just bench him’? I’m not saying what Ronaldo will do, as he’s very much capable of changing his style. So try understanding what ‘If’ means.
That said it sure looks like Juve want Ronaldo off the books as they can’t invest in the team with his wages taking up so much revenue and the uncertainty of crowds being allowed back to capacity any time soon.

Again the problem isn't only Ronaldo.
It's the whole team wage-structure that it's crazy.
Rabiot 7.5m net + bonus /year meaning 317k €/week
Ramsey 7.5m net + bonus to agents
Szczesny 6.5m net + 2.5m/year to his agents if he stay at Juventus
Bernardeschi 4.5m net/year

Then we have Dybala already at 7.5m net/year wanting 13m net/year to renew his contract or he'll be a free agent next summer
Luckly we dodged Donnarumma bullet! he wanted at least 10m net/year. But since we coudn't offload Szczesny we had to pass on.

 

[Daysleeper]

I could literally just change Juve to Barca in this post and then list all the stupid contacts Juve gave out.

If you’re going to be balanced, you should also include articles about how much money Ronaldo has made Juve. They didn’t sign him just because he’s a good player - they’ve got this massive branding exercise going on and he is the most valuable football player for social media growth. I guess they were also counting on ESL income as well (as we’re Barca).

Covid has exacerbated the issues for both clubs but neither is the reason their clubs are in financial trouble.

I’m not criticizing Ronaldo for accepting the contract, bad management was involved for both clubs, but the contracts Barca handed out were FAR worse than the ones Juve handed out outside of Ronaldo

 

[Daysleeper]

This makes absolutely no sense.
You don’t get a trophy for losing in a semi final.

no it does make sense. It shows that you can still go far in a tourney and have a good squad. A massively injured Madrid squad still did well enough to go this far while a healthy Juve squad couldn’t even get last the quarter finals to much inferior teams. Ronaldo needed Madrid far more than Madrid needed Ronaldo.

 

[Daysleeper]

It’s utter biased bullshit.

Messi can’t even get close to a CL final never mind a trophy since both Xavi and Iniesta has left. Arguably playing on the same team with the same shreds of philosophy - players on a completely different level to Juventus yet it’s all amazing when Messi doesn’t win a CL in the last 6 years for the same club with the same dna whilst it’s a disappointment when Ronaldo doesn’t win it with new club at Juventus - being a near 4 years older than him

Just hope that Messi moves to another club instead of feeling at Home at Barcelona during his retirement because if he does move to Man City as an example - a non CL win would be one of the biggest disappointments in history according to these peoples rules. knowing him, he will stay because changing of environment or trying something new is not coming from him.

2019 was pretty damn close to a CL final wtf

 

[Bebestation]

2019 was pretty damn close to a CL final wtf

Yes let’s not blame Messi when his team loses a 3-0 advantage and end up losing 4-0 on the day he needed to step up the most.

Sounds a bit like the World Cup he lost to Germany doesn’t it?

Barcelona are a next level of average without both Xavi and Iniesta - aka why Barcelona won things the same time Spain National team won things.

 

[SportingCP96]

no it does make sense. It shows that you can still go far in a tourney and have a good squad. A massively injured Madrid squad still did well enough to go this far while a healthy Juve squad couldn’t even get last the quarter finals to much inferior teams. Ronaldo needed Madrid far more than Madrid needed Ronaldo.

This is an awful take.

Madrid we’re perennial R16 exit team before Ronaldo and were a shell of a club before he came in and made them a relevant side again.

4CL 3 of them in a row with him being by far not even close the best and most important and vital player in those teams.

Madrid have a much much much more superior team then Juve who are literally a one man team. If Ronaldo is off bye bye Juve.

Had Ronaldo been in Madrid this season in the semi finals they most likely not only go to the final but they would also win it.

36 year old Ronaldo is still better then 95% of the players in the world today.

Only two other guys are comparable his only equal Messi and the younger Lewa who plays for the best team in the world.

Madrid without Ronaldo to this day would not have won 4 CL titles again.

So Madrid needed Ronaldo a WHOLE lot more then Ronaldo needed them. He had just won a CL without Madrid so ya….

 

[Daysleeper]

This is an awful take.

Madrid we’re perennial R16 exit team before Ronaldo and were a shell of a club before he came in and made them a relevant side again.

4CL 3 of them in a row with him being by far not even close the best and most important and vital player in those teams.

Madrid have a much much much more superior team then Juve who are literally a one man team. If Ronaldo is off bye bye Juve.

Had Ronaldo been in Madrid this season in the semi finals they most likely not only go to the final but they would also win it.

36 year old Ronaldo is still better then 95% of the players in the world today.

Only two other guys are comparable his only equal Messi and the younger Lewa who plays for the best team in the world.

Madrid without Ronaldo to this day would not have won 4 CL titles again.

So Madrid needed Ronaldo a WHOLE lot more then Ronaldo needed them. He had just won a CL without Madrid so ya….

you misunderstood everything I posted. I’m talking Ronaldo AFTER he left Madrid, where yes he needed Madrid far more than Madrid needed him since he left. No question about it

 

[Daysleeper]

Yes let’s not blame Messi when his team loses a 3-0 advantage and end up losing 4-0 on the day he needed to step up the most.

Sounds a bit like the World Cup he lost to Germany doesn’t it?

Barcelona are a next level of average without both Xavi and Iniesta - aka why Barcelona won things the same time Spain National team won things.

And how has Ronaldo fared in the World Cup again?