Pogba is not a left winger

He'sRaldo said:
Pogba generally rips it up when we play him in his favoured area.

He's obviously a LCM but Ole won't move away from a 4-2-3-1, so the left wing is the closest we'll come to seeing Pogba being utilized optimally. The question is if Pogba goes and we go for Grealish, but Rashford still starts on the right, will it be déjà vu all over again?
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Would it be possible in a sort of asymmetrical 4-2-3-1, with a fullback tucking in?

So on paper this:
GK
AWB - RCB - LCB - Shaw
DM - Pogba
RW - Bruno - Rashford
Cavani​

But in real terms in possession it would actually look more like a 1-2-3-3-2 shape. So a goalkeeper, then the two CBs splitting wider, a first three consisting of a more tucked in AWB + DM + Pogba/Shaw, a second three consisting of a RW + Bruno + Pogba/Shaw, and then Rashford pushing in to support Cavani. Or something along those lines.
 
Today's issue wasn't Pogba or Bruno or Cavani or Rashford. Our defense couldn't bring the ball up. Ole should have identified this and changed the tactics at half time. If you don't have the ball, there is nothing these guys can do.
 
sullydnl said:
Would it be possible in a sort of asymmetrical 4-2-3-1, with a fullback tucking in?

So on paper this:
GK
AWB - RCB - LCB - Shaw
DM - Pogba
RW - Bruno - Rashford
Cavani​

But in real terms in possession it would actually look more like a 1-2-3-3-2 shape. So a goalkeeper, then the two CBs splitting wider, a first three consisting of a more tucked in AWB + DM + Pogba/Shaw, a second three consisting of a RW + Bruno + Pogba/Shaw, and then Rashford pushing in to support Cavani. Or something along those lines.
Click to expand...
You'd still have Pogba, Bruno plus the pure attackers in your team who don't consider themselves as responsible for defending. Changing a position won't change that, in todays football, teams defend as teams. Good teams can compensate one maybe two players who are soo good that it makes sense others pull their weight. But right now, we aren't such a team. Pogba "strength-and-weaknesses" skillset makes him a difficult player to integrate in your team. To be honest, I fancied Ole to try to put him on the left to have his strength available for the team while mitigating his weaknesses. To have him playing in midfield, we would need more dominant CB-Team (right now kinda close), good fullbacks (almost there) but a very mobile and robust midfield partner (not available) plus effective support from at least 2-3 of the four attackers (not available these days).

Pogba is a great player but he is a nightmare to fit into a team. Particularly in our team the way it is composed right now.

bond19821982 said:
Today's issue wasn't Pogba or Bruno or Cavani or Rashford. Our defense couldn't bring the ball up. Ole should have identified this and changed the tactics at half time. If you don't have the ball, there is nothing these guys can do.
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I don't agree. The press worked so well because our players are placed pretty distant from each other to allow the quick turnover play we employ pretty successfully most of the time. The way Liverpool pressed, it made a difficult job if built-up play even harder. But that isn't defenders issue.
 
GlasgowCeltic said:
A diamonds the only way it could work surely, needs a DM though
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I don't like this suggestion. Ole might not be able to employ it, the same way Pep has made City look worse when he experiments with the 4231 or 3 at the back. Whenever we've played a diamond, we haven't been great.
 
sullydnl said:
Would it be possible in a sort of asymmetrical 4-2-3-1, with a fullback tucking in?

So on paper this:
GK
AWB - RCB - LCB - Shaw
DM - Pogba​
RW - Bruno - Rashford
Cavani​

But in real terms in possession it would actually look more like a 1-2-3-3-2 shape. So a goalkeeper, then the two CBs splitting wider, a first three consisting of a more tucked in AWB + DM + Pogba/Shaw, a second three consisting of a RW + Bruno + Pogba/Shaw, and then Rashford pushing in to support Cavani. Or something along those lines.
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In theory that sounds good and IMO we should have been doing that ever since given the strengths and weaknesses of our team. To me this:

Cavani

Rashford - Pogba - Bruno - Greenwood

Shaw - DM - AWB

LCB - RCB

GK
​
makes more sense than Shaw and especially AWB bombing forward, given the makeup of our team.

The only problem is it would require wide men who are not just strikers. If Rashford and Mason were able to hold and create width for Bruno and Pogba in the half spaces as well as supply a central striker consistently, then it would be a no brainer, but the first instinct of those two is to cut in and shoot which makes them better suited to a narrow front 3.
​
 
NZT-One said:
You'd still have Pogba, Bruno plus the pure attackers in your team who don't consider themselves as responsible for defending. Changing a position won't change that, in todays football, teams defend as teams. Good teams can compensate one maybe two players who are soo good that it makes sense others pull their weight. But right now, we aren't such a team. Pogba "strength-and-weaknesses" skillset makes him a difficult player to integrate in your team. To be honest, I fancied Ole to try to put him on the left to have his strength available for the team while mitigating his weaknesses. To have him playing in midfield, we would need more dominant CB-Team (right now kinda close), good fullbacks (almost there) but a very mobile and robust midfield partner (not available) plus effective support from at least 2-3 of the four attackers (not available these days).

Pogba is a great player but he is a nightmare to fit into a team. Particularly in our team the way it is composed right now.


I don't agree. The press worked so well because our players are placed pretty distant from each other to allow the quick turnover play we employ pretty successfully most of the time. The way Liverpool pressed, it made a difficult job if built-up play even harder. But that isn't defenders issue.
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I'm not sure the amount of attackers is that much of a problem

In real terms City have often shaped up like this in previous seasons (I hope the formatting comes out right):

GK
RCB -------------------LCB
Walker-----Rodri/Gundogan------Zinchenko
Bilva ---------- KDB ------ Dilva -------
-----------------------------------Aguero-------------Sterling
​
I don't think something like the below would be too much more unbalanced in terms of the number of attacking players v defenders:


GK
RCB -----------------LCB
AWB----------------Rice------------Shaw
Sancho ---------- Bruno ------ Pogba -------
-----------------------------------Cavani-------------Rashford​

It's just about whether you could coach them to function as a unit. Which admittedly is quite the issue, especially given Pogba's skillset.
 
sullydnl said:
Would it be possible in a sort of asymmetrical 4-2-3-1, with a fullback tucking in?

So on paper this:
GK
AWB - RCB - LCB - Shaw
DM - Pogba
RW - Bruno - Rashford
Cavani​

But in real terms in possession it would actually look more like a 1-2-3-3-2 shape. So a goalkeeper, then the two CBs splitting wider, a first three consisting of a more tucked in AWB + DM + Pogba/Shaw, a second three consisting of a RW + Bruno + Pogba/Shaw, and then Rashford pushing in to support Cavani. Or something along those lines.
Click to expand...

Sounds a bit like France at the WC 2018. I think that would be a good cup team, I don't think that wins you titles though
 
sullydnl said:
I'm not sure the amount of attackers is that much of a problem

In real terms City have often shaped up like this in previous seasons (I hope the formatting comes out right):

GK
RCB -------------------LCB
Walker-----Rodri/Gundogan------Zinchenko
Bilva ---------- KDB ------ Dilva -------
-----------------------------------Aguero-------------Sterling
​
I don't think something like the below would be too much more unbalanced in terms of the number of attacking players v defenders:


GK
RCB -----------------LCB
AWB----------------Rice------------Shaw
Sancho ---------- Bruno ------ Pogba -------
-----------------------------------Cavani-------------Rashford​

It's just about whether you could coach them to function as a unit. Which admittedly is quite the issue, especially given Pogba's skillset.
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And had a ropy defence in the process. Despite Fernandinho and Laporte being flat out better than our options.
KDB and Silva worked harder and were more focused defensively than pogba has ever been too. Bernardo Silva and Sterling worked their asses off too, that City team highlights more than anything how you cant carry a player who doesn't do the defensive work.
He's a good attacking player and on recent form deserved his place but its became obvious years ago that pogba is a costly luxury in midfield.
 
bond19821982 said:
Today's issue wasn't Pogba or Bruno or Cavani or Rashford. Our defense couldn't bring the ball up. Ole should have identified this and changed the tactics at half time. If you don't have the ball, there is nothing these guys can do.
Click to expand...

Him completely needlessly giving up a free-kick and then losing his man for their goal was an issue.
 
You're right, he isn't a left winger. Hasn't got the pace, wideplay or an attacking instruct as a lW. He is really a left (least attacking) of a three man midfield but our formation doesn't suit him so we try him out on the left. And tbf it has worked well so far. But I still think it needs to be seen as an option. Rahsford is better on the left and Sancho coming in will own the right. Pogba needs to rotate as required. He isn't nailed on first choice level imo but a terrific player to have.

Edit - also would like to add that Pogba often curls up in games where we are pressed and that has nothing to do with role/position but his slow decision making abilities.
 
bucky said:
Him completely needlessly giving up a free-kick and then losing his man for their goal was an issue.
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Yeh, there's no point denying that Pogba's brainfarts didn't feck us up the jacksie tonight. He's a bit of an enigma, as we all well know. Game changer, both positively and negatively. More often than not, he's fecking great.
 
He seems tired and slow tonight. Maybe the eid food making him slow...

I don't know, that is for sure wasn't the same Pogba. Lethargic and slow.
 
.
sullydnl said:
Would it be possible in a sort of asymmetrical 4-2-3-1, with a fullback tucking in?

So on paper this:
GK
AWB - RCB - LCB - Shaw
DM - Pogba
RW - Bruno - Rashford
Cavani​

But in real terms in possession it would actually look more like a 1-2-3-3-2 shape. So a goalkeeper, then the two CBs splitting wider, a first three consisting of a more tucked in AWB + DM + Pogba/Shaw, a second three consisting of a RW + Bruno + Pogba/Shaw, and then Rashford pushing in to support Cavani. Or something along those lines.
Click to expand...
No width. Shaw have to keep tucking in to make up numbers. Pogba and rahsford didn't stay out wide anyway. Leaving us congested in the centre. Would rathe Shaw stay out wide but then Pogba has too much central responsibility that he doesn't deal well

433(LAM)
4231(LM)

Are the most logical. But I think it's gotten to the point that should our sunne go according to plan, that Pogba is simply one of our good options and that's how it should be. He isn't the type of player you want your system to be built around and he's an excellent footballer to have.
 
We took our best attacker and shunted him wide right so Pogba can play on the left to accommodate a McFred partnership.

It's lunacy.
 
We have to go with a 4-3-3 and give Bruno a free role off the right. It's the only way we can put something out there that makes sense. This formation is toast, our midfielders can't pass the ball and the one that can, can't defend.

We don't have a single winger in the squad and yet we're trying to play a 4-2-3-1 which just sounds ludicrous.
 
RooneyLegend said:
We have to go with a 4-3-3 and give Bruno a free role off the right. It's the only way we can put something out there that makes sense. This formation is toast, our midfielders can't pass the ball and the one that can, can't defend.

We don't have a single winger in the squad and yet we're trying to play a 4-2-3-1 which just sounds ludicrous.
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Highly doubt Ole wants to abandon a double pivot midfield even though we should.
 
Pogba / Matic
Greenwood / Bruno / Rashford
Cavani

We shall hopefully play this front 5 for the Europa League Final.

I'm sorry, but McTominay and Fred are not good enough on the ball for this football club. McTominay is also clueless off the ball when we do not have possession. He never tracks runners.

Greenwood is in excellent form and Rashford plays much better on the left. Of course playing Pogba in midfield can be a risk, but at least he has genuine quality. Fred and McTominay are hopeless.
 
Eternitiy said:
Pogba / Matic
Greenwood / Bruno / Rashford
Cavani

We shall hopefully play this front 5 for the Europa League Final.

I'm sorry, but McTominay and Fred are not good enough on the ball for this football club. McTominay is also clueless off the ball when we do not have possession. He never tracks runners.

Greenwood is in excellent form and Rashford plays much better on the left. Of course playing Pogba in midfield can be a risk, but at least he has genuine quality. Fred and McTominay are hopeless.
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There's no way Ole isn't going with McFred for the final.
 
bond19821982 said:
Because Bruno was down.
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Definitely.
Why Bruno has to go down forever so many times and make his own teammates confused and stop playing by fouling on Liverpool player?

Bruno has to change this. Just can not put on blame Pogba on this.
 
Eddy_JukeZ said:
We took our best attacker and shunted him wide right so Pogba can play on the left to accommodate a McFred partnership.

It's lunacy.
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McFred are not the ones being accommodated in our lineup. Pogba is the one being accommodated because he is a defensive liability In a midfield 2.
 
Pogba is a defensive liability wherever you play him. The fact is he is less of a liability on the LW where he is required to do less defending is the reason he plays there.

He either plays there in the big games or doesn't play at all. Against park the bus type teams he can play in CM alongside a decent DM and we get away with it. But not in the big games.

Liverpool third goal was key last night, you can't really account for the three mistakes from Fred, Shaw and then Henderson that led to it, Liverpool went into full press then and our playing out from the back fell apart so much so that the front 4 had to come back to try and help out, the problem then was when we did get out we had no forward options.

He didn't have a particularly good game last night, but he certainly wasn't alone in that and the issue were far more in the defensive third than anywhere else.
 
Abraxas said:
How many United players have there been have that caused as much discussion as Pogba over his "favoured position"? At what point does a good footballer become one by virtue of consistent performances, reducing such concerns over position to meaningless chatter as he simply does the required aspects of a role week in week out? It feels as if regardless of where he is played he is always going to be debated.

If he plays deep you get criticism of his work rate, his defensive positioning, his risk taking in deep positions. You do get the benefit of his talent too, let's be clear.

If he plays in a free midfield role...well...he can't. Not in the current lineup.

If he plays in an attacking role somebody else has to be moved and it feels like a concession because overall he doesn't produce enough in the way of goals.

He is a conundrum. In this side with 2 deep players and Bruno he is very, very difficult to accomodate. It is not because of the manager, it is not because of the tactics, it is because of Pogba's weaknesses. He should be able to fit into a fairly standard setup without us having to jump through hoops but he has a peculiar set of qualities that mean we do have these issues and it is probably at the heart of why he has been so inconsistent. Yes, you can build a setup with the perfect blend of midfielders as he seemed to have in the glorious Juve days we are so often reminded of. But there is a guy called Bruno, there is our defence, it is not all about Paul Pogba.
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Spot on.

Hes probably the best player whos the hardest to fit into a line up
 
Pogba is not a winger.

Pogba also is not a central midfielder in a two (whether that is in a 4231 or as one of the deeper midfielders in a 433). He never has, never is, and never will be able to play that role to a consistent level. Doesn't matter which DM is in there, it could be Ndidi, Kante, Rice, Makelele, Keane...it simply won't work consistently as Pogba doesn't suit playing there.

His best position is as the most attacking midfielder in a 433. With Bruno being here that's simply not going to happen.

In theory playing him on the left (as a wide attacking midfielder, not a winger) might turn out to be the second best position for him. It's worked well for the last few games, but obviously didn't work well today. It's simply too small of a sample size to say for sure either way. Then we have to work out whether playing him on the left provides more to the team than Rashford does when he plays there. I do believe one of our front three needs to help the team out more with control and creativity rather than playing three players who are all purely focused on the goal, but deciding whether Pogba on the left with Rashford either moving to the right or dropping to the bench (should be the latter in current form) is the right way to go about it isn't an easy decision to make. Maybe somebody like a Grealish (although he also plays on the left) or Sancho would bring a better balance for that role than what Pogba does.
 
sullydnl said:
I'm not sure the amount of attackers is that much of a problem

In real terms City have often shaped up like this in previous seasons (I hope the formatting comes out right):

GK
RCB -------------------LCB
Walker-----Rodri/Gundogan------Zinchenko
Bilva ---------- KDB ------ Dilva -------
-----------------------------------Aguero-------------Sterling
​
I don't think something like the below would be too much more unbalanced in terms of the number of attacking players v defenders:


GK
RCB -----------------LCB
AWB----------------Rice------------Shaw
Sancho ---------- Bruno ------ Pogba -------
-----------------------------------Cavani-------------Rashford​

It's just about whether you could coach them to function as a unit. Which admittedly is quite the issue, especially given Pogba's skillset.
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There'd no width looking at this. Below is how we attacked post restart last season(change Sancho for Greenwood)
unnamed-3.png


Using that approach, I think we could do something like this


-------------------------Henderson-----------------------



-------Lindelof----------Rice----------------Maguire



------------------Awb

--------------------------------Pogba



Sancho--Bruno---Cavani---Rashford--Shaw
 
I think Pogba plays well from the left. My issue with him on the left is that we end up shoehorning Rashford on the right, and it upsets the entire balance of the team.

Get a top defensive midfielder, and a dominant CB to partner Maguire and we can drop Pogba into midfield, and Rashford on the left. Midfield is the biggest issue for me, every game. We can't control it. McTominay and Fred simply not good enough against quality opposition.
 
Eternitiy said:
Pogba / Matic
Greenwood / Bruno / Rashford
Cavani

We shall hopefully play this front 5 for the Europa League Final.

I'm sorry, but McTominay and Fred are not good enough on the ball for this football club. McTominay is also clueless off the ball when we do not have possession. He never tracks runners.

Greenwood is in excellent form and Rashford plays much better on the left. Of course playing Pogba in midfield can be a risk, but at least he has genuine quality. Fred and McTominay are hopeless.
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Pogba cant defend and Matic cant run - play these two against any quality and we will suffer. We will just be bombarded through midfield all game. Oh, and without Maguire it seems we cant defend either. Lindelof cannot be left exposed.

If you wanna concede and be on the backfoot all game - great idea
 
Ole plays Pogba on the left to add creative balance in the front and because he's a liability in the double pivot, Mason should be starting ahead of Rashford on the right.
 
Eddy_JukeZ said:
Rashford is better than Pogba on the left though.
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Not at the moment he isn't, his greediness needs sorting out, plus it's about balance, if we have Mason, Rashford and Cavani starting then Bruno is the only creator in the front 4 and we are easier to snuff out.
 
He's not a #10. He's not a LW. He's not a CM. And he's not LAM (at least not in a top league).

I think he's the sort of player who'd be a world class free-role maverick in the 1990s. But it's way more tricky to find him a proper position in a team in the 2020s.

Maybe if you built the entire team around him (which Jose did seem to try for a while tbf) it would work. But the back-and-forth in the thread shows how difficult it is to pin down what he actually does.

I think the bottom line is that he needs to change. Because we've spent 4 years trying and failing to change for him.
 
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