German Football 20/21

Stranger things have happened. Maybe Frankfurt winning could be a blessing? All of Wolfburg's opponents might still be fighting for something, while Frankfurt have Freiburg, Augsburg and Schalke who probably have nothing to play for.
I am not sure if the schedule is better for Frankfurt. They played great against top teams (since March they have beaten Bayern, Dortmund, Wolfsburg, drawn against Leipzig), but they have the occasional stupid loss in them against small teams. That doesn't happen to Wolfsburg, who just lack the edge against the best teams. So it could well be that in fact both are getting very similiar results.

And Dortmund won't will all they need to, I am sure of that.
 
I am not sure if the schedule is better for Frankfurt. They played great against top teams (since March they have beaten Bayern, Dortmund, Wolfsburg, drawn against Leipzig), but they have the occasional stupid loss in them against small teams. That doesn't happen to Wolfsburg, who just lack the edge against the best teams. So it could well be that in fact both are getting very similiar results.

And Dortmund won't will all they need to, I am sure of that.
Yeah fair enough! It's true all of that was just assuming Dortmund could go on a winning streak which is just unlikely to happen, but it could end up a close race if they win today and Wolfsburg loses to Bayern next.

But it wouldn't surprise me if they lose to Stuttgart now, and then it doesn't matter anymore anyway.
 
Dortmund are not a team that will go on a lengthy run this season, especially not with the cup competitions as a distraction. Wolfsburg winning was their last remaining hope for top 4. I wouldn't be surprised if they drop points again today either: Stuttgart are brave team and Dortmund have City in their legs and on their mind.

https://www.sportbuzzer.de/artikel/...ome-boateng-vertrag-ablosfrei-verein-wechsel/

The reputable Sportbuzzer reports that Dortmund are considering approaching Boateng :lol:
 
Dortmund are not a team that will go on a lengthy run this season, especially not with the cup competitions as a distraction. Wolfsburg winning was their last remaining hope for top 4. I wouldn't be surprised if they drop points again today either: Stuttgart are brave team and Dortmund have City in their legs and on their mind.
Would be typical for Dortmund this season to lose today. That would bring Stuttgart back in the fight for EL/ECL - and that is now Dortmund's position to lose. So they are not even safely qualified for any international cup next year. One would love to see them completely missing everything.
 
Would be typical for Dortmund this season to lose today. That would bring Stuttgart back in the fight for EL/ECL - and that is now Dortmund's position to lose. So they are not even safely qualified for any international cup next year. One would love to see them completely missing everything.

Stuttgart leads 1:0...
 
Having a 2m tall striker is unsporting squad building and should be forbidden.
 
Yes looks lost especially without Lewandowski. Not sure what excuse PSG can use if they don't reach the semi finals?
If it only was Lewandowski but there are so many starters injured or at a lot less than 100%. Still, losing the first leg is inexcusable and totally on them.
 
Not sure what excuse PSG can use if they don't reach the semi finals?

Humm. If they don't reach the semi finals, they would say:

1. Neymar ans Verratti never available at the same time for the big games
2. The referee of course
3. A second-class defensive unit
4. The coach
5. A kind of syndrome after la remontada and the last 16 against Manchester United

..... Bayern greater club...
 
Last edited:
If it only was Lewandowski but there are so many starters injured or at a lot less than 100%. Still, losing the first leg is inexcusable and totally on them.
Lewandowski the difference maker though. With the amount of chances created If he had played mid week it could easily have been 5-3 1st leg win instead of a 3-2 defeat.
 
I must say I liked our performance yesterday. Also I think that Sarr did really well, and a decent first start for Dantas.

Then, let's talk about Adi Hütter.
Might it be that he's the best of the bunch? Better than Nagelsmann? Or same level at least?
What he's doing is with Frankfurt in the league surely up there with Nagelsmanns Hoffenheim magic, let's not forget the astonishing EL run they had, and now he's in CL course after all those EL run players have been sold?

I'm going to make the claim that had he a less intolerable name, big clubs would be all over him more forcefully. That name though..
 
I must say I liked our performance yesterday. Also I think that Sarr did really well, and a decent first start for Dantas.

Then, let's talk about Adi Hütter.
Might it be that he's the best of the bunch? Better than Nagelsmann? Or same level at least?
What he's doing is with Frankfurt in the league surely up there with Nagelsmanns Hoffenheim magic, let's not forget the astonishing EL run they had, and now he's in CL course after all those EL run players have been sold?

I'm going to make the claim that had he a less intolerable name, big clubs would be all over him more forcefully. That name though..

I think Nagelsmann did it with worse material. The attack and midfield of Frankfurt this season is quality.

That being said, I'm also a big admirer. Currently there seems to be a great ampunt of very promising coaches on the market. Glasner, Hütter, Ten Haag, Tedesco, Werner, Bosz. There have been worse times to be without a coach.
 
I think Nagelsmann did it with worse material. The attack and midfield of Frankfurt this season is quality.

That being said, I'm also a big admirer. Currently there seems to be a great ampunt of very promising coaches on the market. Glasner, Hütter, Ten Haag, Tedesco, Werner, Bosz. There have been worse times to be without a coach.
Tedesco :lol:
Is he going to Leverkusen or why do you include him? :lol:

Difference to someone like Werner is that Hütter has been confirming his quality repeatedly and on a higher and higher level.
And Bosz is a proven failure as much as he is a proven good coach.
So honestly both Ten Haag and Hütter are the odd ones out on that list.
 
I must say I liked our performance yesterday. Also I think that Sarr did really well, and a decent first start for Dantas.

Then, let's talk about Adi Hütter.
Might it be that he's the best of the bunch? Better than Nagelsmann? Or same level at least?
What he's doing is with Frankfurt in the league surely up there with Nagelsmanns Hoffenheim magic, let's not forget the astonishing EL run they had, and now he's in CL course after all those EL run players have been sold?

I'm going to make the claim that had he a less intolerable name, big clubs would be all over him more forcefully. That name though..
I think they have a bit different qualities. Nagelsmann is getting great results with a good squad, Hütter is getting similar results with a squad of good and great players, who basically failed elsewhere (Kostic, Jovic, Silva, Durm, Rode are the most prominent ones I can think of). In the end both coaches perform on a similar level, but I think Nagelsmann is better at developing and evolving a team, while Hütter seems to be better with difficult characters (who Leipzip generally don't have in their squad - Frankfurts management did not fear to sign those, and Hütter seems great at getting the best out of them). On the other hand Frankfurt did win the DFB Pokal with Kovac as a coach and a comparable squad to Hütters now - Hütter surely is the right man in the right place for them, but much of this is the work of Bobic who signed all these players and the coach.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Cheimoon
Hütter definitely impressed me and there seem to be more substance to the way his Frankfurt side plays than compared to Kovac's success. I could see him take over Leipzig this summer. But other than that the top of the table is a bit weird from his perspective, like Gladbach or Leverkusen would usually be considered a step up from Frankfurt, but he'd most likely be giving up CL football next season and neither Gladbach nor Leverkusen (depending on Bayer's marketing budget of course) are necessarily in a position where top 4 next season would be a particularly safe bet either. Yet on the other hand both of them and Dortmund will sign a coach for next season, so if he doesn't make the move this summer it could be blocked for another two or three years. I still rate Nagelsmann considerably higher though. It's amazing how consistently his team performs while having a gaping whole upfront, he's also the coach who seems to have steered his team the best through the tightened schedule, despite not getting a real summer break.

Regarding that list:

I think ten Hag and Hütter are sort of on a similar tier at the moment. Hütter's risk factor is that he hasn't coached a top club and in the CL, ten Hag's risk factor is that he's been coaching a well-oiled machine like Ajax.
Glasner and Werner are promising coaches, the former to me has to prove that he can play good attacking football and that this wasn't just a case of having the fittest team and no EL/CL commitments in the Corona season. The latter needs like one or two jobs in the first division, before he's a serious candidate for top jobs.
Bosz has had two jobs at German top clubs and both ended very badly. I don't think that means he isn't a good coach, but at this point I doubt another top club will touch him. If he wants to work in Bundesliga, he has to make the step back to an ambitious midtable team that wants to be more than a pressing side.

Mentioning Domenico "the [pass%] numbers don't show what we set out to do. It is obvious that the pass success rate goes down when we play for the second ball and intentionally pass to the opposition" Tedesco has got to be a joke.
 
Last edited:
Tedesco :lol:
Is he going to Leverkusen or why do you include him? :lol:

Difference to someone like Werner is that Hütter has been confirming his quality repeatedly and on a higher and higher level.
And Bosz is a proven failure as much as he is a proven good coach.
So honestly both Ten Haag and Hütter are the odd ones out on that list.

Tedesco is apparently doing very well in Russia. And no, he's not going to Leverkusen.

Of course they're not proven, that's the very definition of 'promising' :wenger:
 
Tedesco is apparently doing very well in Russia. And no, he's not going to Leverkusen.
Is he the Kevin Kuranyi of German managers?

Of course they're not proven, that's the very definition of 'promising' :wenger:
Hütter is proven though. How much more proven than Hütter can you get, just below CL level?

And noone commenting about the name conundrum?
 
Last edited:


"Who is more important for Bayern?"

No respect for Brazzo's work.



And noone commenting about the name conundrum?

I don't see what his name has to do with anything. Everyone calls him "Adi" anyway. It's much more likely that he doesn't create a huge hype, because he's Austrian and only joined the German system 2.5 years ago, he's "only" coaching Frankfurt, he's over 50, so not someone who is sold as a revolutionary, his football is "good", but it's not so radical tactically that the media would do features on it and after that EL semi he finished 7th in the league, then 9th and for half of the current season things were looking like a midtable finish as well.


Schalke take the lead :eek: :eek: :eek: will this historic humiliation cause Herrlich to finally be sacked?
 
I don't see what his name has to do with anything. Everyone calls him "Adi" anyway. It's much more likely that he doesn't create a huge hype, because he's Austrian and only joined the German system 2.5 years ago, he's "only" coaching Frankfurt, he's over 50, so not someone who is sold as a revolutionary, his football is "good", but it's not so radical tactically that the media would do features on it and after that EL semi he finished 7th in the league, then 9th and for half of the current season things were looking like a midtable finish as well.

I'd say that's just within RedCafe's requirements of making him the hipster choice and definitely overrated once he loses his first game in the Champions League.
 
I find the Hütter / Nagelsmann comparisons a bit far-fetched.

Sure Frankfurt is having an amazing season but less than a year ago they were in 14th place after matchday 28, a mere 2 points away from being relegated.
Prior to this season Hütter was doing a decent job but nothing more. Frankfurt's Bundesliga results were okay without being spectacular and even their much-heralded cup results were inconsistent. That legendary Europa League run was followed by a rather unimpressive early loss to Basel in 19/20 and their DFB-Pokal results were one good year (semi-final loss to Bayern) and two early exits including an embarassing first-round loss to Ulm.

Nagelsmann took over a team destined to be relegated, miraculously saved them and then proceeded to land them a top 4 finish two years in a row. He's now coached for 5 and a half Bundesliga seasons and the only year that wasn't excellent was his last Hoffenheim season.
 
I find the Hütter / Nagelsmann comparisons a bit far-fetched.

Sure Frankfurt is having an amazing season but less than a year ago they were in 14th place after matchday 28, a mere 2 points away from being relegated.
Prior to this season Hütter was doing a decent job but nothing more. Frankfurt's Bundesliga results were okay without being spectacular and even their much-heralded cup results were inconsistent. That legendary Europa League run was followed by a rather unimpressive early loss to Basel in 19/20 and their DFB-Pokal results were one good year (semi-final loss to Bayern) and two early exits including an embarassing first-round loss to Ulm.

Nagelsmann took over a team destined to be relegated, miraculously saved them and then proceeded to land them a top 4 finish two years in a row. He's now coached for 5 and a half Bundesliga seasons and the only year that wasn't excellent was his last Hoffenheim season.

If you look at Frankfurt's xG over the last three seasons, it evens out more than just a little bit though. In fact, 2018/19 and 2019/20 are almost identical (both offensively and defensively) despite losing his entire strike force after the first season. This season has been Frankfurt's best by that metric, still overachieving their points tally. Definitely more than solid what he's done at Frankfurt but whether he is qualified for much bigger jobs, I doubt.

Comparing him to Nagelsmann is indeed unnecessary for a variety of reasons, not least because all of these these comparisons are getting tiresome to be honest.
 
I'm surprised at how under the radar Oliver Glasner has gone. After doing so well at LASK Linz, he's kept that going with Wolfsburg and made them into a consistently good top-6 team with a squad that lacks in high-quality players. His 4-4-2 setup is probably the best in football at the moment (at worst, alongside both Marcelino and Marsch). He's maximised the talent of all of his players, and he has them committed to a highly energetic, proactive pressing game. I'd be surprised if he doesn't end up at a top club within the next 5 years.
 
I'm surprised at how under the radar Oliver Glasner has gone. After doing so well at LASK Linz, he's kept that going with Wolfsburg and made them into a consistently good top-6 team with a squad that lacks in high-quality players. His 4-4-2 setup is probably the best in football at the moment (at worst, alongside both Marcelino and Marsch). He's maximised the talent of all of his players, and he has them committed to a highly energetic, proactive pressing game. I'd be surprised if he doesn't end up at a top club within the next 5 years.

I'm reserving my judgement on him. I find Wolfsburg fairly uninspiring in attack. This season they profit from being able to press 24/7, because they don't play in Europe, while teams like Dortmund, Gladbach and Leverkusen got eaten up by their tight schedule and internal issues. We will see what happens when they have to ratio their energy and get treated like a top team.
 
I'm reserving my judgement on him. I find Wolfsburg fairly uninspiring in attack. This season they profit from being able to press 24/7, because they don't play in Europe, while teams like Dortmund, Gladbach and Leverkusen got eaten up by their tight schedule and internal issues. We will see what happens when they have to ratio their energy and get treated like a top team.
To be fair to them, they don't really have quality attacking players. Their strikers are all target men, their attacking players are limited on the ball but very athletic and disciplined, and their most creative player in Brekalo is inconsistent. Their best players are in the midfield and defence. I want to see how this team performs if they get someone like Erik Thommy or one of the good attacking players from Stuttgart (off the top of my head).
 
A couple of managerial stories:


I know that we were talking about how well Hütter's done, but I wasn't expecting this to come out. Still, he's probably the best available head coach for Mönchengladbach.



I'm surprised that it took this long for Gisdol to be sacked.
 


I'm surprised that it took this long for Gisdol to be sacked.


It's Horst Heldt. He already laid Stuttgart and Schalke to waste and got Hannover relegated. It's what he does: hire some coach who has no idea what to do with the ball, ignore all the warning signs and absolutely dire football for as long as results remotely allow it. Then find yourself in a hopeless situation when reality catches up with you. And always sign whatever client of ROGON is available on the market, of course.


Regarding Hütter it's worth noting that Kicker report the move as imminent, but not necessarily finalized. I wondern how Gladbach's fans feel about this, given their anger about Rose ;).


To be fair to them, they don't really have quality attacking players. Their strikers are all target men, their attacking players are limited on the ball but very athletic and disciplined, and their most creative player in Brekalo is inconsistent. Their best players are in the midfield and defence. I want to see how this team performs if they get someone like Erik Thommy or one of the good attacking players from Stuttgart (off the top of my head).

That is of course true, but sustaining a balance with proper attacking football is perhaps the hardest part of coaching right now, so I wouldn't take it for granted that he will automatically deliver with better players.
 
It's Horst Heldt. He already laid Stuttgart and Schalke to waste and got Hannover relegated. It's what he does: hire some coach who has no idea what to do with the ball, ignore all the warning signs and absolutely dire football for as long as results remotely allow it. Then find yourself in a hopeless situation when reality catches up with you. And always sign whatever client of ROGON is available on the market, of course.
That explains everything. I had no idea that Horst Heldt was leading the way at Köln.

That is of course true, but sustaining a balance with proper attacking football is perhaps the hardest part of coaching right now, so I wouldn't take it for granted that he will automatically deliver with better players.
That's true, but with the players at this disposal, Gisdol's football has been quite proactive (some would say surprisingly so). This season, Wolfsburg have scored more goals than they did last season, and so far, they've scored more than Leverkusen and Mönchengladbach despite not having as talented a set of attacking players.
 
I find the Hütter / Nagelsmann comparisons a bit far-fetched.
Comparing him to Nagelsmann is indeed unnecessary for a variety of reasons, not least because all of these these comparisons are getting tiresome to be honest.
Fair enough. I brought this up and worded it brutishly à la "who is better, a or b" which is admittedly obnoxious. I also wasn't aware that news about his future and a potential move to Gladbach were that imminent.
It was more to point out that, while Nagelsmann's name is in everyone's mouth, Hütter did fly much more under the radar, comparatively, despite delivering astoundingly successful work at Frankfurt, in continuation of the astoundingly successful work he did at Young Boys.
Nagelsmann, just to use a closeby example, has a 40+ page thread on this forum, and another couple with his name in it; Hütter has none. Even Rose's work attracted much more attention (despite arguably not being anywhere near as impressive).
This is not to take anything away from Nagelsmann's outrageously good work, which deserves the attention and appreciation it is getting. But by all metric, Hütter should be regarded a bright star in the managerial sky as much as others are.

Hütter to Gladbach; seeing that he's about to lead the Eintracht into CL, while Gladbach quite likely will reach ECL if at all, it doesn't seem like much of a step up, and a slightly underwhelming move for him. I wonder whether summer couldn't bring bigger opportunities if he's intent on leaving. I also wonder whether BVB chose the best option..
It's also a bit scary for Frankfurt. They'll be playing CL, without the proper budget, and with all of the sporting executive, DoF, and manager leaving. It's almost like they've reached the highest point in decades yet immediately are finding themselves staring at an abyss.
 
Last edited:
Nagelsmann is like the Mozart of coaching. He's going at a steep trajectory mocking age records in the process. Until that momentum ends and he finally experiences failure there is no comparison to him. And it's only natural that he gets a vastly bigger spotlight than someone like Hütter, who looks promising, but relatively ordinary in comparison.

I'm not in a position to judge Hütter's previous work, but I think it's generous to call his work in Frankfurt astounding. His EL semi definitely was (which by the way "not nearly as impressive" Rose also pulled off with Salzburg, with this year's CL group stage on top), but aside from that? Finishing 7th or 9th with Frankfurt in the league isn't astounding, one is a decent finish the other slightly below par even. Most likely finishing top four this season is indeed impressive, but a little less so if you consider the context of Dortmund, Leverkusen and Gladbach falling apart, while Frankfurt put all their energy into one competition.
 
It's also a bit scary for Frankfurt. They'll be playing CL, without the proper budget, and with all of the sporting executive, DoF, and manager leaving. It's almost like they've reached the highest point in decades yet immediately are finding themselves staring at an abyss.
Losing Hütter really would be a blow for them. But I don't think they are staring at an abyss. They are basically done with the squad planning for next season, will not lose any core players (except Jovic if you count him as such) but bring in some talent, and if they really qualify for CL they will have some options in the summer to act - and they are promoting their chief scout / squad planner Ben Manga, so that he basically can then sign the players himself instead of just suggesting them. There are no signs or rumours of their squad breaking apart so far, and even if some players want to move on, Frankfurt are in a strong position and not forced to do anything stupid just because they need money. At least that gives them time to sort out the higher management levels, but having to find a new coach who fits the more or less assembled squad could be a bit of a problem. Generally there is likely a lot of changing coaches incoming in the Bundesliga, all those transfers might be more interesting in the summer than which players are moving.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Cheimoon
Nagelsmann is like the Mozart of coaching. He's going at a steep trajectory mocking age records in the process. Until that momentum ends and he finally experiences failure there is no comparison to him. And it's only natural that he gets a vastly bigger spotlight than someone like Hütter, who looks promising, but relatively ordinary in comparison.

I'm not in a position to judge Hütter's previous work, but I think it's generous to call his work in Frankfurt astounding. His EL semi definitely was (which by the way "not nearly as impressive" Rose also pulled off with Salzburg, with this year's CL group stage on top), but aside from that? Finishing 7th or 9th with Frankfurt in the league isn't astounding, one is a decent finish the other slightly below par even. Most likely finishing top four this season is indeed impressive, but a little less so if you consider the context of Dortmund, Leverkusen and Gladbach falling apart, while Frankfurt put all their energy into one competition.

This. Things didn't look too bright for Frankfurt last season and IMO they have a few gems in their squad, especially in attack. Gladbach on the other hand seems to me like a accumulation of utility players. I struggle to identify a single one who could be destined for greatness. Most of them seem to have found their level at a club that plays CL every now and then. I believe Rose has had Gladbach punching higher above their weight than Hütter has had Frankfurt.

Nothing against Hütter though, I'd take him at Leverkusen, too. But I don't really see a basis for the Nagelsmann comparisons.
 
Losing Hütter really would be a blow for them. But I don't think they are staring at an abyss. They are basically done with the squad planning for next season, will not lose any core players (except Jovic if you count him as such) but bring in some talent, and if they really qualify for CL they will have some options in the summer to act - and they are promoting their chief scout / squad planner Ben Manga, so that he basically can then sign the players himself instead of just suggesting them. There are no signs or rumours of their squad breaking apart so far, and even if some players want to move on, Frankfurt are in a strong position and not forced to do anything stupid just because they need money. At least that gives them time to sort out the higher management levels, but having to find a new coach who fits the more or less assembled squad could be a bit of a problem. Generally there is likely a lot of changing coaches incoming in the Bundesliga, all those transfers might be more interesting in the summer than which players are moving.

What are you basing this on? I'd wager that Andre Silva is pretty desperate to translate his current terrific form into a fat contract at a big(ger) club. Kostic or Hinteregger, being 28 years old, will have to force things this summer as well, if they ever want to make the next step.
 
This. Things didn't look too bright for Frankfurt last season and IMO they have a few gems in their squad, especially in attack. Gladbach on the other hand seems to me like a accumulation of utility players. I struggle to identify a single one who could be destined for greatness. Most of them seem to have found their level at a club that plays CL every now and then. I believe Rose has had Gladbach punching higher above their weight than Hütter has had Frankfurt.

Nothing against Hütter though, I'd take him at Leverkusen, too. But I don't really see a basis for the Nagelsmann comparisons.
They sold all of Jovic, Rebic, and Haller at once so :lol:
Preventing a collapse of results, and performing solidly, if there's so much centrifugal force in the squad is, in my opinion, astounding work.

Btw, the 'punching higher above weight' bit is such monumental nonsense :lol:
Frankfurt are 4th, Gladbach are 8th.
So then, by your logic, after Hütter has left Frankfurt for Gladbach, and Rose has left Gladbach, should we expect Frankfurt to stay up there or even improve, while Gladbach will finish worse under Hütter? Bizarre stuff.
 
Last edited:
I don't understand the (rumoured) move for Hütter to Gladbach. As has been pointed out, Gladbach may not have any European football next year while Frankfurt are likely getting into the CL, and it also seems to be argued that Frankfurt have the better squad. I suppose Gladbach might be the bigger club historically, but what would Hütter be gaining in the here and now? Do Gladbach have a bigger budget?
 
I don't understand the (rumoured) move for Hütter to Gladbach. As has been pointed out, Gladbach may not have any European football next year while Frankfurt are likely getting into the CL, and it also seems to be argued that Frankfurt have the better squad. I suppose Gladbach might be the bigger club historically, but what would Hütter be gaining in the here and now? Do Gladbach have a bigger budget?
The claim that Frankfurt have a better squad than Gladbach is more than debatable. It's infused in hindsight by how the teams have performed. Noone, not even the chief proponent of the theory @Zehner, would have claimed that ahead of the season.