Who still has faith in The Philosophy? / LVG Supporters' Thread

Those were players that LvG chose to get rid of, players who had won the league title in a canter under Fergie. He chose to get rid of those players because he decided he could not work with them for whatever reason. Now it looks like he cannot get performances from players that he kept or brought.

None of them have been any sort of regret except maybe Hernandez who still would have been nothing but a stop gap. He is a manager 10 years ahead of his time. the players we have now have more chance of being influential in 3 years never mind 10. So the only reason any of those players would have been good is for winning things now;

if they could keep up with the progression of youth.

That is never going to happen.
 
Good post. I like LVG and defended him til about 3 weeks ago when I think he had run out of ideas.

His philosophy may not have worked but one legacy he will surely leave behind is our team are far better at retaining the ball than we were under SAF. I think he has improved the technical aspects of all his players and any new incoming manager will benefit from that.

Great post, he will leave a leaner and more technical squad.
 
Nani, RVP, Hernandez, Rafael, Rio, Vidic, Lindegaard, kagawa, fletcher, giggs off the top of my mind are not here anymore. Whether that is all down to LVG or not is meaningless when they have been replaced with the likes of Shaw, Martial, Memphis, Lingard, CBJ, Mcnair, Blackett, Rojo, pereira.

Really?. How many games have they played this season?.

You keep making this argument that he gives young players a chance, yet conveniently ignore the fact that he sold welbeck over Falcao and has not even utilized Januzaj and Wilson. Why were they not given the chance?. Or could it be that the only reason these youngsters are playing is because there are too many injuries in the squad?. How many games did Lingard play last year?. How many youth players were given chance last year?. I can only think of Mcnair, Blackett and Wilson to an extent.
 
Really. So despite their current high levels and drastic improvement since sacking Van gaal, are you suggesting that we would surpass them if we KEEP Van Gaal? Based on what? What mistakes have they made in sacking Van Gaal? each club has made atleast 2 Champions League finals and won multiple league titles since getting rid. And the start up process as Barcelona solely involves handing out a few debuts. That's not exactly a start up process now is it? Many managers have given debuts to top players. Its just what happens when you manage a club with a strong academy. Factor in the players that he didn't give their debuts to such as Messi, Busquets, etc then I don't see how HE initiated their success. Puyol, Xavi, Valdez, Iniesta I know he handed debuts too, but how many games did they play under him and how much did he develop them? my guess very little. You are over exaggerating his achievements.

Absolutely no mistake. Sorry it was a bad word to use. We could use what seems to be the only logical reason that Bayern and Barcelona are consistent teams and every other team seem to fluctuate 3-4 years. These 2 have had no troubles in maintaining the same level of football ( also football that was better than they had previously spouted) for nearly 10 years now.

As i said, for every player that gives credit to the guardiola & Heyckenes for their success; why do they insist on giving any to Van Gaal? Who achieved peanuts compared to the previous listed managers.

Answer me that please.
 
Really?. How many games have they played this season?.

You keep making this argument that he gives young players a chance, yet conveniently ignore the fact that he sold welbeck over Falcao and has not even utilized Januzaj and Wilson. Why were they not given the chance?. Or could it be that the only reason these youngsters are playing is because there are too many injuries in the squad?. How many games did Lingard play last year?. How many youth players were given chance last year?. I can only think of Mcnair, Blackett and Wilson to an extent.

you do realize you have just picked a couple out?
anyway the answer to your question is

Because he does not give chances unless
a) we need it due to injuries
b) they deserve it
c) a squad is exactly that - full of players that are useful

Wilson IMO was sent on loan because what he needs is game time- something he would get in parts due to Rooney and martial. we could use him tbf.

He tried to use pereira in other positions first, his main position has him rivaling Rooney, Mata, Januzaj, Even Martial. He is never a CM just a CAM.

Januzaj, he had pleanty of games :/ it was his own decision to go to dortmund and come back less educated.

Welbeck is a good striker but again never was a predatory striker. Martial will score goals Welbeck could only dream of.

Falcao & Di maria were signings made to put us back in to the CL. It worked. Then LVG said that THIS year it would be the start of his team; so lets not act like he was building foundations from day 1 either. He has so far failed this season; but I have seen fans complain when we are not title contenders anymore, when we are not In the CL anymore and now when we are struggling for the top 4. It has been a horrible season but really the complaints over not winning the title and not being in the CL with such an uneducated team really shouldnt have put unnecessary pressure on him. Not getting to the CL should.
 
you do realize you have just picked a couple out?
anyway the answer to your question is

Because he does not give chances unless
a) we need it due to injuries
b) they deserve it
c) a squad is exactly that - full of players that are useful

Wilson IMO was sent on loan because what he needs is game time- something he would get in parts due to Rooney and martial. we could use him tbf.

He tried to use pereira in other positions first, his main position has him rivaling Rooney, Mata, Januzaj, Even Martial. He is never a CM just a CAM.

Januzaj, he had pleanty of games :/ it was his own decision to go to dortmund and come back less educated.

Welbeck is a good striker but again never was a predatory striker. Martial will score goals Welbeck could only dream of.

Falcao & Di maria were signings made to put us back in to the CL. It worked. Then LVG said that THIS year it would be the start of his team; so lets not act like he was building foundations from day 1 either. He has so far failed this season; but I have seen fans complain when we are not title contenders anymore, when we are not In the CL anymore and now when we are struggling for the top 4. It has been a horrible season but really the complaints over not winning the title and not being in the CL with such an uneducated team really shouldnt have put unnecessary pressure on him. Not getting to the CL should.

Under LVG??..Can you pull some stats on that?. I am genuienly interested to see if did play that much under LVG.

You keep using Martial as an excuse for all the strikers we have sold. Was Martial a replacement for RVP or Falcao or Welbeck. Make your mind up.

Really?. So he can be excused for getting out of possibly the easiest group stage?. What about the league cup defeats to minnows.

Its funny you say that THIS year is HIS team and yet they have been performing worse than Moyes'.
 
Absolutely no mistake. Sorry it was a bad word to use. We could use what seems to be the only logical reason that Bayern and Barcelona are consistent teams and every other team seem to fluctuate 3-4 years. These 2 have had no troubles in maintaining the same level of football ( also football that was better than they had previously spouted) for nearly 10 years now.

As i said, for every player that gives credit to the guardiola & Heyckenes for their success; why do they insist on giving any to Van Gaal? Who achieved peanuts compared to the previous listed managers.

Answer me that please.
Because as a youth team player, unsure as to whether you are going to even make it at your club or break into the first team, the manager who hands you your 1st team debut, you will forever be indebted to them. Many of these players supported their clubs and as you can imagine, the moment they ran onto the pitch, be it the Camp Nou or Alliance Arena in front of thousands of fans, to play with some of their idols; was probably the best moment of their young playing careers. Doesn't mean they wouldn't have made it regardless, it just means he threw them in before anyone else. that is the no.1 thing for a academy player. Believing that they are gonna have a career at their club. And when they start playing for the first team, it all seems real and worth it all.

There are videos of Zidane honouring Jean Varrud who gave him his debut at Cannes. All players should honour the guy who gives them their debut and many do. A lot of the time debuts are given just as a run out to see what the player can do, or injuries as in our case, but for the player it is massive to them. Souness gave debuts to Steve Mcmanaman, and Fowler, Dalgliesh debuted Jamie Rednapp and Roy Evans debuted Gerrard, Michael Owen and Carragher. I wouldn't say any of those managers started the process for Liverpool's treble, future title challenge or champions league win, they just handed young prospects their debuts which tends to happen when you have a decent academy.
 
Under LVG??..Can you pull some stats on that?. I am genuienly interested to see if did play that much under LVG.

You keep using Martial as an excuse for all the strikers we have sold. Was Martial a replacement for RVP or Falcao or Welbeck. Make your mind up.

Really?. So he can be excused for getting out of possibly the easiest group stage?. What about the league cup defeats to minnows.

Its funny you say that THIS year is HIS team and yet they have been performing worse than Moyes'.

because the team is younger.
 
Because as a youth team player, unsure as to whether you are going to even make it at your club or break into the first team, the manager who hands you your 1st team debut, you will forever be indebted to them. Many of these players supported their clubs and as you can imagine, the moment they ran onto the pitch, be it the Camp Nou or Alliance Arena in front of thousands of fans, to play with some of their idols; was probably the best moment of their young playing careers. Doesn't mean they wouldn't have made it regardless, it just means he threw them in before anyone else. that is the no.1 thing for a academy player. Believing that they are gonna have a career at their club. And when they start playing for the first team, it all seems real and worth it all.

There are videos of Zidane honouring Jean Varrud who gave him his debut at Cannes. All players should honour the guy who gives them their debut and many do. A lot of the time debuts are given just as a run out to see what the player can do, or injuries as in our case, but for the player it is massive to them. Souness gave debuts to Steve Mcmanaman, and Fowler, Dalgliesh debuted Jamie Rednapp and Roy Evans debuted Gerrard, Michael Owen and Carragher. I wouldn't say any of those managers started the process for Liverpool's treble, future title challenge or champions league win, they just handed young prospects their debuts which tends to happen when you have a decent academy.

but then why do you have xavi say LVG was ahead of his time and didnt get the honours he deserved at barcelona?
 
Think it was locked for what can only be described as 'redcafe politics'..
Can't have certain posters who have a perception of possessing great football knowledge basically talking nonsense.
It's a pity because it's a thread that left open the opportunity to reflect and analyse, now and at the end of the season.
What's quite alarming is the amount of people who agreed with it.

Can we please get the "unpopular opinions thread" open too?

What is the point of giving unpopular opinions and bearing the wrath angry and rabid protectors of the Woorward realm, the VGities, if we can't brag about them now? ;)
 
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That would be a good argument against the opinion that everything is all right, which is not mine.


And that's nonsense. Of course you have to learn how to play the possession game before you can play it well. This progress has not been made quick, it has not been linear, and it has not been stable in the sense that once it was made, it stayed. The manager is responsible so there's plenty to criticise him, you don't need this nonsense to do that.

You say nonsense alot and yet fail to make a valid argument.

Progress? What progress? There has been no progress. Have you seen us play at all? What the heck are you on about? You're essentially making my point in saying that his methods haven't taken and that we have made no progress.

We don't need two fecking seasons to learn to play a possession game.
 
Talking purely about the philosophy, is there any evidence of such a style of football ever working in England? I've never seen a team ever being successful playing that way.
In the Premier league at the top level, I don't think any manager has. But you have to factor in that SAF had a huge monopoly on the trophies, 13 of the last 21. Of those 8 that weren't won I don't remember a team playing out and out possession football. Which says a lot, if you want to read the book on how to win the PL you need only head up the corridor toward the boardroom and see the plaques and photo's that adorn the walls of the inner cloister of AON. I still have no idea why you would purposely set out to play the complete opposite of the football that has won so many league titles. It honestly made no sense to me at the start of last season and I am still sat here 20 months later scratching my head over it.

One thing I do want to say though, without wading into the micro-debate that is going on about the legitimacy of LVG's youth policy, surely people have to understand that at this stage it is still up in the air whether he has implemented anything beneficial with regards to youth. Every direction you turn there is something polar opposite that he has done that leaves you wondering why (if he is making positive decisions regarding the youth), for every place where he has a promoted a youngster or broken open the squad so that they can poke through, there is one or two other players where you are wondering why the hell they aren't getting game time. Peiriera especially, he has a strange quibble with not playing Herrera and he basically has to play Herrera before Pereira because it is Herrera that needs the game time, rather than playing Peirera. That especially doesn't make sense.

Look, the way he totally decimated the squad so that the youth player can fill the gaps is noble and will help, but it was a seriously ballsy move while the team is basically still trying to come to grips with the style of football. You could almost say it was suicide cutting that many senior players out of the squad. Having to rely on green youngsters who clearly aren't ready yet has to go down as a black mark. It was incredibly stupid to even entertain such an idea in my opinion.
 
None of them have been any sort of regret except maybe Hernandez who still would have been nothing but a stop gap. He is a manager 10 years ahead of his time. the players we have now have more chance of being influential in 3 years never mind 10. So the only reason any of those players would have been good is for winning things now;

if they could keep up with the progression of youth.

That is never going to happen.

10 years ahead of his time? That's laughable he hasn't done enough to help the club for next season let alone the next 3 years or 10 years. The success at barca has virtually nothing to do with LVG, la Masia is the biggest reason for their success, he gave players debuts but he didn't shape their careers. At Bayern he was slightly more influential but his role in their recent success was pretty minor and by the end of his time and both clubs he was doing a really poor job.

He has tried to implement obsession football and tried to use different formations but he can't get it to work, he wasn't expected to have us dominating the league or winning the champions league but neither was he expected to have us as close to 11th as we are to 4th. Essentially he has been a failure and he is more of a hindrance at this point.

He won't leave good foundations, he is playing youngsters because he has no choice not because they are good enough, he won't leave behind a team in the champions league and how many of his signings will be in the next manager's starting eleven?. 3-4 maybe so it's pretty clear he won't have done a great deal to help us going forward, signing martial is best thing he has done and how much credit he gets for identifying and pushing that transfer through could probably be debated as well.
 
but then why do you have xavi say LVG was ahead of his time and didnt get the honours he deserved at barcelona?

Da Vinci was ahead of his time.... But he too is now a dinosaur. Times change.

Barcelona made Arsenal look worse last nite than we made Shrewsbury look on Monday. Oh how times have changed. A mediocre result now buys Van Fraud more time again, what a joke.
 
but then why do you have xavi say LVG was ahead of his time and didnt get the honours he deserved at barcelona?
You need to be careful when relying solely on player quotes. For your first question: When Van Gaal arrived in 1997 or thereabouts, Xavi is quoted as saying he first thought who is this guy and what is he on about, especially when he criticised him one day then praised him the next. Then weeks later Xavi admitted that Van Gaal was a perfectionist and was right about many things, at that point in time (1997). He wasn't referring to 2002 when he failed completely. Van Gaal admitted he failed them and NO he did not set up Barcelona's future success in that season.
For your second question; bear in mind Barcelona won 2 league titles but Van Gaal never won over the media or fans so it no doubt has a lot to do with that. Your team wins the league twice but the manager hasn't been fully accepted, sounds to me like "he didn't get the credit he deserved."
 
A poor version of it with a badly managed Ajax with mediocre players managed to beat Ferguson's United at OT, which is located in England, with it only a few years ago.

AZ was one win away from the title with it, that LvG used a different style because he had different players in the year he actually won it didn't make the difference. Bayern was one win away from the treble with it, the Netherlands were one player away of taking it to the WC after a very good qualifying with it.

Yes OT is located in England. They sneaked a win but were already getting knocked out on aggregate by that stage. That's not really important anyway since you obviously must know I was looking for more evidence than one game.

Thinking it might have worked or came close to working in some other country is hardly a glowing assessment. It certainly hasn't worked for United and it's been miserable to watch. Maybe under the ideal group of players in some perfect world it might work but what's the point in dreaming about that when there are so many other philosophies that actually have been proven to work. The philosophy has been dour and unpleasant without the results to redeem it. Ultimately it's been a waste of two seasons for us.
 
A good philosophy doesn't bore you for the whole season, struggles to get top 4 and make clueless subs during the match.

I don't believe there ever was a philosophy, he just makes it up as he goes along, he's a fecking idiot!
 
The pettiness.. People are not embarrass to support LVG and what he believes is achievable, it's just embarrassing watching fans turn on each other because our beliefs are different.
LVG will move on but if this new culture of us tearing into the players and club doesn't stop, the desired success will not come our way. This toxic environment has a worse effect on players than tactics.
I am not claiming to better a better fan..all some of us want is to enjoy football for the reality it is and not the perceived fantasy some would expect it to be. For all the wastage and poor management of his over the last 20 months, I am struggling to think of one dominant team in 40+yrs to have been put together from scratch in 2 yrs.
But hey..what do us VanGaalites know about football and the best interest of our club.
 
The pettiness.. People are not embarrass to support LVG and what he believes is achievable, it's just embarrassing watching fans turn on each other because our beliefs are different.
LVG will move on but if this new culture of us tearing into the players and club doesn't stop, the desired success will not come our way. This toxic environment has a worse effect on players than tactics.
I am not claiming to better a better fan..all some of us want is to enjoy football for the reality it is and not the perceived fantasy some would expect it to be. For all the wastage and poor management of his over the last 20 months, I am struggling to think of one dominant team in 40+yrs to have been put together from scratch in 2 yrs.
But hey..what do us VanGaalites know about football and the best interest of our club.


I think we have all been very patient. There just comes a point when it's ridiculous. How does LVG still have the job? No other club would tolerate such results. Of course we will all lose our minds. He should have been gone in December.
 
I think we have all been very patient. There just comes a point when it's ridiculous. How does LVG still have the job? No other club would tolerate such results. Of course we will all lose our minds. He should have been gone in December.
You sure about that?
 
The pettiness.. People are not embarrass to support LVG and what he believes is achievable, it's just embarrassing watching fans turn on each other because our beliefs are different.
LVG will move on but if this new culture of us tearing into the players and club doesn't stop, the desired success will not come our way. This toxic environment has a worse effect on players than tactics.
I am not claiming to better a better fan..all some of us want is to enjoy football for the reality it is and not the perceived fantasy some would expect it to be. For all the wastage and poor management of his over the last 20 months, I am struggling to think of one dominant team in 40+yrs to have been put together from scratch in 2 yrs.
But hey..what do us VanGaalites know about football and the best interest of our club.

Dominated is years away, nobody expects that so I think it's you with the skewed perception here. People would settle for decent and not boring right now.

If you're going to then say you meant title challenging even Rodgers gave it a good go with that shower of shite in his second season. But then he did have a philosophy and we all know the power of belief....
 
Blimey! Why's this thread still alive? Should be killed / merged with the LvG out thread, given that clearly there's nobody left to argue for the motion any more... To be fair, I used to believe (used to convince myself to believe, actually) that there was substance to LvG's philosophy. Those days are long gone. Frankly, he's brought it upon himself. The dichotomies in his statements makes it clear. Says he wants pace on the wings, but plays Mata on the right. Says he wants strikers who stay in their position and make quick runs, but plays Rooney there (positional discipline, what?). Says he wants clever players who pass well and penetratingly, but plays Fellaini ahead of Herrera... The list is endless...
 
The pettiness.. People are not embarrass to support LVG and what he believes is achievable, it's just embarrassing watching fans turn on each other because our beliefs are different.
LVG will move on but if this new culture of us tearing into the players and club doesn't stop, the desired success will not come our way. This toxic environment has a worse effect on players than tactics.
I am not claiming to better a better fan..all some of us want is to enjoy football for the reality it is and not the perceived fantasy some would expect it to be. For all the wastage and poor management of his over the last 20 months, I am struggling to think of one dominant team in 40+yrs to have been put together from scratch in 2 yrs.
But hey..what do us VanGaalites know about football and the best interest of our club.

No one expected him to put together a dominant side in two years however they expected that we would show steady improvement which hasn't happened at all.

As for the 'toxic culture' comment, the fan bases of Barcelona and Real Madrid aren't known to be forgiving of poor performances and they've had no issues with success. We've been more than supportive of Van Gaal but there is a limit.
 
It is hard to build something in scratch from 2 years. But Van Gaal is an experienced manager and he knew what was expected of him at Manchester United. If he couldnt build something from scratch in the time he should have treated this as an extensive renovation job, rather than taking a wrecking ball to the team and starting from scratch. The foundations were there, just like they are now for Mourinho when he comes in.
 
If he gets 4th and we win the FA cup I think he has probably earned the right to get one more season - especially given the injuries we have had (though you can of course argue that perhaps its his training regime or his imbalanced squad that has caused those problems)

So for me I wouldn't personally be upset if he stayed - and I do quite like the notion of Giggs taking over in a years time (yes even though he has no proper experience - just because he is a legend and I grew up as a massive fan of his)

I can completely understand others clamouring for Jose or Simeone and being dissapointed we have missed out on pep, anchelotti and klopp but for me I could live with another season of LVG

That said I done expect its going to happen I think we simply wont get 4th and he will be gone (even if he wins the fa cup)
 
The pettiness.. People are not embarrass to support LVG and what he believes is achievable, it's just embarrassing watching fans turn on each other because our beliefs are different.
LVG will move on but if this new culture of us tearing into the players and club doesn't stop, the desired success will not come our way. This toxic environment has a worse effect on players than tactics.
I am not claiming to better a better fan..all some of us want is to enjoy football for the reality it is and not the perceived fantasy some would expect it to be. For all the wastage and poor management of his over the last 20 months, I am struggling to think of one dominant team in 40+yrs to have been put together from scratch in 2 yrs.
But hey..what do us VanGaalites know about football and the best interest of our club.
Build the team from scratch?
 
The pettiness.. People are not embarrass to support LVG and what he believes is achievable, it's just embarrassing watching fans turn on each other because our beliefs are different.
LVG will move on but if this new culture of us tearing into the players and club doesn't stop, the desired success will not come our way. This toxic environment has a worse effect on players than tactics.
I am not claiming to better a better fan..all some of us want is to enjoy football for the reality it is and not the perceived fantasy some would expect it to be. For all the wastage and poor management of his over the last 20 months, I am struggling to think of one dominant team in 40+yrs to have been put together from scratch in 2 yrs.
But hey..what do us VanGaalites know about football and the best interest of our club.

Utter bollox from beginning to end!
 
After 4th place last year, I expected us to move forward (top 3) this season. Unfortunately, we have gone backwards in every aspect.
Less goals. Less points. Boring play. etc etc.
These are the reasons why I want him gone.
He simply isn't able to get us higher than 4th place.
4th place is his target every season and he openly admits it now. In fact, the media are convinced that if he gets 4th place, he'll achieve his objective and will stay on.

And this thread should be merged with the LVG out thread.
 
If he gets 4th and we win the FA cup I think he has probably earned the right to get one more season - especially given the injuries we have had (though you can of course argue that perhaps its his training regime or his imbalanced squad that has caused those problems)

But do you feel 4th place is acceptable?
Since when did 4th place become the all important target for MUFC?

So for me I wouldn't personally be upset if he stayed - and I do quite like the notion of Giggs taking over in a years time (yes even though he has no proper experience - just because he is a legend and I grew up as a massive fan of his)

You want Giggs to be the manager because you were a fan of his, when he was a player?
 
Anyone genuinely suggesting Van Gaal has been beneficial to us overall is wumming massively