Who still has faith in The Philosophy? / LVG Supporters' Thread

Dr. Funkenstein said:
It's not a question of faith, I know the philosophy is sound. It has worked everywhere and led to serious overachievements, it hasn't worked everywhere all the time, but nowhere there's been an 20 month period without it baring fruit. The question is why it doesn't work at United. The answer probably lies in what the philosophy is and what it isn't.

It started and developped as a set of methods to make the squad of a club perform better with more team spirit and better organized attacking football. But not just any club, it was only implemented at clubs with players that were technically better and smarter than most of the competing clubs. It was never designed for or tested on relegation football or typical midtable football. The starting point is that the players are better footballers than the opponent, so they will have to play much better than the opponent. The opponent having the technically better players is the exception, and this exception can be handled by better playing as a team. That always was the case, at Ajax, at Barca, at AZ, at Bayern and at the Dutch national team. They might not have been particularly good teams in everyway when he arrived, but they were always technically superior to most in passing, first touch, close control etc, just the basics of the possession game.

So probably the reason that it doesn't work here is because the players aren't technically superior nor smarter, or the difference with most opponents is too small. They have to move the ball around faster, but they don't have the particular talent to move the ball around fast. If they play too slow it doesn't open up defences, and if they move it around fast enough they lose the ball under pressure. With a few players aging quickly, some other weak spots and the impossibility/lack of success in signing technically excellent players, implementing the philosophy on the given squad has become an experiment, a first. Does it also work when the players have hardly any technical superiority over most of the opponents and aren't the smartest either?

Appearantly not. It seemed to work at many occasions, but the consistency isn't there, not from match to match, but also not within one match. If they played all matches like they did against Chelsea for the largest part of that match, they would win the title. But for it to really work they need the consistency and that takes more quality than just a good half or two good matches in a row. If I look at the passing, first touches and vision today of Rooney, Smalling, Carrick, Schneiderlin, Lingard and even Mata and you'd turn the question around and ask what would be the kind of football that will make those players shine most, it's just not possession football. With a Rooney and Van Persie as good as a couple of years ago, Di Maria, an in form Herrera, Shaw, Schweinsteiger, the answer could be different.

I wonder if LvG had known beforehand what the technical skills of the players were he would end up with against Sunderland, he would have chosen this style, or even this club.
Click to expand...

So he's done a crap job then
 
Sultan said:
An intelligent manager wouldn't be as rigid. Basically, you play to the players strengths and not try to implement a tired old philosophy in a new league and players who have been coached differently throughout their careers.
Click to expand...
The point is that the player's strengths looked more likely to fit a possession game in 2014 than the actual player's strengths right now. At Bayern it worked, this tired old philosophy brought them some sparkling new football.

What I really dislike about your comment is that you don't wat a manager to coach players differently. That's a lack of ambition, if you hang on to the old ways it's also a choice to stay on the downhill sloap. It's not that change wasn't needed and United was firmly among Europe's best and a favorite for winning the CL until LvG arrived, and the need for change might have been masked by Ferguson, it was already there. A choice for Guardiola or Pochettino would also be a choice for change. If you can't handle change, you have to handle a not very bright future.

Eboue said:
If your system needs better players than your opponent in order to win then it isn't a very good system.
Click to expand...
That's not what I said. Until now, the philosophy has always been implemented on squads with good technique in comparison to most of the other teams in the league. It's not only technique that makes the quality of a squad, but players who are good at passing and first touch were playing better and got more effective with this possession football. Now at United the current players are hardly technically superior to most teams, and that might explain why they can't produce the possession football consistently. I think an explanation is needed, because with all his troubles at former clubs, once it clicked it kept clicking, at least for a long run. This unclicking from one match to another is very untypical of Van Gaal, en typical for United under Van Gaal.
 
Dr. Funkenstein said:
The point is that the player's strengths looked more likely to fit a possession game in 2014 than the actual player's strengths right now. At Bayern it worked, this tired old philosophy brought them some sparkling new football.

That's not what I said. Until now, the philosophy has always been implemented on squads with good technique in comparison to most of the other teams in the league. It's not only technique that makes the quality of a squad, but players who are good at passing and first touch were playing better and got more effective with this possession football. Now at United the current players are hardly technically superior to most teams, and that might explain why they can't produce the possession football consistently. I think an explanation is needed, because with all his troubles at former clubs, once it clicked it kept clicking, at least for a long run. This unclicking from one match to another is very untypical of Van Gaal, en typical for United under Van Gaal.
Click to expand...
in a much less competitive league. Each game LVGs excuse for not breaking teams down is 'they were well organised'. like they are not allowed to be. Leicester are top of the league with the least possession. When LVG arrived he openly said he wanted to change English mentality, prefers players to play with their head and not their gut. Then makes Wayne Rooney captain
 
Dr. Funkenstein said:
It's not a question of faith, I know the philosophy is sound. It has worked everywhere and led to serious overachievements, it hasn't worked everywhere all the time, but nowhere there's been an 20 month period without it baring fruit. The question is why it doesn't work at United. The answer probably lies in what the philosophy is and what it isn't.

It started and developped as a set of methods to make the squad of a club perform better with more team spirit and better organized attacking football. But not just any club, it was only implemented at clubs with players that were technically better and smarter than most of the competing clubs. It was never designed for or tested on relegation football or typical midtable football. The starting point is that the players are better footballers than the opponent, so they will have to play much better than the opponent. The opponent having the technically better players is the exception, and this exception can be handled by better playing as a team. That always was the case, at Ajax, at Barca, at AZ, at Bayern and at the Dutch national team. They might not have been particularly good teams in everyway when he arrived, but they were always technically superior to most in passing, first touch, close control etc, just the basics of the possession game.

So probably the reason that it doesn't work here is because the players aren't technically superior nor smarter, or the difference with most opponents is too small. They have to move the ball around faster, but they don't have the particular talent to move the ball around fast. If they play too slow it doesn't open up defences, and if they move it around fast enough they lose the ball under pressure. With a few players aging quickly, some other weak spots and the impossibility/lack of success in signing technically excellent players, implementing the philosophy on the given squad has become an experiment, a first. Does it also work when the players have hardly any technical superiority over most of the opponents and aren't the smartest either?

Appearantly not. It seemed to work at many occasions, but the consistency isn't there, not from match to match, but also not within one match. If they played all matches like they did against Chelsea for the largest part of that match, they would win the title. But for it to really work they need the consistency and that takes more quality than just a good half or two good matches in a row. If I look at the passing, first touches and vision today of Rooney, Smalling, Carrick, Schneiderlin, Lingard and even Mata and you'd turn the question around and ask what would be the kind of football that will make those players shine most, it's just not possession football. With a Rooney and Van Persie as good as a couple of years ago, Di Maria, an in form Herrera, Shaw, Schweinsteiger, the answer could be different.

I wonder if LvG had known beforehand what the technical skills of the players were he would end up with against Sunderland, he would have chosen this style, or even this club.
Click to expand...

So the philosophy is to have better players than the opponent. Genius.
Maybe if we give him a couple of hundred million to buy whoever he wants over a few transfer windows, he could assemble this uber-squad that would implement this illusive 'be better than them' philosophy?
Oh that's right, he's squandered millions already, nullified the natural attacking ability of some promising players, persecuted champions and ostracised proven winners. All in the name of his faux philosophy. He's an charlatan and a thief. At least Dick Turpin wore a mask.
 
I'm still behind him. I know I'm in a very small minority but I'm fully in the belief that the players are just not up to it. DDG, Martial and Shaw are the only first team players that would be classed as current quality. We have some promising youth, but the rest fall way short for me. Rooney has done little for years and he looks so lacking in leadership qualities, I'm staggered he is our captain, let alone England's too! Smalling is a good player but he and blind have had protection of 2 X DM all season.
I'm only sticking with LvG as I feel he can do a good job building a decent squad and to change now would be pointless as I don't feel Jose, Pep or whoever else could get much more of a tune out of this squad.
Like I say, I know I'm in a minority and my opinions on the squad is going to be unpopular but 2 managers have now struggled with many of this squad and as much as many don't like them managers, they are not bad managers.
 
soapythecat said:
I'm still behind him. I know I'm in a very small minority but I'm fully in the belief that the players are just not up to it. DDG, Martial and Shaw are the only first team players that would be classed as current quality. We have some promising youth, but the rest fall way short for me. Rooney has done little for years and he looks so lacking in leadership qualities, I'm staggered he is our captain, let alone England's too! Smalling is a good player but he and blind have had protection of 2 X DM all season.
I'm only sticking with LvG as I feel he can do a good job building a decent squad and to change now would be pointless as I don't feel Jose, Pep or whoever else could get much more of a tune out of this squad.
Like I say, I know I'm in a minority and my opinions on the squad is going to be unpopular but 2 managers have now struggled with many of this squad and as much as many don't like them managers, they are not bad managers.
Click to expand...

Oh shut up.
 
I personally believe that Luis would eventually get us to the top, but with one year left on his contract, its pointless.
He is/was a fantastic coach, but he's too old now, and doesn't have that desire and hunger for success that SAF had in his 70s. The media bombardment is making him and his family miserable, and we're miserable for him.
It's as if he's on a life support machine at the moment, and Ed refuses to switch it off.
 
soapythecat said:
I'm still behind him. I know I'm in a very small minority but I'm fully in the belief that the players are just not up to it. DDG, Martial and Shaw are the only first team players that would be classed as current quality. We have some promising youth, but the rest fall way short for me. Rooney has done little for years and he looks so lacking in leadership qualities, I'm staggered he is our captain, let alone England's too! Smalling is a good player but he and blind have had protection of 2 X DM all season.
I'm only sticking with LvG as I feel he can do a good job building a decent squad and to change now would be pointless as I don't feel Jose, Pep or whoever else could get much more of a tune out of this squad.
Like I say, I know I'm in a minority and my opinions on the squad is going to be unpopular but 2 managers have now struggled with many of this squad and as much as many don't like them managers, they are not bad managers.
Click to expand...

If he was about 50, I'd agree with this.
 
soapythecat said:
I'm still behind him. I know I'm in a very small minority but I'm fully in the belief that the players are just not up to it. DDG, Martial and Shaw are the only first team players that would be classed as current quality. We have some promising youth, but the rest fall way short for me. Rooney has done little for years and he looks so lacking in leadership qualities, I'm staggered he is our captain, let alone England's too! Smalling is a good player but he and blind have had protection of 2 X DM all season.
I'm only sticking with LvG as I feel he can do a good job building a decent squad and to change now would be pointless as I don't feel Jose, Pep or whoever else could get much more of a tune out of this squad.
Like I say, I know I'm in a minority and my opinions on the squad is going to be unpopular but 2 managers have now struggled with many of this squad and as much as many don't like them managers, they are not bad managers.
Click to expand...

:lol: I'm sorry but that post is deluded beyond belief. He's had four transfer windows to strengthen the squad and has failed miserably. At the rate he's currently moving at, we may have a decent first XI by 2020. In regard to Rooney, it was Van Gaal's decision to ship out all the competition he had and then fail to sign new players. It seemed an awful decision at the time which nearly everyone pointed out and it has become reality.

Also Moyes has been shown up as the mediocre manager (at best) that he is after his stint at Sociedad. It's a bloody travesty that Van Gaal has somehow managed to do worse than him. I genuinely didn't think it was possible.
 
soapythecat said:
I'm still behind him. I know I'm in a very small minority but I'm fully in the belief that the players are just not up to it. DDG, Martial and Shaw are the only first team players that would be classed as current quality. We have some promising youth, but the rest fall way short for me. Rooney has done little for years and he looks so lacking in leadership qualities, I'm staggered he is our captain, let alone England's too! Smalling is a good player but he and blind have had protection of 2 X DM all season.
I'm only sticking with LvG as I feel he can do a good job building a decent squad and to change now would be pointless as I don't feel Jose, Pep or whoever else could get much more of a tune out of this squad.
Like I say, I know I'm in a minority and my opinions on the squad is going to be unpopular but 2 managers have now struggled with many of this squad and as much as many don't like them managers, they are not bad managers.
Click to expand...
How many players have survived from the Moyes era?

De Gea: double player of the year, only world class player

Smalling: best defender at the club.

Jones: it was Van Gaal who chose to give him a sparkling new contract.

Rooney: LVG made him captain, and then declared him undroppable. Fergie had tried to initiate the process of getting rid.

Young: a dependable player for Van Gaal that he has used extensively.

Fellaini: a player Van Gaal had used well last season, then inexplicably decided to play him as a striker this season. That bombed so he has now decided to use as a route 1 while his philosophy struggles.

Valencia : a player that Van Gaal chose as his no. 1 rb last season. Has been dependable though.

Mata: decent player, one of the most productive players under Van Gaal.

Everyone else, he's bought himself. Its a nonsensical argument that easily disputed with facts. If the players arent good enough, its because he brought them here, meaning he's both incompetent tactically and in targetting players to fit his system.
 
soapythecat said:
I'm still behind him. I know I'm in a very small minority but I'm fully in the belief that the players are just not up to it. DDG, Martial and Shaw are the only first team players that would be classed as current quality. We have some promising youth, but the rest fall way short for me. Rooney has done little for years and he looks so lacking in leadership qualities, I'm staggered he is our captain, let alone England's too! Smalling is a good player but he and blind have had protection of 2 X DM all season.
I'm only sticking with LvG as I feel he can do a good job building a decent squad and to change now would be pointless as I don't feel Jose, Pep or whoever else could get much more of a tune out of this squad.
Like I say, I know I'm in a minority and my opinions on the squad is going to be unpopular but 2 managers have now struggled with many of this squad and as much as many don't like them managers, they are not bad managers.
Click to expand...

And who's shoulders does that rest on?
 
At this point, anyone who wants LVG to stay clearly does not hold the best interests of mufc to heart.

Our allegiance should be to Manchester United.... Not LVG.
 
Akshay said:
Yep. Sunderland was the straw that broke the camel's back for me. I was in favor of replacing him at the end of the season but now I want him out asap.
Click to expand...

Why has it taken this long for you to come to this view? As if the other previous games did not clearly show LVG is not the answer? Not being cheeky but genuinely interested to know.
 
K2K said:
How many players have survived from the Moyes era?

De Gea: double player of the year, only world class player

Smalling: best defender at the club.

Jones: it was Van Gaal who chose to give him a sparkling new contract.

Rooney: LVG made him captain, and then declared him undroppable. Fergie had tried to initiate the process of getting rid.

Young: a dependable player for Van Gaal that he has used extensively.

Fellaini: a player Van Gaal had used well last season, then inexplicably decided to play him as a striker this season. That bombed so he has now decided to use as a route 1 while his philosophy struggles.

Valencia : a player that Van Gaal chose as his no. 1 rb last season. Has been dependable though.

Mata: decent player, one of the most productive players under Van Gaal.

Everyone else, he's bought himself. Its a nonsensical argument that easily disputed with facts. If the players arent good enough, its because he brought them here, meaning he's both incompetent tactically and in targetting players to fit his system.
Click to expand...

I'm sure even he would admit that he screwed up badly in the transfer market, and it's biting him in the arse right now. However, he's still a top manager.
Sometimes relations between club and manager just work, and sometimes it doesn't. Look at Ranieri at Leicester. It's just worked. Van Gaal would definitely turns things around, learning from all the things that have gone wrong, but with a year before he retires, it would be pointless.
 
soapythecat said:
Not just LvG's. Everyone seems to lay all the blame at his door yet he is not the one doing the deals. The fees and players coming and going are not his fault. He says what players he wants, whether we get them or not is the boards problem.
Click to expand...
You're contradicting yourself. Is or isn't LvG responsible for identifying the targets/players he wants? Whoever does the deals, is pretty irrelevant. If LvG has signed players who's not good enough to execute his philosophy - surely he should shoulder 99% of the blame?
 
Stringer said:
:lol: I'm sorry but that post is deluded beyond belief. He's had four transfer windows to strengthen the squad and has failed miserably. At the rate he's currently moving at, we may have a decent first XI by 2020. In regard to Rooney, it was Van Gaal's decision to ship out all the competition he had and then fail to sign new players. It seemed an awful decision at the time which nearly everyone pointed out and it has become reality.

Also Moyes has been shown up as the mediocre manager (at best) that he is after his stint at Sociedad. It's a bloody travesty that Van Gaal has somehow managed to do worse than him. I genuinely didn't think it was possible.
Click to expand...
Pure delusion.

When Van Gaal was questioned why he had sold all of the strikers that could have been competition for Rooney this season, his response was to claim that he doesnt believe in competition, but rather in trusting his players.

That decision has bombed extensively. He's a deluded old fool out of touch with the English game, being exposed each week.

'' i can make any player better, i am sorry if that sounds arrogant, but its true''

Now the excuse is that he needs the perfect players to make his philosophy work.
 
Stringer said:
:lol: I'm sorry but that post is deluded beyond belief. He's had four transfer windows to strengthen the squad and has failed miserably. At the rate he's currently moving at, we may have a decent first XI by 2020. In regard to Rooney, it was Van Gaal's decision to ship out all the competition he had and then fail to sign new players. It seemed an awful decision at the time which nearly everyone pointed out and it has become reality.

Also Moyes has been shown up as the mediocre manager (at best) that he is after his stint at Sociedad. It's a bloody travesty that Van Gaal has somehow managed to do worse than him. I genuinely didn't think it was possible.
Click to expand...
Ok, as for competition for Rooney - Chicarito wanted to be starting or out, so he leaves. RvP was poor all last season and many were happy to see him gone. Wilson went on loan and proved he is at his current ability now. I'm sure he wanted more but is that not Woodwards fault?
Moyes was fairly consistent as Everton manager but struggled from there. He had shown at Everton he was a good manager though.
I though LvG did ok last window as the player he brought in had had decent seasons. They haven't performed yet in a United shirt.
 
Esquire said:
Why has it taken this long for you to come to this view? As if the other previous games did not clearly show LVG is not the answer? Not being cheeky but genuinely interested to know.
Click to expand...
Two main reasons. One is that I didn't see a good immediate replacement since I'm not a big fan of Mourinho's play-style and general behavior. I absolutely do not want Giggs taking over. The second is that I felt he would still be able to squeak us into the top 4 and that was the best we can hope for now anyway. I preferred to make the change in the summer.

With results going the way they are, I'm more willing to accept Mourinho as an emergency solution. Don't have any belief left that LVG can get us 4th.
 
vidic blood & sand said:
I'm sure even he would admit that he screwed up badly in the transfer market, and it's biting him in the arse right now. However, he's still a top manager.
Sometimes relations between club and manager just work, and sometimes it doesn't. Look at Ranieri at Leicester. It's just worked. Van Gaal would definitely turns things around, learning from all the things that have gone wrong, but with a year before he retires, it would be pointless.
Click to expand...
I agree with most of your post - sometimes, it just doesn't work for various reasons. But the bit about LvG being able to turn it around - I'm not so sure myself anymore. You'd, logically expect progression, from one season to the next. So last season he was cut a lot of slack for these reasons and he basically, achieved his minimum target for the season. But instead of learning from his mistakes, he's compounded them this season with various other judgement errors & we've actually seen regression, not progression IMO.

So it seems the "more LvG puts his stamp" on this team, the worse were getting.
 
I lost all hope after the Norwich defeat, Southampton added to this f feeling and then yesterday took the full piss, we have never lost to sunderland in the prem. Schooled with a team with John o Shea in, a team that yes have improved of late, but even Moyes could get points of them.
 
soapythecat said:
I'm still behind him. I know I'm in a very small minority but I'm fully in the belief that the players are just not up to it. DDG, Martial and Shaw are the only first team players that would be classed as current quality. We have some promising youth, but the rest fall way short for me. Rooney has done little for years and he looks so lacking in leadership qualities, I'm staggered he is our captain, let alone England's too! Smalling is a good player but he and blind have had protection of 2 X DM all season.
I'm only sticking with LvG as I feel he can do a good job building a decent squad and to change now would be pointless as I don't feel Jose, Pep or whoever else could get much more of a tune out of this squad.
Like I say, I know I'm in a minority and my opinions on the squad is going to be unpopular but 2 managers have now struggled with many of this squad and as much as many don't like them managers, they are not bad managers.
Click to expand...

I ventured into this thread willingly so need to stay calm. Here we go. I get what you are saying in that some of the players are not United material, let alone first XI. That said, you do realise he spent 250m to get his team in, gotten rid of some very good players who didn't buy into his philosophy, got rid of Di Maria who was his purchase and the creative player that he said he so sorely needed. The team after 18 months is entirely of his construction. So you surely cannot compare DM's team with LVG's team because LVG purged that old team a long time ago. So say you need world class players to make the system work is a bit nonsensical. Yes, we realise that we do need more world class players but isn't this fantastic LVG philosophy supposed to go a long way to improve the performance of the team as a whole?
 
Ish said:
You're contradicting yourself. Is or isn't LvG responsible for identifying the targets/players he wants? Whoever does the deals, is pretty irrelevant. If LvG has signed players who's not good enough to execute his philosophy - surely he should shoulder 99% of the blame?
Click to expand...
Of course he is responsible for the players he brings in, but my point which I didn't put across well was I'm sure he would have wanted more quality but the club didn't get them.
Of the players he's brought in, I'd say Schneiderlin and BS have been disappointing the rest have done a good job. Injuries have been an issue.
You could argue that BS was ideally suited to play this way, having done so under PG at Bayern but it just hasn't worked out.
 
kouroux said:
I couldn't have said it better but I'll go even further as saying he's become a charlatan. He might have done some overrated good work at his previous jobs but at Utd he's been nothing but a joke and a showoff.
Click to expand...
That's so true. It's truely mind-boggling. Some overrated good work, mixed with some serious failure is the perfect description of what he has done since he left Ajax 20 years ago.
 
vidic blood & sand said:
I'm sure even he would admit that he screwed up badly in the transfer market, and it's biting him in the arse right now. However, he's still a top manager.
Sometimes relations between club and manager just work, and sometimes it doesn't. Look at Ranieri at Leicester. It's just worked. Van Gaal would definitely turns things around, learning from all the things that have gone wrong, but with a year before he retires, it would be pointless.
Click to expand...
So its a game of chance with him? We just got unlucky this time.

I dont buy this at all. He's been at two European megapowers before ( Bayern and Barca) , and both times things have been this bad he's not been able to turn it around. Actually things got worse. Case in point: Bayern in 2011, he was struggling and they had made the decision to let him go at the end of the season. What ensued in the next month was bizarre decisions, woeful football and even worse results. So Bayern got rid immediately, and just about recovered to make the UCL.

So history shows us that he doesnt turn things around, pleasr show me tangible evidence to give us this belief that he would learn anything.

When he lost the UCL final to Jose in 2010, it was because he was allowed to hog the ball, while Inter hit them on the counter. Years later, Jose and many other premiership managers have used the same tactics to beat his teams. He has learnt nothing.
 
soapythecat said:
Not just LvG's. Everyone seems to lay all the blame at his door yet he is not the one doing the deals. The fees and players coming and going are not his fault. He says what players he wants, whether we get them or not is the boards problem.
Click to expand...

Have you seen Woodward's interview with MUTV at the beginning of the season? He confirms that LVG sanctions all players coming in. This team is entirely of his choosing. I just want to know on what evidence you are saying there will be a turnaround?
 
soapythecat said:
Ok, as for competition for Rooney - Chicarito wanted to be starting or out, so he leaves. RvP was poor all last season and many were happy to see him gone. Wilson went on loan and proved he is at his current ability now. I'm sure he wanted more but is that not Woodwards fault?
Moyes was fairly consistent as Everton manager but struggled from there. He had shown at Everton he was a good manager though.
I though LvG did ok last window as the player he brought in had had decent seasons. They haven't performed yet in a United shirt.
Click to expand...

I'm sure Woodward had a part of it but Van Gaal was obviously a a significant factor and has to shoulder the blame. Maybe if those two idiots didn't spend the entire summer trying to lure players from Real Madrid and Bayern Munich, they may have had time to identify realistic targets who could have helped. Rooney was poor last season as well and he should have recognised that backup would be needed. I assume Van Gaal really believed that Memphis would fit in straight away and that has backfired massively.

They may have been decent at their old clubs but if they don't prove it at United, they have to go down as poor transfers. Now I'm not writing any of them off as players do take time to adapt but it's worrying how few of them have played well.
 
Esquire said:
Have you seen Woodward's interview with MUTV at the beginning of the season? He confirms that LVG sanctions all players coming in. This team is entirely of his choosing. I just want to know on what evidence you are saying there will be a turnaround?
Click to expand...

It's actualLy hilarious that these guys think that LVG doesn't pick his targets and sanction who comes in and out. It's like having your head in sand for 30 years. This is LVG we are talking about FFS, there is a 0% chance he keeps his mouth shut if he doesn't have full control. He would be the first person to go off on one (see every other club he's been at).
 
Akshay said:
Two main reasons. One is that I didn't see a good immediate replacement since I'm not a big fan of Mourinho's play-style and general behavior. I absolutely do not want Giggs taking over. The second is that I felt he would still be able to squeak us into the top 4 and that was the best we can hope for now anyway. I preferred to make the change in the summer.

With results going the way they are, I'm more willing to accept Mourinho as an emergency solution. Don't have any belief left that LVG can get us 4th.
Click to expand...

Well, however this LVG thing is going to play out, this season has been a disaster. There is no way we can get 4th because there is no basis to place any optimism upon, we are just playing too poorly. Forget Europa. FA cup? I'm laughing.

I am not Jose's biggest fan but I do believe he will bring an instant uplift.
 
Stringer said:
I'm sure Woodward had a part of it but Van Gaal was obviously a a significant factor and has to shoulder the blame. Maybe if those two idiots didn't spend the entire summer trying to lure players from Real Madrid and Bayern Munich, they may have had time to identify realistic targets who could have helped. Rooney was poor last season as well and he should have recognised that backup would be needed. I assume Van Gaal really believed that Memphis would fit in straight away and that has backfired massively.

They may have been decent at their old clubs but if they don't prove it at United, they have to go down as poor transfers. Now I'm not writing any of them off as players do take time to adapt but it's worrying how few of them have played well.
Click to expand...

100% has to fall on LVG. How can it not? Do people seriously think Wopdward says we should buy x y and z and LVG just approves it? Or Woodward instigates who we target? Nonsense. It's quite apparent LVG picks his man then hands-off to Woodward to do the rest.

LVG is solely responsible for the players we have purchased or sold. Woodward has his own million and one faults, but selecting who we buy and sell isn't one of them.
 
Esquire said:
Have you seen Woodward's interview with MUTV at the beginning of the season? He confirms that LVG sanctions all players coming in. This team is entirely of his choosing. I just want to know on what evidence you are saying there will be a turnaround?
Click to expand...
On the same evidence I believe that any other manager would need to do to turn this around - by throwing more money at it to buy our way out. It won't be a quick turnaround.
 
rpitroda said:
It's actualLy hilarious that these guys think that LVG doesn't pick his targets and sanction who comes in and out. It's like having your head in sand for 30 years. This is LVG we are talking about FFS, there is a 0% chance he keeps his mouth shut if he doesn't have full control. He would be the first person to go off on one (see every other club he's been at).
Click to expand...

Yeah, so that is why I find it so hard for the LVG supporters to say this average playing staff should not be lain at his door. I honestly am befuddled.
 
soapythecat said:
On the same evidence I believe that any other manager would need to do to turn this around - by throwing more money at it to buy our way out. It won't be a quick turnaround.
Click to expand...

Of course it won't be a quick around and of course it's going to take cash because LVG ballsed up the multi-hundred million pounds he has spent since he arrived.
 
In that final against Inter, it will come as no great suprise to the people subjected to the crap philosophy of Van Gaal that Bayern had 68 percent possesion, and Inter were still the better side, with the then Bayern captain Mark Bommel even admitting that Inter were the more effective team.
 
soapythecat said:
On the same evidence I believe that any other manager would need to do to turn this around - by throwing more money at it to buy our way out. It won't be a quick turnaround.
Click to expand...

That's just blind faith with no light, no sparkle which actually justifies that faith.

And the throwing more money part. 250 m gross spend surely must have bought him some noticeable improvement? Haven't seen that. But let's give him more?

So it's not about the philosophy or system, but about sheer economic power now? I'm sure even LVG would disagree with you on that one.
 
soapythecat said:
Not just LvG's. Everyone seems to lay all the blame at his door yet he is not the one doing the deals. The fees and players coming and going are not his fault. He says what players he wants, whether we get them or not is the boards problem.
Click to expand...

Yes he said he wanted ADM, got him and then sold him inside 12 months because he stifled the life out of him, he also decided the player who has been named Bundesliga player of the month three months running wasn't worthy of playing for United anymore, and also decided it was a good idea to shift out good squad players without any real replacement, it was more through luck than planning that we managed to get Martial in at the last minute imo, imagine where we'd be without him.

Then people harp on about the youth, other than Lingard which offensive player has been given a proper chance? Wilson loaned, Januzaj loaned, Pereria never played, etc, he has been forced into playing players lile McNair, Blackett, Varela, and Borthwick-Jackson through sheer lack of options, the fact Borthwick-Jackson looks a good player is sheer good luck imo, he also deems it fit to constantly play two DM to protect these players.

There is no progression, no style, no fight, people give him so much benefit of doubt becasue of what he's done in the past, but he is done at the top now, the fact we have persisted 18 months with this says more about our club management than anything else, the mid boggles that people still stand by him at this point, but it seems some do.
 
K2K said:
So its a game of chance with him? We just got unlucky this time.

I dont buy this at all. He's been at two European megapowers before ( Bayern and Barca) , and both times things have been this bad he's not been able to turn it around. Actually things got worse. Case in point: Bayern in 2011, he was struggling and they had made the decision to let him go at the end of the season. What ensued in the next month was bizarre decisions, woeful football and even worse results. So Bayern got rid immediately, and just about recovered to make the UCL.

So history shows us that he doesnt turn things around, pleasr show me tangible evidence to give us this belief that he would learn anything.

When he lost the UCL final to Jose in 2010, it was because he was allowed to hog the ball, while Inter hit them on the counter. Years later, Jose and many other premiership managers have used the same tactics to beat his teams. He has learnt nothing.
Click to expand...

Bayern knocked us out on the way to that final, and it was the beginning of an awesome Bayern Munich team. We can look at the positives, and the negatives of Van Gaal, but in the end it doesn't matter. He's retiring next year, and his blunders in the transfer market will cost him his job. He has been an excellent coach, but it hasn't worked at United because he bought and sold very badly, and has been unlucky with injuries. He is screwed, and he knows it, but he will always be remembered as a great coach by those who remember him at Ajax, Barca, Bayern, and AZ.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.