Having said I wouldn't dignify a stupid comment with a response, I had kind of backed myself into a corner tbh....
Is Forum code for "I was wrong, but I won't admit it"
Ok, feck dignity.
When a manager sends a young player out on loan does this really mean he doesn't rate him? I mean, seriously, that's what you said. Surely you're not dumb enough to mean it?!
Having said I wouldn't dignify a stupid comment with a response, I had kind of backed myself into a corner tbh....
you're dodging the question, you said "Regarding how close he is to our squad/first team, the last time he was available for selection Van Gaal picked him ahead of established first teamers so I'm not sure you're right about that either"
This is not simply not true, Lingard played wing back the first game of the season because there was no viable alternative, Young was injured, Shaw was fat and Rojo and Blind were playing for other clubs.
When he became available in the New Year, he didn't get back in the squad he was farmed out on loan to Derby.
He did well aside from the goal. Carried the ball forward well. 'Fantastic' might be a little generous.
Bugger. Didn't know that. Is he likely to sit out the next U21 game?
Pretty sure Young started the game, also when Lingard came back Di Maria and Januzaj both couldn't get in the team, a loan was inevitable since we had also changed formation. I think the fact he played him indicates that he did rate him somewhat.
Oh ho ho! Zing! Pogue you got owned lol hahaahaheeheTook your time, struggling to find the info on Google?
Sounds a bit like a certain Paul Scholes.
Not when we were pushing for a top four finish, if Van Gaal rated Lingard, he would have been straight back in the squad after recovering from injury, not playing for Derby in the Championship.
That's nonsense, of course he wouldn't. By then Van Gaal was bang in the middle of a difficult season with selection headaches, formation crises, results not going his way, too many attacking players and not enough defensive options. He wasn't about to start fecking around with untried youngsters at that stage.
I said in the squad, not the first team, both Pereira and Wilson were in the squad and both made the bench at some stage during the run in, I would consider one, if not both as untried youngsters.
Lingard was loaned out after he recovered from his injury because he needed regular football, especially after that long injury layoff and that was something he wouldn't have had being in the squad. Would have been more detrimental to his development, we did the right thing by loaning him to derby.
Wilson and Pereira are younger and could benefit more from training with the 1st team and being on the bench.
I understand a manager sending players out on loan to develop them, they also send them out on loan to put them in the shop window, I think Lingard falls into the latter.
My original point before I got railroaded, was Lingard, like a few of the lads we have produced from the Academy recently are Championship level, I stand by that.
I honestly think our Academy needs a massive shake up, We have already fallen behind City and to a lesser extent Everton.
Tbh with that comment, I'm not sure what you're on about. On what planet have we fallen behind City in youth development? they just throw money at kids and pretty much zero have come through bar Pozzo, who didn't look ready.
But back to Lingard and your Championship level comment; which is so vague it hurts. What exactly is championship level by your definition? what players are you saying he is akin to? Are you also saying that he has hit his development ceiling now?
I said in the squad, not the first team, both Pereira and Wilson were in the squad and both made the bench at some stage during the run in, I would consider one, if not both as untried youngsters.
We have fallen behind City, just because they don't have any kids breaking through now, doesn't mean their academy is shite, they have state of the art facilities, they are employing the best coaches in the business and are hoovering up the best kids in the local area and further afield, we as an Academy are resting on our Laurels and need to have a significant change in how we do business at an Academy level.
We have fallen behind City, just because they don't have any kids breaking through now, doesn't mean their academy is shite, they have state of the art facilities, they are employing the best coaches in the business and are hoovering up the best kids in the local area and further afield, we as an Academy are resting on our Laurels and need to have a significant change in how we do business at an Academy level.
As regards my comment regarding Championship level, it means not good enough for the Premiership, it's not rocket science.
You can keep saying it but where's the actual evidence? We bring kids into the first team, they don't. We are regularly winning the U21 League and the Youth Cup, they aren't. The Premier League and football league are heaving with players trained by United's academy, whereas there can't be more than a handful of City alumni.
So what on earth are you on about?
I'm talking about the here and now, their academy at the younger age groups has overtaken ours, they are ruthlessly building for the future, we are trading on past glory and need to address our operation.
I'm talking about the here and now, their academy at the younger age groups has overtaken ours, they are ruthlessly building for the future, we are trading on past glory and need to address our operation.
Just simply not true at the u18 level as well.
EDIT: just to point out, the second stage, which is the important one, City came joint bottom.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014–15_Professional_U18_Development_League
Just simply not true at the u18 level as well.
EDIT: just to point out, the second stage, which is the important one, City came joint bottom.
You've still yet to mention a single piece of evidence that their academy has 'overtaken ours'. We're still winning things a lot at youth level, producing first team players, and getting youngsters into good clubs throughout the PL and FL, and they're not. Past glory? We are the current U21 champions.
Academy's start at U9 not U18, they are better than us in the younger age groups, they are building from the bottom up.
Some surprising teams doing badly there...
Arsenal 11th of 12 in the first stage, putting them in division 3, in which they came bottom with W1 D1 L5
Also Fulham, Soton in division 3, West Ham & Liverpool 2nd bottom of division 2.
He's not putting his point across particularly well but what he's saying is true as by all accounts things are a bit of a mess at the club from under 16s down. Were still trying to do a lot of things in a very old fashioned manner and failing to move with the times. Brian McClair leaving was part of this and both Moyes and Van Gaal have noticed a need for an overhaul at the younger age levels and hopefully that will begin this summer starting with the appointment of a new academy managerYou've still yet to mention a single piece of evidence that their academy has 'overtaken ours'. We're still winning things a lot at youth level, producing first team players, and getting youngsters into good clubs throughout the PL and FL, and they're not. Past glory? We are the current U21 champions.
He's not putting his point across particularly well but what he's saying is true as by all accounts things are a bit of a mess at the club from under 16s down. Were still trying to do a lot of things in a very old fashioned manner and failing to move with the times. Brian McClair leaving was part of this and both Moyes and Van Gaal have noticed a need for an overhaul at the younger age levels and hopefully that will begin this summer starting with the appointment of a new academy manager
@hebegebe Fair enough, if this is your point about the academies. The way you were putting it seems a bit dramatic in comparison to the above.
Had to laughyou're dodging the question, you said "Regarding how close he is to our squad/first team, the last time he was available for selection Van Gaal picked him ahead of established first teamers so I'm not sure you're right about that either"
This is not simply not true, Lingard played wing back the first game of the season because there was no viable alternative, Young was injured, Shaw was fat and Rojo and Blind were playing for other clubs.
When he became available in the New Year, he didn't get back in the squad he was farmed out on loan to Derby.
He's not putting his point across particularly well but what he's saying is true as by all accounts things are a bit of a mess at the club from under 16s down. Were still trying to do a lot of things in a very old fashioned manner and failing to move with the times. Brian McClair leaving was part of this and both Moyes and Van Gaal have noticed a need for an overhaul at the younger age levels and hopefully that will begin this summer starting with the appointment of a new academy manager
Now McLaren is at Newcastle I could see him going there.
i hope not(loan or transfer)!
It's not dramatic, City want to get Homegrown players in the first team, they are putting the infrastructure in place now, they are signing up all the best coaches and players, implementing modern coaching methods and vastly improving their scouting network, whereas United and Liverpool are standing still.
Why? He seemed to do well enough under him at Derby.