Zero clean sheets and not scoring away in 50% of matches against Top 9 in the league **6 points from these fixtures was enough to win the Title!**

The Oracle

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Jun 22, 2020
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Our league away form against the Top 9 last season was atrocious and has continued into this season.
Erik ten Hag has to start improving our away league results against the Top 9.
Keeping a clean sheet would be a great start!

Look at the stats:

2022/23
Brentford 4-0 Man Utd
Man City 6-3 Man Utd
Aston Villa 3-1 Man Utd
Arsenal 3-2 Man Utd
Liverpool 7-0 Man Utd
Newcastle 2-0 Man Utd
Spurs 2-2 Man Utd
Brighton 1-0 Man Utd

7 losses, 1 draw (1 point from 24)
Failed to score in 4 out of 8 fixtures (50% of matches)
Zero clean sheets

2023/24
Spurs 2-0 Man Utd
Arsenal 3-1 Man Utd

2 losses (0 points from 6)
Failed to score in 1 out of 2 fixtures (50% of matches)
Zero clean sheets

Overall:
10 matches, 9 losses, 1 draw
1 point from a possible 30
Zero clean sheets
Failed to score in 5 out of 10 games (50% of matches)


...damning overall to be honest, fortunately our home league results have been excellent: 15 wins, 3 draws, 1 loss (last season) and 2 wins from 2 home league games this season.

Last season City managed just 6 points against the Top 9 away from home, but it was enough to win the league!

League Position 2022/23​
Points from Top 9 away fixtures​
Goals For​
Goals Against​
1. Man City​
6​
9​
11​
2. Arsenal​
16​
19​
13​
3. Man Utd​
1​
8​
28​
4. Newcastle
9​
5​
9​
5. Liverpool
9​
12​
17​
6. Brighton
7​
12​
17​
7. Aston Villa
5​
6​
13​
8. Spurs
4​
11​
23​
9. Brentford
8​
10​
17​

The information for the figures in the table was sourced from premierleague.com
 
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It'll turn. We were fecked by the refs a bit in these 2 this season (plus the injuries yesterday), and now that we actually have a striker it'll make a massive difference.

Last season we were incapable of dealing with a press so teams pressed us to death, while also we had no CF who could do anything with a long ball in terms of hold up play, plus the attacker work ethic was pathetic, so it just led to shit performances for the most part. This just isn't the case anymore, though unfortunately it basically has to wait until after the international window. But Onana and Hojlund will make the difference for this and I'd anticipate it looks more normal for this season.
 
It's a new season. Sample size is a whopping two matches. So happens we performed better in those than our home matches (at least three quarters of them).
 
Bastian said:
It's a new season. Sample size is a whopping two matches. So happens we performed better in those than our home matches (at least three quarters of them).
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This.
Honestly don't care about the record last season. It's closed and this one opened.
 
The Oracle said:
Our league away form against the Top 9 last season was atrocious and has continued into this season.
Erik ten Hag has to start improving our away league results against the Top 9.
Keeping a clean sheet would be a great start!

Look at the stats:

2022/23
Brentford 4-0 Man Utd
Man City 6-3 Man Utd
Aston Villa 3-1 Man Utd
Arsenal 3-2 Man Utd
Liverpool 7-0 Man Utd
Newcastle 2-0 Man Utd
Spurs 2-2 Man Utd
Brighton 1-0 Man Utd

7 losses, 1 draw (1 point from 24)
Failed to score in 4 out of 8 fixtures (50% of matches)
Zero clean sheets

2023/24
Spurs 2-0 Man Utd
Arsenal 3-1 Man Utd

2 losses (0 points from 6)
Failed to score in 1 out of 2 fixtures (50% of matches)
Zero clean sheets

Overall:
10 matches, 9 losses, 1 draw
1 point from a possible 30
Zero clean sheets
Failed to score in 5 out of 10 games (50% of matches)


...damning overall to be honest, fortunately our home league results have been excellent: 15 wins, 3 draws, 1 loss (last season) and 2 wins from 2 home league games this season.
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Could you compile those stats for the entire top 8? (Including Spurs, Newcastle, and Brighton.) Cause while this is obviously not great and should improve, I think people overestimate what's a reasonable outcome for these games (i.e., away games against direct competitors).
 
It's an unacceptable record that can't just be casually hand-waved away. Need to improve.

Not calling for ETH's head, mind you.
 
OK point of procedure : For comparison do we keep the same teams or do we wait the end of the season to see who is the top 9 this year ?

Not to deny there's a glaring weakness here but that's a moving sample. United finished 5th in away games last year I believe ?
 
The Oracle said:
Our league away form against the Top 9 last season was atrocious and has continued into this season.
Erik ten Hag has to start improving our away league results against the Top 9.
Keeping a clean sheet would be a great start!

Look at the stats:

2022/23
Brentford 4-0 Man Utd
Man City 6-3 Man Utd
Aston Villa 3-1 Man Utd
Arsenal 3-2 Man Utd
Liverpool 7-0 Man Utd
Newcastle 2-0 Man Utd
Spurs 2-2 Man Utd
Brighton 1-0 Man Utd

7 losses, 1 draw (1 point from 24)
Failed to score in 4 out of 8 fixtures (50% of matches)
Zero clean sheets

2023/24
Spurs 2-0 Man Utd
Arsenal 3-1 Man Utd

2 losses (0 points from 6)
Failed to score in 1 out of 2 fixtures (50% of matches)
Zero clean sheets

Overall:
10 matches, 9 losses, 1 draw
1 point from a possible 30
Zero clean sheets
Failed to score in 5 out of 10 games (50% of matches)


...damning overall to be honest, fortunately our home league results have been excellent: 15 wins, 3 draws, 1 loss (last season) and 2 wins from 2 home league games this season.
Click to expand...

It's not great, but surely a large portion of the responsibility for this lies with the players? It's not all on ETH.
 
His first 6 away games in Eredivisie against PSV/Feyenoord/AZ ended in 1 draw and 5 losses, while his last 6 games ended in 4 wins and 2 draws.

Guess he needs some time to figure it out.
 
When we win its ETH and when we lose its the players judging by a few posts here.
 
Of course last season's results come into this, it's part of an overall pattern of abysmal performances and results away from home against any half-decent opposition in the PL.

Those defeats have included numerous trashings and concession of late goals, which point to a weak mentality within the squad.
 
Cheimoon said:
Could you compile those stats for the entire top 8? (Including Spurs, Newcastle, and Brighton.) Cause while this is obviously not great and should improve, I think people overestimate what's a reasonable outcome for these games (i.e., away games against direct competitors).
Click to expand...

Now done.

City collected 6 points from these fixtures and that was enough to win the league!
 
Andy_Cole said:
Ten Hag has been exposed here. It’s embarrassing.
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Doesn't make for great reading and is very poor.

Our home form saved us last season, but we need to start getting results on the road against the Top teams.
 
ayushreddevil9 said:
When we win its ETH and when we lose its the players judging by a few posts here.
Click to expand...
I think he needs time personally. Its definitely on him but the start to this season with everything going on and injuries have not helped him
 
bosnian_red said:
It'll turn. We were fecked by the refs a bit in these 2 this season (plus the injuries yesterday), and now that we actually have a striker it'll make a massive difference.

Last season we were incapable of dealing with a press so teams pressed us to death, while also we had no CF who could do anything with a long ball in terms of hold up play, plus the attacker work ethic was pathetic, so it just led to shit performances for the most part. This just isn't the case anymore, though unfortunately it basically has to wait until after the international window. But Onana and Hojlund will make the difference for this and I'd anticipate it looks more normal for this season.
Click to expand...

Yes I agree that Onana and Hojlund will make a difference this season.
Onana is ice cool in possession and Hojlund looks like he has lots of potential and is willing to get stuck in and let the opposition defenders know he is there.
 
I think in all honesty it looks worse as a whole but in a few of these games we really should have gotten more from the game and just had freakishly bad outcomes. It balances out in a way because our home record shouldn’t be so good but we somehow win those games
 
I like his character but at times his football… A bit wishy washy. We might be seeing a ceiling of coming from a much weaker league honestly.

Klopp despite starting slow I really did enjoy his style. When it’s right it’s so hard to stop.

We are half and half. An all round decent side but nothing special about any feature in our play. Slightly above average basically.

He’d get 80+ points at Ajax playing this way but not in the Premier League.
 
Bastian said:
It's a new season. Sample size is a whopping two matches. So happens we performed better in those than our home matches (at least three quarters of them).
Click to expand...

Sample size is limited, but is showing that the trends from last season (no clean sheets away to Top 9 and only scoring in 50% of those fixtures) are continuing.
 
Big Ben Foster said:
It's an unacceptable record that can't just be casually hand-waved away. Need to improve.

Not calling for ETH's head, mind you.
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Just one win or two draws from the same 9 fixtures this season would be an improvement on last seasons results.
 
Plastic Evra said:
OK point of procedure : For comparison do we keep the same teams or do we wait the end of the season to see who is the top 9 this year ?

Not to deny there's a glaring weakness here but that's a moving sample. United finished 5th in away games last year I believe ?
Click to expand...

I think it would be safe to say that Spurs and Arsenal are very likely to finish Top 9 this season, so the ongoing theme from last season of no clean sheets away from home against the Top 9, and not scoring in 50% of those fixtures, has continued into this season.

In a nutshell can we better the 1 point we achieved last season away from home against the same teams this season (regardless of whether or not the teams finish in the Top 9), and if there is a new Top 9 come the end of the season, will we have achieved a better tally of 1 point against them?
 
Nicoseth said:
It's not great, but surely a large portion of the responsibility for this lies with the players? It's not all on ETH.
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The players have to take some responsibility, but the buck stops with the manager, after all he chooses the team, the formation, the substitutes, the tactics and everything else there is for him to do.
 
PSV said:
His first 6 away games in Eredivisie against PSV/Feyenoord/AZ ended in 1 draw and 5 losses, while his last 6 games ended in 4 wins and 2 draws.

Guess he needs some time to figure it out.
Click to expand...

Things can only get better for sure, 1 point to improve on means two draws or one win against the Top 9 away from home this season.
 
The Oracle said:
Just one win or two draws from the same 9 fixtures this season would be an improvement on last seasons results.
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Arsenal's record looks incredible in that table. Was not expecting that at all. :eek:

A far cry from the Arsenal sides of circa 2007-2020 who would capitulate in just about every big game.
 
The Oracle said:
Now done.

City collected 6 points from these fixtures and that was enough to win the league!
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Thanks! That's great for comparative purposes. United is actually more behind the norm than I thought. It also shows that these fixtures aren't necessarily the key to the title (compare City to Arsenal) - but they are a very obvious area for improvement for United. Just start performing more like other top teams, and that's another 6-9 points added to the season's haul.

My impression is that the occasion gets to the players too often - and maybe Ten Hag is too negative on these occasions as well. You'd have to hope the new players have more of a big game mentality, and that Ten Hag will start feeling emboldened to let his team out their stamp on those matches more.
 
Jeez - the next 2 weeks is going to be terrible with all the moaning here .

Arsenal did feck all this weekend. They were very lucky to win and needed help from Referee. I had to wait until 80th minute to see a shot on target in second half (Saka). Last season it was wave after wave and high pressing by Arsenal.

We should have been 3-0 up by half time against Spurs. Ok, blame our forwards for the misses but the penalty should have been awarded .

So stop moaning for the sake of it . Speak with facts !
 
bond19821982 said:
Jeez - the next 2 weeks is going to be terrible with all the moaning here .

Arsenal did feck all this weekend. They were very lucky to win and needed help from Referee. I had to wait until 80th minute to see a shot on target in second half (Saka). Last season it was wave after wave and high pressing by Arsenal.

We should have been 3-0 up by half time against Spurs. Ok, blame our forwards for the misses but the penalty should have been awarded .

So stop moaning for the sake of it . Speak with facts !
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That was good.
 
We had a pretty dreadful G/D last season and although It’s only four games in but it’s already negative which does not bode well because we still don’t look like we are capable of scoring many goals but our defence looks incredibly shaky. Have we ever finished a season with a negative G/D?
 
A midfield of Casemiro and Eriksen will always lose out. The centre of your team that can't run and don't value possession of the ball will always cause trouble. No team that's competing at the top has a midfield as bad as ours. Maybe Amrabat and Mount will improve us here.

An attack that can't hold the ball up under pressure and play in tight spaces. You cannot maintain possession in the oppositions third if every time you play a pass into the channels or through the lines you lose out because you don't have the strength and close control to keep the ball. This, in turn, puts more pressure on us defensively because we can't give ourselves a break from dealing with pressure in our third.

Another problem with our attack aside from being lightweights is that we don't have one consistent dribbler. Some think having dribblers in the team are a luxury, but they're a necessity. You need them to add a different dimension to your play because you can't open up every team with passing. Even Pep's greatest teams that were master passers needed dribblers. They also make the team harder to press as a result.

Everything ahead of our back 5 is a huge problem, and it gets shown up in the big games where the teams are more eager to press us instead of sitting back.
 
There’s really nothing more to say here other than the obvious. We need to win more games.
 
Play little bit more defensive next time, look at how we played against arsenal we sat deep taking in pressure instead of pressing from the front and we hit them with fast counter-attack. SAF was never shy away from using different tactic against specific opponent. Remember how we beat Arsenal 49-unbeaten run in 2004/05? We kicked their players off the park to the point where they failed to recover, and we used that tactic at Old Trafford.
 
The Oracle said:
The players have to take some responsibility, but the buck stops with the manager, after all he chooses the team, the formation, the substitutes, the tactics and everything else there is for him to do.
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We've already heard ETH say, on more than one occasion, that the players are not executing his instructions. He can be the most prepared and ambitious coach in the world but the clowns on the field have to actually do what he's asking.
 
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