Youth players in European Cup Finals

Mr. MUJAC

Manchester United Youth Historian
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Walter Crickmer started it all...
I was asked a question by a couple of people how our Academy historically stands up to Barcelona, Ajax and others.

It's very hard to get data from certain countries to make domestic comparisons, so teams like Athletic Bilbao, Red Star Belgrade and others have got pretty good records in their domestic leagues but its impossible to work out where many of their players came from.

In terms of European football it becomes a lot easier as all the information is available.

So while other clubs have lauded youth systems, and rightly so, here are some interesting stats.

In terms of the number of youth players developed by teams that then went on to represent their original clubs in European Cup Final victories it looks like this.

18. Manchester United (3)
17. Real Madrid (10)
17. Barcelona (5)
14. Ajax (4)
11. AC Milan (7)
10. Bayern Munich (5)
9. Liverpool (5)
6. Nottingham Forest (2)
5. Celtic (1)
5. Porto (2)

The number in brackets is the number of Cup wins.

If you average the number out then it changes things a little:

6.0 Manchester United
5.0 Celtic
3.5 Ajax
3.0 Nottingham Forest
3.0 Barcelona
2.5 Porto
2.0 Bayern Munich
1.8 Liverpool
1.7 Real Madrid
1.6 AC Milan


In addition, Donald Love became the 250th youth graduate to be involved in first team squads, and 50% of all our first team players since 1939 have come through the youth system. The best in the UK and probably Europe (no idea on South America)

So while our Youth set-up may be getting some negative criticism of late, at least historically we have been at the forefront of youth development.

It was great to hear Nicky Butt talk about developing European Cup winning players as his vision for our Academy moving forward.

Looking forward to seeing how this all comes to fruition.
 
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All it takes is one or two players to break through to change the entire perspective of how our youth set up is viewed. I don't think it is as bleak as some make out. I am more worried about other areas of the club.

Can we do better? of course but for a moment it looked as if we were going to completely let the youth set up go to shit due to the inaction.. but as long as the club proves it is still a vital part of the club going forwards, we will do alright.
 
Good work and nice to see that we stand up well against the best in Europe.

Not sure what the average figures do to add to the picture really as the likes of Real and Barca etc. will have had the same youth players representing them in multiple finals which depletes their average when compared to a team like Celtic. It would probably work better if you were able to present the average number per final (allowing you to double and triple count players that made multiple appearances).
 
Thanks @Mr. MUJAC

Always informative. It'll be interesting to see how things develop over the next 5-10 years as the rivalry between City and United progresses. City have invested heavily in terms of youth development facilities, and Ed Woodward's review should see United's plans start to roll out soon.
 
Mr. MUJAC said:
8. Bayern Munich (5)
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How did you get to that number? Do you mean that only 8 players who played in our youth academy played in a European Cup/Champions League final for us? Because that's not true at all.

Beckenbauer, Maier, Schwarzenbeck, Weiß from the 70's, Augenthaler, Pflügler, Mathy in the 80's, Babbel, Kuffour, Hargreaves in the late 90's/early 00's and Lahm, Schweinsteiger, Badstuber, Müller, Contento, Alaba and Kroos from this decade. That are 17 I'm sure off, no idea if I forgot someone.
 
Balu said:
How did you get to that number? Do you mean that only 8 players who played in our youth academy played in a European Cup/Champions League final for us? Because that's not true at all.

Beckenbauer, Maier, Schwarzenbeck, Weiß from the 70's, Augenthaler, Pflügler, Mathy in the 80's, Babbel, Kuffour, Hargreaves in the late 90's/early 00's and Lahm, Schweinsteiger, Badstuber, Müller, Contento, Alaba and Kroos from this decade. That are 17 I'm sure off, no idea if I forgot someone.
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Some played in finals but didn't get winners medals.

The players I have are:

1974 - Maier, Schwartzenbeck, Beckenbauer
1975 - Weiss
1976 -
2001 - Kuffour, Hargreaves
2013 - Lahm, Scweinsteiger, Muller

So apologies...it should be 9 for Bayern not 8 as I just counted incorrectly. I've edited original to reflect this.
 
facund said:
Good work and nice to see that we stand up well against the best in Europe.

Not sure what the average figures do to add to the picture really as the likes of Real and Barca etc. will have had the same youth players representing them in multiple finals which depletes their average when compared to a team like Celtic. It would probably work better if you were able to present the average number per final (allowing you to double and triple count players that made multiple appearances).
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These are all different players. I didn't count anyone twice.

The averages therefore express their ability to bring youth players through for the most important of games.
 
Mr. MUJAC said:
Some played in finals but didn't get winners medals.
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Oh, you only counted the winners? That wasn't clear in your opening post as you only talked about playing in finals, at least not to me. Also Alaba played in the final in 2013 and should be included as well then.

In general it's a bit odd to judge the quality of youth academies like that, even more if you exclude youth players of a winning generation who missed a final because they were suspended or injured but were clearly part of the squad for the majority of the season, e.g. Kroos played in the final 2012 and has a winner's medal for 2013, yet doesn't count? Doesn't make any sense to me.

I also think that for example a club like Juve shouldn't be judged solely on their 2 CL/EC wins while their countless final appearances and UEFA cup wins are ignored. Seems like a very selective way and it's more coincidence than anything else for United to top this particular list.
 
Balu said:
Oh, you only counted the winners? That wasn't clear in your opening post as you only talked about playing in finals, at least not to me. Also Alaba played in the final in 2013 and should be included as well then.

In general it's a bit odd to judge the quality of youth academies like that, even more if you exclude youth players of a winning generation who missed a final because they were suspended or injured but were clearly part of the squad for the majority of the season, e.g. Kroos played in the final 2012 and has a winner's medal for 2013, yet doesn't count? Doesn't make any sense to me.

I also think that for example a club like Juve shouldn't be judged solely on their 2 CL/EC wins while their countless final appearances and UEFA cup wins are ignored. Seems like a very selective way and it's more coincidence than anything else for United to top this particular list.
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Not really.

If you consider that Real Madrid played in say 20 CL seasons in a row...but may only have won it once. I'm not sure you should compare them to say Napoli who didn't play in CL but appeared numerous times in EUFA Cup etc. Real Madrid cannot play in a weaker competition because they qualified for the premier tournament.

I was comparing pinnacle achievement and the European Cup/Champions League is the pinnacle event.

Can't believe I missed Alaba so apologies. I think his nationality threw me.

Lot's of teams have young players involved but they miss finals. So I wasn't being exclusive there. For example, during United's finals the likes of Francis Burns, Jonny Evans and others may have been involved but for injury. It's impossible to look at who MIGHT have played. I can only go on who did play. Scholes missed the 1999 final through suspension so he wasn't counted for that season. There is swings and roundabouts for all clubs.

Finally, I'm not judging United's Academy by this one statistic alone. I was asked a question by a few people and answered it. Having said that...to have 18 youth players feature in three winning finals does actually say something.
 
Messi missed the 2006 Final due to injury, as well. What about those on the bench?

Not even sure how these numbers are tabulated, are you counting repeat participants over the years?

For Barcelona:

2006
Played: Valdes, Oleguer, Puyol, Iniesta (4)
Bench: Jorquera, Motta, Xavi (3)

2009
Played: Valdes, Pique, Busquets, Xavi, Messi, Pedro (6)
Bench: Bojan, Muniesa (2)

2011
Played: Valdes, Pique, Busquets, Xavi, Iniesta, Messi, Pedro, Puyol (8)
Bench: Thiago, Bojan, Olazabal (3)

2015
Played: Pique, Alba, Busquets, Iniesta, Messi, Xavi, Pedro (7)
Bench: Bartra, Rafinha (2)
 
Mr. MUJAC said:
If you consider that Real Madrid played in say 20 CL seasons in a row...but may only have won it once. I'm not sure you should compare them to say Napoli who didn't play in CL but appeared numerous times in EUFA Cup etc. Real Madrid cannot play in a weaker competition because they qualified for the premier tournament.

I was comparing pinnacle achievement and the European Cup/Champions League is the pinnacle event.
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But then you should do pre 1996 / post 1996 lists ? After the extension from 1 team to 2 and shortly after to 4 clubs from the top leagues, the CL has become a totally different competition and the UEFA Cup /Europa League was significanly devalued.

Mr. MUJAC said:
Having said that...to have 18 youth players feature in three winning finals does actually say something.
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No doubt about that. It's obvious that United's academy has been brilliant over the decades and was crucial to the success of the EC/CL winning generations and I'm sure a more meaningful list that takes a lot more factors into account would have United at the top or at least close to the top as well. I just think your way is very flawed to prove it. I'm aware that a more complex list would also take a lot more time to create, so I don't expect you to do it of course ;).

I fully agree with the last part of your opening post by the way:
Mr. MUJAC said:
It was great to hear Nicky Butt talk about developing European Cup winning players as his vision for our Academy moving forward.

Looking forward to seeing how this all comes to fruition.
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Well not in regards to United, but I really enjoy following the plans for our new academy at Bayern in a similar way. I think that even today with the open market and almost unrestricted possibilities to buy players the importance of academy players shouldn't be underrated and will be a key ingredient for future success. I think that's true for almost all big clubs who want to stay at the top longterm (Real being the obvious exception).
 
FCBarca said:
Messi missed the 2006 Final due to injury, as well. What about those on the bench?

Not even sure how these numbers are tabulated, are you counting repeat participants over the years?

For Barcelona:

2006
Played: Valdes, Oleguer, Puyol, Iniesta (4)
Bench: Jorquera, Motta, Xavi (3)

2009
Played: Valdes, Pique, Busquets, Xavi, Messi, Pedro (6)
Bench: Bojan, Muniesa (2)

2011
Played: Valdes, Pique, Busquets, Xavi, Iniesta, Messi, Pedro, Puyol (8)
Bench: Thiago, Bojan, Olazabal (3)

2015
Played: Pique, Alba, Busquets, Iniesta, Messi, Xavi, Pedro (7)
Bench: Bartra, Rafinha (2)
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No...not including repeats.

2006 included Valdes, Puyol, Iniesta, Jorquera, Xavi...Motta came from Juventus while Oleguer played 41 games for Gremenet before joining Barca (both according to Wiki)
2009 included Pique, Busquets, Messi, Pedro, Bojan...I missed out Muniesa
2011 included Thiago but olazabal came from another club
2015 included Alba, Bartra but I missed Rafinha as his nationality threw me

So I need to add two more to Barca's...thanks a lot for helping with accuracy.
 
Balu said:
But then you should do pre 1996 / post 1996 lists ? After the extension from 1 team to 2 and shortly after to 4 clubs from the top leagues, the CL has become a totally different competition and the UEFA Cup /Europa League was significanly devalued.


No doubt about that. It's obvious that United's academy has been brilliant over the decades and was crucial to the success of the EC/CL winning generations and I'm sure a more meaningful list that takes a lot more factors into account would have United at the top or at least close to the top as well. I just think your way is very flawed to prove it. I'm aware that a more complex list would also take a lot more time to create, so I don't expect you to do it of course ;).

I fully agree with the last part of your opening post by the way:

Well not in regards to United, but I really enjoy following the plans for our new academy at Bayern in a similar way. I think that even today with the open market and almost unrestricted possibilities to buy players the importance of academy players shouldn't be underrated and will be a key ingredient for future success. I think that's true for almost all big clubs who want to stay at the top longterm (Real being the obvious exception).
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Thanks for the additional comments and it's good to see the likes of Bayern, Barca and other teams focus on youth development.

I'm not sure the info is flawed because it's just data and I'm drawing limited conclusions if you read my original post. in other words, I'm not trying to prove anything. You can cut and paste data a hundred ways.

Let's just focus on the last four years...then Barca tops the list hands down. Real Madrid won it five years in a row with no substitutes so lets factor that in. You get my point.

The only thing I say is that given our poor form of late we have always been at the forefront of youth development.

Do you have any data on the number of Academy players to come through your system and reach the first team in total?
 
Mr. MUJAC said:
These are all different players. I didn't count anyone twice.

The averages therefore express their ability to bring youth players through for the most important of games.
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Sorry I may well have not expressed my point clearly.

I was getting at the idea of repetition that FCBarca mentions.

To create an example:

If we take just Barca from 2011 and 2015:

Barca played 2 finals and had 14 unique academy representatives participate (based on the FCBarca list). This gives them an average of 7 across the 2 finals

The reality is that Barca had 11 academy representatives participate in 2011 and 9 in 2015. If we allow for repetition this would make their average 10. Otherwise you are essentially punishing a team for appearing in more finals with the same group of players when it comes to averages. By virtue of appearing in the second final their average drops from 11 to 7 despite still being a team filled with academy graduates, that just doesn't seem to be a particularly relevant outcome.

The 1950's Real Madrid side could possibly suffer worst from this (I really don't know), their dominance with what I would assume to be a reasonably settled team would decimate their average through it's consistent brilliance alone.

#Edit# - Good work though. it makes for interesting consideration and I don't mean to undermine your efforts.
 
facund said:
Sorry I may well have not expressed my point clearly.

I was getting at the idea of repetition that FCBarca mentions.

To create an example:

If we take just Barca from 2011 and 2015:

Barca played 2 finals and had 14 unique academy representatives participate (based on the FCBarca list). This gives them an average of 7 across the 2 finals

The reality is that Barca had 11 academy representatives participate in 2011 and 9 in 2015. If we allow for repetition this would make their average 10. Otherwise you are essentially punishing a team for appearing in more finals with the same group of players when it comes to averages. By virtue of appearing in the second final their average drops from 11 to 7 despite still being a team filled with academy graduates, that just doesn't seem to be a particularly relevant outcome.

The 1950's Real Madrid side could possibly suffer worst from this (I really don't know), their dominance with what I would assume to be a reasonably settled team would decimate their average through it's consistent brilliance alone.

#Edit# - Good work though. it makes for interesting consideration and I don't mean to undermine your efforts.
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No problem.

I see what you mean, and yes it would be better to have two sets of statistics.

One with the unique graduates and the other with youth players per game as the average. I take that completely.

In terms of Real Madrid...just for completeness their early domination looks like this:

1956 - none
1957 - none
1958 - Santisteban
1959 - Santisteban, Ruiz
1960 - Vidal

So it doesn't make a big difference to their statistics.
 
Sky1981 said:
Ajax treble team in the 90s consists mostly youth iirc

Vds

Hoekstra bogarde deboer blind
Overmars davids seedorf babangida deboer kluivert litmanen
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Ajax of that period had both De Boer brothers, Rijkard, Reiziger, Seedorf, Davids, Kluivert...

Half the other players you mention all came from other clubs.
 
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