Wine Draft: R1 - Pat_Mustard vs NM

With players at their peak, who would win?

  • Total voters
    11
  • Poll closed .

Physiocrat

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Pat Mustard

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NM

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Pat Mustard Tactics

Formation: 4-3-1-2

It's 90s Serie A time for Team Mustard, as we deploy the 4-3-1-2 formation that the likes of Lippi and Ancelotti both used with considerable success. We'll generally drop deep in the organised defensive phase, and the midfield unit is built to stay compact, close off spaces, and press relentlessly. The FBs Cabrini and Sagnol will provide much of the attacking width, with Baggio given creative freedom in the trequartista role and two aggressive, hardworking strikers in Butragueno and Riva ahead of him.

NM Tactics

Tactics:
1. Defense: GK is amongst the best to do it. The defense is old fashioned - stopper (Billy Costacurta) and Ball Player (Hierro). Hierro will step in alongside Vieira if needed to help with the midfield battle when we have the ball. The full backs primary job will be to defend to allow Ronaldo and Kopa full freedom. Chose Tassoti on the right as he is known for stamina, workrate and running up and down the flank. Kopa is going to drift in.

2. Midfield: Vieira will sit. Hierro will step up sometimes when we have the ball. Iniesta and Coluna are both creative, with Coluna being given freedom due to Vieira. Without the ball, Coluna will drop deeper to assist Vieira while Iniesta and Kopa will look to release Ronaldo and Fontaine.

3. Attack: Ronaldo gonna Ronaldo. Kopa played on the right for Madrid but was at his best as a AM (also combined beautifulyl with Fontaine in the 58 WC). He will start right but drift in as needed to overload the center. I truly don't know too much about Fontaine. Going to do some research but his record is nuts. If he played for a bigger team or didn't retire early due to injury I think he would be rated very differently. Hope to have more details there.
 
@Pat_Mustard Very clean setup. Mendieta would excel in that role. I'm not sure of Deschamps though. Is he adept in wider areas to play the shuttling role? I always remember him as a proper DM, anchoring with Davids and Zidane as AM.
 
Physiocrat said:
@Pat_Mustard Very clean setup. Mendieta would excel in that role. I'm not sure of Deschamps though. Is he adept in wider areas to play the shuttling role? I always remember him as a proper DM, anchoring with Davids and Zidane as AM.
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Good question, and one that I should have addressed in my dismally lazy write-up. Deschamps as a cagey, conservative and defensive choice in that midfield role is one of the keys to the theme in fact. @Gio touched on this in his excellent Lippi remake in a previous draft here, but Lippi actually used Deschamps in this role extensively in their first two seasons at Juventus, winning the league and Coppa Italia in 1994-95 and the Champions League in 1995-96. Paulo Sousa was the deep-lying playmaker at the base of that midfield, with the likes of Deschamps, Conte, Marocchi etc flanking him in narrow, compact three-man midfields. Sousa talks a bit about that midfield structure here, with a pertinent bit being that Deschamps was more about the horizontal defensive covering duties, with Conte slanting towards the vertical attacking thrusts, a role that should suit Mendieta to a tee:



There's a slight irony in using Mendieta in a Serie A-themed team given that his career went off the rails so suddenly at Lazio, but I think that can safely be put down to the chaos at Lazio and probably an abrupt physical/mental decline in Mendieta himself given that he never entirely regained his level in either Spain or England.
 
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NM said:
Good luck bad. Good team. Not a Rodri fan and think Ronaldo will have the beating of Sagnol, but your team looks good too.
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Sagnol was a good all-round RB but I agree that Ronaldo has a very substantial advantage there in terms of individual quality. I'm quite happy with the supporting structure around Sagnol though. On the deck, we have Mendieta's monstrous defensive work rate and the masterful Baresi on that side of the pitch. In the air, we have Chiellini and Rodri as aerial powerhouses to help defend against crosses.

The aerial threat of Ronaldo and Fontaine actually looks a bit under-utilised here: Tassotti could contribute offensively but wasn't really a renowned crosser, and I have no idea if crossing was a prominent part of Kopa's game.

My other minor criticism is Vieira as the single pivot: he spent most of his career sharing the defensive duties with an equally or more defensive-minded partner (Petit, Gilberto, Makelele etc), freeing him up to press more aggressively in the defensive phase and contribute going forward in the attacking phase. He was brilliant defensively, but I'm not sure that the full-time holding role against someone like Baggio is an assignment he'd particularly enjoy.
 
@Pat_Mustard Nice vid and explains Deschamps role well. I don't remember that Juve side that well but it sure seems a bit dull. Yours seems a bit easier on the eye.
 
Physiocrat said:
@Pat_Mustard Nice vid and explains Deschamps role well. I don't remember that Juve side that well but it sure seems a bit dull. Yours seems a bit easier on the eye.
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Aye, they were definitely weren't the most free-flowing team around, although with Baggio and/or Del Piero there was always scope for bona fide artistry too, and the strikers Ravanelli and particularly Vialli were good to watch. Sousa was easy on the eye too, and even as a kid you just knew you were seeing something special watching the likes of Kohler and Ferrara defend. I loved Torricelli too for some reason :lol:

It's certainly nice being able to add a bit more individual quality and invention with the luxury of an all-time pool though.
 
Thoughts on Rodri? Wasn't sure how he'd be received but for me he's quite comfortably earned his place in all-time drafts by now. Highly touted at Villareal, great breakthrough season at a top team with Atletico, tough first season at City followed by three progressively better ones. He's now probably the most irreplaceable part of the best team in the world, and the best holding midfielder in the world. Excelled under two managers with drastically different styles of play, is an excellent ball-winner with great positioning, is press resistant, passes accurately and at high volume. It's quite a skill set he brings, and he's been doing it for quite a while now at a high level.
 
Pat_Mustard said:
Thoughts on Rodri? Wasn't sure how he'd be received but for me he's quite comfortably earned his place in all-time drafts by now. Highly touted at Villareal, great breakthrough season at a top team with Atletico, tough first season at City followed by three progressively better ones. He's now probably the most irreplaceable part of the best team in the world, and the best holding midfielder in the world. Excelled under two managers with drastically different styles of play, is an excellent ball-winner with great positioning, is press resistant, passes accurately and at high volume. It's quite a skill set he brings, and he's been doing it for quite a while now at a high level.
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Brilliant player, if I knew he'd fall that far I would have just held off on Alonso and secured another position instead.
 
Pat_Mustard said:
Good question, and one that I should have addressed in my dismally lazy write-up. Deschamps as a cagey, conservative and defensive choice in that midfield role is one of the keys to the theme in fact. @Gio touched on this in his excellent Lippi remake in a previous draft here, but Lippi actually used Deschamps in this role extensively in their first two seasons at Juventus, winning the league and Coppa Italia in 1994-95 and the Champions League in 1995-96. Paulo Sousa was the deep-lying playmaker at the base of that midfield, with the likes of Deschamps, Conte, Marocchi etc flanking him in narrow, compact three-man midfields. Sousa talks a bit about that midfield structure here, with a pertinent bit being that Deschamps was more about the horizontal defensive covering duties, with Conte slanting towards the vertical attacking thrusts, a role that should suit Mendieta to a tee:



There's a slight irony in using Mendieta in a Serie A-themed team given that his career went off the rails so suddenly at Lazio, but I think that can safely be put down to the chaos at Lazio and probably an abrupt physical/mental decline in Mendieta himself given that he never entirely regained his level in either Spain or England.
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Thanks for sharing, hadn't seen that before. Sousa was a cracking player. But yeah from what I re-watched of Juve during the pandemic Deschamps did a lot of horizontal shuttling on and off the ball, which was slightly different to how I remembered from later in the 90s where he was much more central.
 
Not a surprise if either team wins but that is a shockingly large vote gap, not sure if I am missing some obvious weakness from the tactics, but that is a brilliant team @NM and would have won my vote ahead of your opposition.
 
GodShaveTheQueen said:
Not a surprise if either team wins but that is a shockingly large vote gap, not sure if I am missing some obvious weakness from the tactics, but that is a brilliant team @NM and would have won my vote ahead of your opposition.
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Thanks. Yeah I expected a close game and was surprised at the margin.. Since I keep getting bounced in the first round, I'm going to go the conspiracy route and say there is a draft mafia that ensures the same guys win.. I'm looking at you @Gio @Edgar Allan Pillow @Pat_Mustard @Jim Beam @Physiocrat and several others..

In the words of Didier Drogba "It's a fecking disgrace!!" :D
 
NM said:
Since I keep getting bounced in the first round, I'm going to go the conspiracy route and say there is a draft mafia that ensures the same guys win.. I'm looking at you @Gio @Edgar Allan Pillow @Pat_Mustard @Jim Beam @Physiocrat and several others..
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Really appriciate the tag because if there is any corruption and agreement to feck someone over there is zero doubt I would be involved. Unfortunately, am very little involved in drafts for few months so that's not the case. Just ask @Šjor Bepo how good of AM have I been in this draft.

As a sidenote, think your team lacks a proper DM and Coluna preffered left channel. Ideally, you want more crossing danger from the right wing (better overlapper than Tassotti) and a better link up/foil for Ronaldo upfront. Since you already tag me :wenger: Otherwise, nice team. Don't give up.
 
NM said:
Thanks. Yeah I expected a close game and was surprised at the margin.. Since I keep getting bounced in the first round, I'm going to go the conspiracy route and say there is a draft mafia that ensures the same guys win.. I'm looking at you @Gio @Edgar Allan Pillow @Pat_Mustard @Jim Beam @Physiocrat and several others..

In the words of Didier Drogba "It's a fecking disgrace!!" :D
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I wasn't convinced of the midfield. I'm not 100% of Vieira at DM (but not a majot issue) but Coluna (he played inside left) was an attacking CM similar to Gerrard and McTominay so I don't think works with Iniesta.
 
NM said:
Thanks. Yeah I expected a close game and was surprised at the margin.. Since I keep getting bounced in the first round, I'm going to go the conspiracy route and say there is a draft mafia that ensures the same guys win.. I'm looking at you @Gio @Edgar Allan Pillow @Pat_Mustard @Jim Beam @Physiocrat and several others..

In the words of Didier Drogba "It's a fecking disgrace!!" :D
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Yeah surprised at the margin - I struggled to split the two teams tbh. You're packing more individual quality going forward, plus there are great synergies from Kopa and Fontaine. But Pat's defence and midfield base is well constructed. Suspect Vieira at the base of the midfield went down poorly, might have landed better as a 2-1 structure rather than a 1-2. I mean sometimes I think it's overblown as a tactical issue because any midfield trio quickly adapt to find the right shape for the game.
 
It's a mix of slightly off tactics and unfamiliar names. Coluna and Fontaine have stellar records on paper, but not really familiar on their actual playing style. That midfield felt a bit lightweight defensively and coupled with Baresi led defence of Pat's, it edged my vote.

Plus I have lost my fair share of R1 games to not plot against another. Happy to team up with you next draft so we can lost R1 together
 
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NM said:
Thanks. Yeah I expected a close game and was surprised at the margin.. Since I keep getting bounced in the first round, I'm going to go the conspiracy route and say there is a draft mafia that ensures the same guys win.. I'm looking at you @Gio @Edgar Allan Pillow @Pat_Mustard @Jim Beam @Physiocrat and several others..

In the words of Didier Drogba "It's a fecking disgrace!!" :D
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:lol: I know this is exactly what a mafia member would say, but there's no mafia that I'm aware of! I thought this would be really close either way. On a serious note, when I saw the teams with Vieira as the sole DM I knew I had a good chance of winning. With such a small number of regular voters, you do end up realising over time what wins and loses votes - that's not to say all draft forum conventional wisdom is necessarily correct, but it does exist, and it plays a big part in the results.
 
Midfield was my concern as well. I think a dedicated DM in there in place of Coluna would have worked out fine and allowed Vieira a more box-to-box role.

Pat's side is a bit dull and defensive, which is somewhat unusual by his standards. Baggio just about makes the difference and got him my vote
 
Himannv said:
Midfield was my concern as well. I think a dedicated DM in there in place of Coluna would have worked out fine and allowed Vieira a more box-to-box role.

Pat's side is a bit dull and defensive, which is somewhat unusual by his standards. Baggio just about makes the difference and got him my vote
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Aye, I've got to say it felt quite strange intentionally going for the dour, defensive approach during drafting, but I did enjoy putting together this team. Not sure what I'll do in the reinforcements as I could possibly change my approach completely to something possession-based as I've got Verratti on the bench.

On a sidenote, I've enjoyed watching more of Butragueno. Lovely player to watch with his pace, trickery and hustle.
 
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