Wild Long Range Shots & Aimless Crosses

Lentwood

Full Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2015
Messages
7,286
Location
West Didsbury, Manchester
Obviously given the timing, I am writing this out of frustration - however, this has been a massive bug-bear of mine for a while now and I cannot fathom why multiple high-calibre coaches have failed to fix such fundamentally basic issues.

Of course, as the thread title suggests, I am talking about the wild long range shot and aimless crosses that we resort to on a regular basis during games, particularly games against teams who set-up in a low-block.

I can't believe how many times in this game alone we have shot from 25-yards+. I have lost count of how mainly completely aimless crosses we have floated in to nobody in particular. This is just not a tactic that any other supposedly top-club uses now. You have to keep the ball, play in tight areas, move the ball from side-to-side, draw opponents out of position and create space.

The biggest problem is, this isn't just about a lack of quality, it's about poor fundamentals. You could argue the aimless crosses and wild shots are symptomatic of the lack of movement or plan in attack but I am sorry that doesn't excuse it. How are we ever going to break these teams down if our players are fundamentally averse to having possession in and around the opposition box? It comes down to fear. Not wanting the ball, not daring to try something difficult and so instead taking the 'kop-out- option over and over again.

Even worse, every single time we have one of these wild shots or float a ball over everybody and out for a goal-kick, it breaks-up the play, let's the opposition get a breather in, let's them get up the pitch and we have to start all over again with progressing the ball through midfield.

I could basically name-check every individual here...Fernandes, consistently shoots from crazy distances. Eriksen has started to get into the habit. Ronaldo...even Casemiro...I don't understand it. Similarly, how many times have Malacia and Dalot floated a ball in to absolutely nobody so far in this game alone? Bonkers!

Get the ball down, pass it to a team-mate! If I was the head coach, I'd completely ban aerial crosses in open play and ban shots from outside the penalty area. Slightly extreme but we have to learn! If I saw any player breaking the rule, I'd have that substitute board straight out and they would be hauled off.

Again...obviously this is borne out of frustration but I have NEVER understood this tacit acceptance of what is so obviously such a negative EV (expected value) tactic. We have expensive, technically-capable, supposedly high-quality players. If we're just going to rely on drifting crosses in from bad positions and taking pot-shots we might as well have signed Dwight McNeil and Chris Wood. It drives me absolutely bonkers, I feel completely exacerbated with it!

Ban the long-range shots, ban crossing from any position beyond the 18-yard line and ban aerial crosses. Make them play proper football in proper areas and if they can't do it, get them out the side!

EDIT | one minute into the 2nd half and Rashford ignores an overlap and blazes a wild shot over from 20yards...
 
Long shots are usually a result of frustration when the players couldn’t find any openings with their passing.

You are correct about aimless crosses though, like do they even look up to see if there’s any team mates in the box before crossing?!
 
Crosses have been very poor, yes. Neither our fullbacks nor our wingers seem to be able to find a good cross. Antony is okay, but can be better at it.
 
I was going to start a thread titled something like "What happened to our ability to produce a killer final ball?", but this thread will generate a similar dialogue. Going back to the Van Gaal days and even before that, we've consistently found it difficult to make incisive passes within the last third that lead to great chances on goal. We're reasonably successful in long balls that split and turn defenders, but against compacted defenses we've been shit under Moyes through the current day.

What I don't want to see is United becoming a crossing team so I'm particularly worried about our crosses being aimless, which they are, but I am worried about a historic inability to pick the locks against parked buses. I have no theory as to why this is the case, but it is the case that we find it nearly impossible to open up spaces for shots against lesser clubs who have no real option other than to sit back on us.
 
lex talionis said:
I was going to start a thread titled something like "What happened to our ability to produce a killer final ball?", but this thread will generate a similar dialogue. Going back to the Van Gaal days and even before that, we've consistently found it difficult to make incisive passes within the last third that lead to great chances on goal. We're reasonably successful in long balls that split and turn defenders, but against compacted defenses we've been shit under Moyes through the current day.

What I don't want to see is United becoming a crossing team so I'm particularly worried about our crosses being aimless, which they are, but I am worried about a historic inability to pick the locks against parked buses. I have no theory as to why this is the case, but it is the case that we find it nearly impossible to open up spaces for shots against lesser clubs who have no real option other than to sit back on us.
Click to expand...

I think it goes back to my point in the OP though. For too long, taking the easy option has been tacitly accepted by our coaches/managers. Opening up defences requires patience. It's why Pep teams mastered the art of recycling the ball from side-to-side, probing for space and drawing the opposition out.

These low percentage shots and crosses break-up our attacks when we have worked hard to get up the pitch. We might play 10 good little incisive passes and then someone like Fernandes will ruin the whole move by blasting an aimless shot into a defenders backside from 30-yards. Or, we'll keep the ball for 60-seconds and then someone (Malacia and Dalot last night) will panic, drift an aimless cross in from an impossible position, it drifts harmlessly over everybody and the opposition can reset and get up the pitch.

Again, I know it's extreme but I would outright ban-.

*any shots from 25-yards+
* any crosses that are not delivered from within the 18-yards from the touchline to the edge of the penalty area

Then you have to stick to that and almost use Pavlovian Conditioning to get the players into good habits. If someone breaks the rules, they are off. No 'if's', no 'but's. Even if they put one into the top corner from 35-yards, doesn't matter, we shouldn't be 'outcome-orientated'. Get them into good habits. You MUST keep the ball on the floor, you must pass and move.
 
Dominant said:
Long shots are usually a result of frustration when the players couldn’t find any openings with their passing.

You are correct about aimless crosses though, like do they even look up to see if there’s any team mates in the box before crossing?!
Click to expand...

Say this to Moyes, on his Century Cross in 1 game. How many of them were aimless?
 
We aren't good at playing through teams and hence we resort to desperate measures to do 'something'
 
You're in front of the goal and you keep fecking passing it, shoot!
You're nowhere near the goal and you keep fecking shooting it, pass!

Ten Hag looking up to the sky where the sun is Ole's face, asking "How am I doing boss?"
 
We also try to play a "kiiler" ball to often - lost count how many times midfielders tried to put a through pass to a forward at the edge of the box when there were 8-10 defenders marking or at least behind the ball. The one over the top (a bruno "speciality") also drives me bonkers: we haven't got it right for months...
 
Agree and this is part of a wider, long term picture of our players just not doing the fundamentals.

City's second goal(I think) came as a result of a neeess floaty ball into the box from Eriksen.

The best teams make it look easy because they do the basics really well.

Good first touch, good decision making, ability to change direction, consistent short passing game. These things go a very long way in football.

If you can't do them well you end up doing what the Lentwood is talking about here.
 
We don't have the technical players who can play in tight areas though.
 
It's what happens when you have a bunch of players with poor footballing intellgience. Rashford, Bruno, Dalot, Fred, Shaw, McT etc.. they lack brains and awareness on the pitch.
 
I didn't see many wild long range shots except in yesterday's game. City, Arsenal takes more shots from outside the box and percentage wise, City, Arsenal, ManUtd all are in same range.
 
I know why the long shots happen, because we're so bad at breaking down a low block, they just try to smash one in hoping the opposition will make more room after that.

But the crossing is honestly bizarre. We rarely cross when players are making runs into the box so that they can be met at momentum with the pace we have up front. It's a more 'ah, there's 4 in the box, so now if I lob it in, someone will do something with it, right?'. It's incredibly frustrating.

There's a similar problem with wingbacks and midfielders in deep positions (who aren't Eriksen). You're playing a defense that is going to back up quick, Sancho is making run after run into space, not a single one of them will look up to aerially play it through. The plan instead is to try to break down a settled low block instead of trying to get them back peddling early.
 
I think if you dropped Bruno for Eriksen and played Mctom with Casemiro you would probably cut a lot of these aimless long shots and crosses from deep out. When it comes off with Bruno it looks good, but how often does it come off? He wastes a lot of our possession with 'Hollywood' balls in a lot of games.
 
The Siege said:
But the crossing is honestly bizarre. We rarely cross when players are making runs into the box so that they can be met at momentum with the pace we have up front. It's a more 'ah, there's 4 in the box, so now if I lob it in, someone will do something with it, right?'.
Click to expand...

This is the key part for me. There's nothing wrong with crossing the ball. I am sure statistically-speaking it's a great method of scoring goals. The key though of course is having a plan and executing it.

Poor footballing sides worked out that for them, long, deep crosses into the back post are plus EV because they lack the technical skills to progress the ball through midfield, so peppering the box with crosses that are hard to clear and winning the second balls is a good tactic.

Likewise, City have mastered the underlapping run and the low-cross/cut-back. Its pass, pass, pass, shift the opposition, create an overload in a wide area, underlapping run, cut-back...goal after goal

Our crosses are nothing. Aimless, floaty crosses to nobody in particular that surrender possession cheaply
 
Oddly enough, I think we don't hit enough long range shots. PSG win came from this tactic and peak Lampard made a career of shooting from 25 yards and knicking a deflection. Perfectly valid approach to when teams have 10 men behind the ball.

The crossing I agree is laughable poor however
 
Antony will increase our long shot count and I'm okay with it. He's a good striker of the ball. The rest is mainly a Bruno problem.
 
Lentwood said:
I think it goes back to my point in the OP though. For too long, taking the easy option has been tacitly accepted by our coaches/managers. Opening up defences requires patience. It's why Pep teams mastered the art of recycling the ball from side-to-side, probing for space and drawing the opposition out.

These low percentage shots and crosses break-up our attacks when we have worked hard to get up the pitch. We might play 10 good little incisive passes and then someone like Fernandes will ruin the whole move by blasting an aimless shot into a defenders backside from 30-yards. Or, we'll keep the ball for 60-seconds and then someone (Malacia and Dalot last night) will panic, drift an aimless cross in from an impossible position, it drifts harmlessly over everybody and the opposition can reset and get up the pitch.

Again, I know it's extreme but I would outright ban-.

*any shots from 25-yards+
* any crosses that are not delivered from within the 18-yards from the touchline to the edge of the penalty area

Then you have to stick to that and almost use Pavlovian Conditioning to get the players into good habits. If someone breaks the rules, they are off. No 'if's', no 'but's. Even if they put one into the top corner from 35-yards, doesn't matter, we shouldn't be 'outcome-orientated'. Get them into good habits. You MUST keep the ball on the floor, you must pass and move.
Click to expand...

Opening up defenses requires patience without question, but it also requires understanding between the players. In the final third when Player A passes to player B, for whatever reason we never see United Players A or C moving without the ball to give Player C two passing options to consider. A passes the ball to B and suddenly B is trapped without a good option other than an aimless ball or a hopeless shot. I get why this was the case under Moyes (because he's little more than a hoofball manager) but that this was the case under Van Gaal and Mourinho boggled the mind. Under Ole, we were a pure counterattacking/moments-of-genius side and we had some success with it before it all fell apart, but we really haven't seen a coherent tactical approach in the final third under ETH. Hopefully it comes together soon but we're still too reliant on moments of genius, especially on counterattacks.

Shots from further than 25 yards are virtually hopeless, so scrap that shit unless it's a situation where the keeper is caught out of position. As for crosses, it seems to me -- and I could be very wrong about this -- that modern defenders (even at clubs like Omonia) are better equipped to defend crosses than defenders in the 80s and 90s. Or perhaps crossing and scoring off balls in the air are skills that are not as emphasized today as they were 30-40 years ago. Either way, there's little to be gained to spending a lot of training on a crossing game. Today's top players want to play the ball on the ground.
 
Our crossing is scandalous. Not even Haaland would be scoring with these deliveries
 
I've been having this exact same conversation with my mate for years, you don't see any other team in the league keep repeating the same mistakes over and over and over again in posession, it's like no matter which players we bring in, or who the coach is, they try the same old pointless floaty crosses to nobody, like it's worked so well for us in the past,
I'm starting to think that it's more about responsibility, and there's a huge problem in the club around pressure and wanting to pass responsibility to somebody else, i.e "if i just get rid of it into a decent area... that's my job done, not my problem anymore" fundamentally they don't work as a team, and i just hope we'll see the end of that under Ten Hag, here's hoping he weeds out anyone not capable of doing what he's asking, because Ajax didn't play like this so something is not right.. get some better quality players in and keep the ball on the ground ffs
 
big_jeffstar said:
I've been having this exact same conversation with my mate for years, you don't see any other team in the league keep repeating the same mistakes over and over and over again in posession, it's like no matter which players we bring in, or who the coach is, they try the same old pointless floaty crosses to nobody, like it's worked so well for us in the past,
I'm starting to think that it's more about responsibility, and there's a huge problem in the club around pressure and wanting to pass responsibility to somebody else, i.e "if i just get rid of it into a decent area... that's my job done, not my problem anymore" fundamentally they don't work as a team, and i just hope we'll see the end of that under Ten Hag, here's hoping he weeds out anyone not capable of doing what he's asking, because Ajax didn't play like this so something is not right.. get some better quality players in and keep the ball on the ground ffs
Click to expand...

Like I said in the OP, I think ETH needs to be really militant with it and substitute players who take 'kop-out' decisions in possession. They will never learn if there aren't some kind of repercussions for playing lazy/cowardly football
 
Statistically we rank pretty much in the middle when it comes to shooting from outside the box so far in our league games. Data doesn't seem to back up what you're seeing when it comes to that.

Shots per 90 stats:
wInUZsY.png


Edit: Sorting everything by each column we're 8th or 9th in all areas so it doesn't look like where we're shooting from stands out in particular at all. It's more that we could do with creating more opportunities to shoot full stop.
x6L8wsW.png

59xkRa1.png

sShugdW.png
 
Last edited:
Chipper said:
Statistically we rank pretty much in the middle when it comes to shooting from outside the box so far in our league games. Data doesn't seem to back up what you're seeing when it comes to that.

Shots per 90 stats:
wInUZsY.png
Click to expand...

Yeah but as ever with Data it should only be used as a guide.

Couple of counter-arguments immediately spring to mind...

1) "Shots outside the box" is very broad. I don't have a problem specifically with shots from outside the box, which is what those stats you shared are based on. Two out of our three goals on Thursday came from just outside the area but both were great chances to shoot from good positions, just outside the box and fairly central. No issues with that. It's the wild 30-yard efforts or players who never score from that distance (i.e. Fred) taking pointless shots.

2) The likes of City and Arsenal, who are above us in that table, both have significantly more shots in total. So that also needs to be factored in.
 
Lentwood said:
The likes of City and Arsenal, who are above us in that table, both have significantly more shots in total. So that also needs to be factored in.
Click to expand...

If you calculate the percentage, all 3 clubs are in same range, around 32-33% of total shots are from outside the box.
 
roonster09 said:
If you calculate the percentage, all 3 clubs are in same range, around 32-33% of total shots are from outside the box.
Click to expand...

We can argue until the cows come home about how relevant that Data is in isolation but United have a problem with breaking down low-blocks and Arsenal and City do not.

That Data shows that a significant number of our rivals are having an average of roughly 50% more shots than us per game. There's an issue with our build-up play and we haven't even got into discussing the aimless crosses yet.

Also, as I said, the definition is too broad. A shot from outsise the area could be 19-yards out and central or 35-yards on the half volley. Significantly different. I'd want to see the xG of our shots. I would bet that we would take far more 'low xG' shots than some of those other sides.
 
Lentwood said:
We can argue until the cows come home about how relevant that Data is in isolation but United have a problem with breaking down low-blocks and Arsenal and City do not.

That Data shows that a significant number of our rivals are having an average of roughly 50% more shots than us per game. There's an issue with our build-up play and we haven't even got into discussing the aimless crosses yet.

Also, as I said, the definition is too broad. A shot from outsise the area could be 19-yards out and central or 35-yards on the half volley. Significantly different. I'd want to see the xG of our shots. I would bet that we would take far more 'low xG' shots than some of those other sides.
Click to expand...

With all due respect, all this is not relevant to my post.

My post was very clear and I even quoted the part of the post I'm replying to. It has nothing to do with breaking low blocks, crosses or how difficult was the shot from outside the box.
 
Lentwood said:
want to see the xG of our shots. I would bet that we would take far more 'low xG' shots than some of those other sides.
Click to expand...

Not sure about outside the box.
Non penalty xG/shot

ManUtd - 0.11
Liverpool -0.11
City - 0.11
Arsenal -0.11
Spurs -0.1
Chelsea - 0.08

Only team with better xg/shot is Leeds with 0.12.

If you take shot on target %, which is on target/total shots, we are 3rd with 38%, with only palace and Spurs ahead of us
 
Be careful what you wish for. LvG pretty much did exactly what you suggested and we used to spend 90 minutes aimlessly recycling the ball waiting for an opening. Do you remember that dreadful game where we had something like 68% possession and didn’t have a shot of any description until the 86th minute. Rather than stopping us taking long shots and crosses, EtH should probably focus on getting us practicing them so we’re better at them.

And also some tight control, passing and one twos. Not sure whether I’m just having a blank, but I rarely see us do the whole give and go thing in tight areas successfully, something clubs like city do extremely well
 
Lentwood said:
We can argue until the cows come home about how relevant that Data is in isolation but United have a problem with breaking down low-blocks and Arsenal and City do not.

That Data shows that a significant number of our rivals are having an average of roughly 50% more shots than us per game. There's an issue with our build-up play and we haven't even got into discussing the aimless crosses yet.

Also, as I said, the definition is too broad. A shot from outsise the area could be 19-yards out and central or 35-yards on the half volley. Significantly different. I'd want to see the xG of our shots. I would bet that we would take far more 'low xG' shots than some of those other sides.
Click to expand...

I haven't got exact data as I'm not subbed up to all the expensive services nor have I got the inclination to sift through everything right now so fair enough, what I posted isn't going to something anyone can bank on. It would be making some assumptions and United could well be an outlier in that our shots from outside the box are more from the 35 yard range compared to a lot of other teams.

Without that data I would say we don't look particularly out of the ordinary and it's probably going to be more about the issue of our rivals having that 50% more shots per game but obviously can't say for certain. If we could just have 2 more shots from outside, 2 more from inside the box, and 1 more from the 6 yard box per game we'd likely be doing very well even if all our outside the box shots were actually taken from further out than our rivals. Much easier said than done though!

While I can't get data for that, I can grab FBref's Xg per 90 minutes, but it's not broken down by ranges. Yet again we're 8th, we seem to like that position when it comes to this stuff I'm finding.
nLtniJk.png


Edit: @roonster09 has way better data than me!
 
roonster09 said:
Not sure about outside the box.
Non penalty xG/shot

ManUtd - 0.11
Liverpool -0.11
City - 0.11
Arsenal -0.11
Spurs -0.1
Chelsea - 0.08

Only team with better xg/shot is Leeds with 0.12.

If you take shot on target %, which is on target/total shots, we are 3rd with 38%, with only palace and Spurs ahead of us
Click to expand...

So let me ask you then, what do you think our issue is?

Long shots has always been a bug-bear of mine. I hate them, I think they are a real waste of the ball. The Data doesn't show we're a statistical outlier but its still all ultimately comes down to opinion when you consider when and if a shot is worth taking.

Plus, we're focusing here on one detail. The point of my post was that we take-on too many low percentage plays (long shots and aerial crosses from deep to the back-post). I could also have said "Hollywood passess".

Basically, when we have possession, we waste it far, far too easily. Whether that's by having pointless shots, throwing in hopeful crosses or trying impossible passes.

Maybe the long-shots aren't actually causing us a problem (but I still don't ever see the argument for taking a 0.01xg shot) but I think the fact remains we struggle against low-blocks and we have done for a long time. There must be a tactical reason for this because we don't have "bad" players.
 
Was just digging for crossing stats, don't know where I could find them but apparently we actually have the fewest crosses per 90 so far according to this F365 article published this week.

Manchester United – fewest crosses per 90 (7.71)
Perhaps due to not playing with a proper No.9, their stunted full-backs, or both, but it’s clear Erik ten Hag doesn’t value getting the ball in the mixer. Last season they made 11.2 crosses per 90.
Click to expand...
 
Chipper said:
Was just digging for crossing stats, don't know where I could find them but apparently we actually have the fewest crosses per 90 so far according to this F365 article published this week.
Click to expand...

Right...and this is this forum in a nutshell and is the argument that occurs on every single thread, whether that's player-related or tactical. Data vs the eye-test.

Someone will express an opinion based on watching our games and someone else will come up with Data that supposedly contradicts or disproves that idea.

Now, I am not having a go at you personally, it's great that we have the Data and it's absolutely a relevant part of the picture...but the problem I have with most of the Data folk is a) that they are too reliant on it and b) that they never suggest an answer i.e. 'if the problem isn't that we waste our possession with pointless shots/crosses/Hollywood passes then what is the problem?

I think 95% of the forum will agree we struggle to create enough chances in games against teams who sit deep. My observation, having watched us regularly for 30 years is that this team surrenders/turns over possession far too readily. There are certainly other factors but I feel our players take the easy option too often.

If you have a different opinion, that's great, but I'll always remain sceptical of statistics when I sit and watch week-in, week-out and see the same problems...50-yard passes to nobody in particular, low xG shots from improbable areas and floaty, aimless crosses
 
Lentwood said:
So let me ask you then, what do you think our issue is?

Long shots has always been a bug-bear of mine. I hate them, I think they are a real waste of the ball. The Data doesn't show we're a statistical outlier but its still all ultimately comes down to opinion when you consider when and if a shot is worth taking.

Plus, we're focusing here on one detail. The point of my post was that we take-on too many low percentage plays (long shots and aerial crosses from deep to the back-post). I could also have said "Hollywood passess".

Basically, when we have possession, we waste it far, far too easily. Whether that's by having pointless shots, throwing in hopeful crosses or trying impossible passes.

Maybe the long-shots aren't actually causing us a problem (but I still don't ever see the argument for taking a 0.01xg shot) but I think the fact remains we struggle against low-blocks and we have done for a long time. There must be a tactical reason for this because we don't have "bad" players.
Click to expand...

There are many issues, one thing is movement and lack of cut backs to create goal scoring chances. There has been good improvement this season but still we are lacking big time compared to other big clubs.

Other thing is lack of foal point in the attack, any pass made to CF is like hitting the wall. Anyways all these are posted by multiple posters in many threads.

Might be wrong but I always felt this thread was created because of last game which really pissed me off too, with so many long shots.
 
BuzzKillington said:
Be careful what you wish for. LvG pretty much did exactly what you suggested and we used to spend 90 minutes aimlessly recycling the ball waiting for an opening. Do you remember that dreadful game where we had something like 68% possession and didn’t have a shot of any description until the 86th minute. Rather than stopping us taking long shots and crosses, EtH should probably focus on getting us practicing them so we’re better at them.

And also some tight control, passing and one twos. Not sure whether I’m just having a blank, but I rarely see us do the whole give and go thing in tight areas successfully, something clubs like city do extremely well
Click to expand...
Yes. We need to improve on crosses. I think we are better at them too, btw, from the right just by virtue of Antony playing there. But the coordination and sight recognition by the players of those types of plays could make this team a lot better for sure.

And the give and goes in particular could improve too. Dalot & Antony should be killing teams on the edge with that, as all Antony needs is a little screening and chaos around him for his ball handling to be a threat. And I say that meaning he can improve a lot in his ability to try defenders. Antony for the most part has been shy in his duel selection. But yes he and Dalot should be reading and reacting better off each other by now and they're not the only ones.
 
roonster09 said:
There are many issues, one thing is movement and lack of cut backs to create goal scoring chances. There has been good improvement this season but still we are lacking big time compared to other big clubs.

Other thing is lack of foal point in the attack, any pass made to CF is like hitting the wall. Anyways all these are posted by multiple posters in many threads.

Might be wrong but I always felt this thread was created because of last game which really pissed me off too, with so many long shots.
Click to expand...

You're not wrong I say as much in the OP. It was written at half-time in the Nicosia game and to be fair, in the 2nd-half, we drastically reduced the number of aimless crosses.

I think what we are seeing at the moment is a transition. I think it's fairly clear that (like me!) ETH isn't a huge fan of long-shots or non-cutback crosses. When we are playing well, like yesterday, we see very few of them. I think what we see sometimes is the team reverting to type when things are not going our way and falling back into bad habits.

Obviously it will take time for them to really get used to ETHs style, especially having had so many different managers/coaches recently but our ball retention and attacking play seems to be trending in the right direction for the most part
 
You must log in or register to reply here.