Why the defence is hurting us

TheReligion

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I’ll start by saying there are plenty of things to question EtH for currently which I fully agree with. I think he should get more time but I’m not blinded by him nor do I think he’s untouchable.

What I wanted to discuss is why I feel the absence of Shaw and Martinez is seriously hindering the team in terms of results but also style of play.

Firstly both players are statistically two of our most press resistant and progressive passers. It’s clear EtH needs this to implement his style from the back and this was evidenced by Shaw replacing Martinez last season whilst Maguire and Lindelof sat on the bench.

Beating the press, accurate forward passing the break the lines and looking for quick turnovers (then playing forward quickly) are all basics in the philosophy both in and out of possession. Not doing this from the back forces the midfielders to drop deeper to get the ball, the forwards to come deeper to get the ball and the opposition to push up the field, or in some cases sit in and leave no space behind.

When the opposition press up we can still find some joy running in behind (see Galatasary in the CL) but we will continue to remain frail at the back due to the lack of quality meaning we are always susceptible to conceding.

I think it was obvious EtH wanted to invest in a new CB in the summer but couldn’t. He doesn’t trust Lindelof and Maguire nor can either effectively play in his system. This isn’t a coaching issue they just can’t do it.

Finally I have no doubt that these issues have also heavily impacted on Casemiro. He’s having to drop deeper to get on the ball when he’s actually better higher up the pitch winning back the ball and moving it forward quickly.

Side to side crab like football kills everything and when that’s what you have to play out with I think it’s clear why the deck of cards keeps collapsing each week.
 
Yep. In an age where attacking starts with defence, the absence of key players in said defence is often understated.

I’d add AWB to that as well because, despite the popular myth, he’s good on the ball and his retention is excellent. This is often confused with poor crossing / decision making, which he does indeed have.
 
Spaghetti said:
Yep. In an age where attacking starts with defence, the absence of key players in said defence is often understated.

I’d add AWB to that as well because, despite the popular myth, he’s good on the ball and his retention is excellent. This is often confused with poor crossing / decision making, which he does indeed have.
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I’m not saying the above absolutely absolves EtH from any criticism but I do think he’s got his hands tied a bit currently.
 
TheReligion said:
I’ll start by saying there are plenty of things to question EtH for currently which I fully agree with. I think he should get more time but I’m not blinded by him nor do I think he’s untouchable.

What I wanted to discuss is why I feel the absence of Shaw and Martinez is seriously hindering the team in terms of results but also style of play.

Firstly both players are statistically two of our most press resistant and progressive passers. It’s clear EtH needs this to implement his style from the back and this was evidenced by Shaw replacing Martinez last season whilst Maguire and Lindelof sat on the bench.

Beating the press, accurate forward passing the break the lines and looking for quick turnovers (then playing forward quickly) are all basics in the philosophy both in and out of possession. Not doing this from the back forces the midfielders to drop deeper to get the ball, the forwards to come deeper to get the ball and the opposition to push up the field, or in some cases sit in and leave no space behind.

When the opposition press up we can still find some joy running in behind (see Galatasary in the CL) but we will continue to remain frail at the back due to the lack of quality meaning we are always susceptible to conceding.

I think it was obvious EtH wanted to invest in a new CB in the summer but couldn’t. He doesn’t trust Lindelof and Maguire nor can either effectively play in his system. This isn’t a coaching issue they just can’t do it.

Finally I have no doubt that these issues have also heavily impacted on Casemiro. He’s having to drop deeper to get on the ball when he’s actually better higher up the pitch winning back the ball and moving it forward quickly.

Side to side crab like football kills everything and when that’s what you have to play out with I think it’s clear why the deck of cards keeps collapsing each week.
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The whole set up massively relies on Martinez and Shaw playmaking skills and progressing the ball through the thirds. Our midfield (unless Eriksen plays there) isn't asked to progress the ball - in fact "midfield" is usually just one guy standing in Central areas, easily marked and effectively taken out of the game.

I don't like this setup, it's easy to defend against as teams don't actually press out defenders and keeper, they let them have the ball and mark everyone else. That is very effective against us and results in a lot of turnovers as we play direct football.

That said, THE problem is that even with those two players out (Martinez and Shaw) who were key for this system to work, the playmaking burden is still on our defence. We have not adjusted one bit, just keep doing the same things (things that have not once proven to be effective this season), and expect... I don't know what exactly.

Our problems don't end on midfield, but they definitely start there.
 
I agree on the defence - the next two players in line for central defence just dont play the same way which hinders us a bit and also hurt Onana and our domination too. They’re remains of old managers so it’s actually a DoF’s job to get right. Same with Amrabat. Casemiro should probably be used in the Eriksen role while we pursuit someone to sit back.

Having said that, Ten Hag has imploded in his attacking tactics too. At his beginning we played great football and way quicker/more direct, now we pass it around too slowly and rely on individual brilliance.
 
Borys said:
The whole set up massively relies on Martinez and Shaw playmaking skills and progressing the ball through the thirds. Our midfield (unless Eriksen plays there) isn't asked to progress the ball - in fact "midfield" is usually just one guy standing in Central areas, easily marked and effectively taken out of the game.

I don't like this setup, it's easy to defend against as teams don't actually press out defenders and keeper, they let them have the ball and mark everyone else. That is very effective against us and results in a lot of turnovers as we play direct football.

That said, THE problem is that even with those two players out (Martinez and Shaw) who were key for this system to work, the playmaking burden is still on our defence. We have not adjusted one bit, just keep doing the same things (things that have not once proven to be effective this season), and expect... I don't know what exactly.

Our problems don't end on midfield, but they definitely start there.
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That would be my issue yes. From memory though EtH is quite stubborn and likely doesn’t want to change. This could be his undoing.

ROFLUTION said:
I agree on the defence - the next two players in line for central defence just dont play the same way which hinders us a bit and also hurt Onana and our domination too. They’re remains of old managers so it’s actually a DoF’s job to get right. Same with Amrabat. Casemiro should probably be used in the Eriksen role while we pursuit someone to sit back.

Having said that, Ten Hag has imploded in his attacking tactics too. At his beginning we played great football and way quicker/more direct, now we pass it around too slowly and rely on individual brilliance.
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I also agree with the forwards. I mean I do think Rashford’s form can be linked to having no left back/absence of Shaw. You can also raise the Antony issue and absence in terms of trying to build up some cohesion.
 
TheReligion said:
That would be my issue yes. From memory though EtH is quite stubborn and likely doesn’t want to change. This could be his undoing.
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He certainly is. Whether that is good or bad, time will tell.

My question to manager is what is the plan to get the ball forward. Because if we are trying to copy City/Arsenal setup that has been mentioned many times here, then we need players dropping deeper to receive the ball, make an angle for a pass and drag players out of position. Brighton is probably the best team that plays this game, from what I've seen they also play quite vertical football but all forwards and midfielders are involved in buildup play. In current United, it just seems like attacking formation is completely detached from defense formation and there's one guy standing in the middle (set up to fail). Lindelof and Maguire are OK passers, they just have no passing options.

We have some good players in midfield now and we can adjust while Martinez and Shaw are out. I've not seen this yet from ETH.
 
The defence has settled a bit now, in 3 out of the last 4 league games we’ve conceded from 2 set plays and a pen. Even a depleted back line needs time to gel together.
What hammers this home is the amount of times we conceded straight after scoring, it’s as if the defence knows it’s their time to play well now since the attack did their job and they immediately shit the bed.
We are playing a lot better without Martinez playing half injured while on pain killers and that isn’t a slight on Martinez
 
I agree.

However I will say I've noticed when Martinez has played, he hasn't been doing those progressive passes through the lines like he was last season.
 
The very clear knock on is Rashford's form as well. Take out our best LB and LCB and is it a surprise Rashford's form has nosedived.

I still think the midfield is the bigger issue though, until that is sorted out we will keep seeing lots of long balls with low % success rates that teams find easy to defend. Martinez is very important to how we want to play as well because of his ability on the ball, things that seem very simple like first time passes, pass speed and, this sadly is not an exaggeration, passing the ball in front of a player to run onto rather than at them or behind them you always get with him/Shaw but not always with Varane, AWB and Dalot and it all adds up.
 
We're missing Shaw most significantly, but the effect of Martinez is minimal on our attack. Neither are an excuse for the terrible football we are seeing. Other teams play fine with less technical CBs than Martinez.

The attack has been poor for most of this year, it's not a new thing because a couple of defenders are missing.
 
This just feels like more excuses. Yes having our entire back four injured is quite the pain but it still doesn’t excuse the god awful attacking football we’ve been served up for the majority of Ten Hag’s tenure.

If our so called game plan is so reliant on the likes of Shaw and Martinez thats just poor planning from the manager, despite that our attacking players still look like strangers playing together even with our back four fit anyway.
 
I find the notion this isn’t accurate as Shaw played two games this season and Martinez four a little short sighted.

Martinez was clearly injured and has had to have more surgery.
 
It seems very obvious to me that our attack has also not been functioning well, for reasons that have nothing to do with our defence. Accommodating a new, young, raw striker. Antony out for a while and never been very productive. Rashford having one of his slumps. Bruno playing poorly as well.

Midfield is also an obvious problem. Casemiro’s been awful. McT his usual anonymous self. Our midfield is not protecting the defence well enough and conceding possession far too easily.

So we can conclude that we have obvious issues in defence, midfield and attack. Which would make it very optimistic to think that a couple of defensive absentees are the primary reason for our struggles this season.

At least we’ve no issues with our goalkeeper. Oh wait…
 
TheReligion said:
I find the notion this isn’t accurate as Shaw played two games this season and Martinez four a little short sighted.

Martinez was clearly injured and has had to have more surgery.
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A blind man could tell you that he was playing within himself this season, clearly he had an unconscious feeling that something wasn’t right
 
My own thoughts - the whole team are playing like strangers at times. Worse teams than us appear to have an identity and purpose. Where’s ours? That’s a coaching issue. Whether the players are listening or don’t believe it it; or whether he can’t get his ideas across are a whole different conversation.

but in terms of defence, Fergie used to say you build a solid defence first which will allow you to attack freely. Is ours solid?
 
golden_blunder said:
My own thoughts - the whole team are playing like strangers at times. Worse teams than us appear to have an identity and purpose. Where’s ours? That’s a coaching issue. Whether the players are listening or don’t believe it it; or whether he can’t get his ideas across are a whole different conversation.

but in terms of defence, Fergie used to say you build a solid defence first which will allow you to attack freely. Is ours solid?
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It's been a coaching issue for over 10 years, surely every coach that's come through the door can't be poor. Ajax had a long term identity, Mourinho had just won a title with Chelsea, LVG's teams had an identity. So why does it all fall apart after a year or less at United and we start playing like strangers?

One thing that has remained consistent is outlandish long term injury's to key players disrupting the manager from starting his best 11, and a reckless and aimless transfer structure absent of a competent DOF.
 
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Resorting to a makeshift back line obviously hurts us defensively, as did the dubious decision to downgrade our shot stopping capabilities at keeper. We can only hope to muddle through until injuries are overcome and our new keeper grows into the job.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Shaw played in our first two games of the season. Martinez in our first four. I don’t remember us starting the season looking any more convincing than we’ve looked in most recent fixtures.
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Martinez was probably still injured, we actually played alright in the first half of the Spurs game. We'd probably have seen better performances against the likes of Burnley, Sheffield United, Galatasary and Palace with them in the team.
 
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