Who's brave enough to question SAF's tactics?

BHManUNut

Guest
Apparently, if you're a 'REAL' United fan you have to put up or shut up because SAF has been the most resp[ected manager for Manchester United since Matt Busby, and that he cannot make mistakes or at least if you critisize (no matter how constructuve) you should be shunned by every other United fan donning red shaded spectacles.

Who is going to be brave enough to say that the players do not believe in the 4-5-1 system? Who will be brave enough to say that SAF got it wrong on the night and that for the most part of this season, United have actually in fact underperformed. And that this being the case, is it a failing of SAF this season that he has not been able to motivate the players enough that they can confidently overturn a first leg 2-2 scoreline to reach the final of the ECL. Or that once again we have not beaten the Scouse in three attempts this season that we have been beaten at home by Bolton, Middlesborough, Chelsea et al.

Who is brave enough to say that the signing of JSV has been an unmitigated failure? A player who was the preverbial dogs bollox at Parma and still is for his country but cannot seem to come to terms with being more the dogs testicles behind the real dogs bollox (Roy Keane) in a team of the standing of Manchester United.

Who is brave enough to address these issues?
 
1. Veron had a stint at Lazio between Parma and United. ;) :p

Seriously though, we wasted quite a few points experimenting with Scholes up front at the beginning of the season. My view is that we should stick with a 4-4-2 for the entire year. As for Veron, I hope we keep him since our midfielders aren't exactly all healthy all the time. Having Veron and Butt would be a good insurance policy.
 
Originally posted by Raoul:
<strong>1. Veron had a stint at Lazio between Parma and United. ;) :p
.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yes, but he was hardly the main man at Lazio now was he?
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by BHManUNut:
<strong>

Yes, but he was hardly the main man at Lazio now was he?</strong><hr></blockquote>

:confused: I thought he was. Was their best midfielder anyways (with Nedved). He's not the main man at United either. Not sure I understand your point. <img src="graemlins/nervous.gif" border="0" alt="[Nervous]" />
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by BHManUNut:
<strong>Who is brave enough to address these issues?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Just about every football writer out there! If Fergie reads the papers he'll be all too aware of the various shortcomings this season.
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by Raoul:
<strong>

:confused: I thought he was. Was their best midfielder anyways (with Nedved). He's not the main man at United either. Not sure I understand your point. <img src="graemlins/nervous.gif" border="0" alt="[Nervous]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

Not really, in any case that is perifery to my point. The point is that I feel unless Seba is central to the team i.e. where Roy Keane is, he is and has been half the player we all know he is. There is not dispute that the man is pure class, but unless he happens to be the main man in the team e.g. against Deportivo, he underperforms. Maybe he can't stand that Roy Keane is the boss on the pitch.

It is nothing to do with where Veron has played because he has played in every bloody position in midfield to behind the front man and it hasn't worked, I'm just trying to find out why I suppose... <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by cheeky munkee:
<strong>

Just about every football writer out there! If Fergie reads the papers he'll be all too aware of the various shortcomings this season.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Living up to our name now are we (if in fact that is your REAL name!). But the question as it is on this message board/forum by default refers to the RED IS ALL THAT MATTERS EVEN IF MY KIDS ARE BURNING IN THE HOUSE ON SATURDAY AFTERNOON bunch not the muppets in the Sun and the Star and the Mirror etc. who blow hotter and colder than the miday sun in the Serengeti to a Polar Bears arse in the snow.

I think the points are fair ones to make in the present climate,... just wondering if anyone agrees really.
Click to expand...
 
Let me get this right:

1) You all want to go back to 4-4-2 (if anything to have OGS starting)

2) The only feasible option is for Veron to replace Scholes there.

3) Other than that, you want him to be a backup in case anyone gets injured or SAF wants to try 4-5-1 every now and then (and you will slate him and Veron if it goes wrong).

Isn't 28m pounds badly spent in that scheme of things? Wouldn't we be better off spending that kind of money on a reliable yet cheaper backup for midfield and a good defender?

Do you think Veron is really willing to sit on the bench waiting for someone to get injured?

I don't :rolleyes:
 
BHManUNut:
Apparently, if you're a 'REAL' United fan you have to put up or shut up because SAF has been the most resp[ected manager for Manchester United since Matt Busby, and that he cannot make mistakes or at least if you critisize (no matter how constructuve) you should be shunned by every other United fan donning red shaded spectacles.If your going to criticise SAF you have to be able remember the times he got it riht too, Fergie has to make decisions and everyones not going to agree with them. Playing 4411 for example was slaughtered after certain matches but then when it worked well in certain matches no one seemed to notice that it was used.

Who is going to be brave enough to say that the players do not believe in the 4-5-1 system? Who will be brave enough to say that SAF got it wrong on the night and that for the most part of this season, United have actually in fact underperformed. And that this being the case, is it a failing of SAF this season that he has not been able to motivate the players enough that they can confidently overturn a first leg 2-2 scoreline to reach the final of the ECL. Or that once again we have not beaten the Scouse in three attempts this season that we have been beaten at home by Bolton, Middlesborough, Chelsea et al.
I couldnt give a fuch that the scouse beat us ttwice this season, had we won the laegue like last season it mattered little in the end. we got beaten at home by certain teams, would you have been happier had we lost to Spurs, Chelsea, Bor away?
Who is brave enough to say that the signing of JSV has been an unmitigated failure? A player who was the preverbial dogs bollox at Parma and still is for his country but cannot seem to come to terms with being more the dogs testicles behind the real dogs bollox (Roy Keane) in a team of the standing of Manchester United.Hell be a legend at Man Utd, the press have turned on him with the WC in mind, over the course of the season he hasnt performed much worse than Giggs, Beckham or Scholes, the only one to outhsine him as he did the whole league was Keano.

Who is brave enough to address these issues?
You can adress them all you want but remember,

everyone was delighted that we signed Veron, if he was a flop (which is isnt) then we were all wrong.
Fergies tactics shouldnt be questioned, he has to tinket with things to get them to work, remember if we dont win the league it will be by the odd point and we were an away goal from the CL final.
We were that close to a season almost as good as 99. In 99 the league went down to the final day and the CL was won with a bit of good fortune, theirs a thin line between succes and failure.

We were/are as close to succes this season as we were to failure in 1999.

<hr></blockquote>
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by BHManUNut:
<strong>I think the points are fair ones to make in the present climate,... just wondering if anyone agrees really.</strong><hr></blockquote>

i dont and i dont agree.
Click to expand...
 
i can't understand how fergie decides to leave a player who is top form and is totally committed to the united cause ie :o GS and replace him with a misfit who doesn't understand the committment needed to merit the red shirt ie:veron.After the first game at OT the formation didn't work and yet he plays the exact same tactical formation in the second leg knowing we have to win the game.I think bosnich may have had a point.
 
:rolleyes:

I cannot understand why bravery has anything to with it. It shouldn't be a norm or ethic that says one cannot be a good fan and at the same time be critical to Fergie's dispositions or tactics. It seems to me that many so called 'hard-core' fans tinks that "a good fan is a blue-eyed fan".

If this is so then that is a misunderstanding. E.g. I am totally blue-eyed when it comes to other teams. I don't give a rat's ass what other managers do because I simply don't care for them. I CAN have a view on their dispositions if it is relative to Manchester United (e.g. if United are facing them). Other than that I don't give a heck.

I DO care about Manchester United though, so I must have an opinion about them. Therefor I think, I have thoughts, I have opinions, and I express them. Not due to lack of respect for Manchester United, the club's players, manager nor fans. I simply care for the club and the fans; hence my ideas and feelings concerning the club.

<img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[No No]" />

When it comes to Fergie's dispositions and tactics this summer it is very EASY to criticise at the end of the seasons; when all the statisitics are rolled out. One cannot blame Ferguson for buying Veron. Actually he was a safer bet than Nistelroy due to his fitness and longer merit in the game. It is right to say he has been a major disappointment. No one knows if he will be a better player next year, not even himself. Because we now know no one knows what tomorrow brings; and this MAY come as a shock to some of you out there: not even the so-called "Man From the Future"...

;)

If anything with Veron can be blaimed on Fergie it must be with his almost permanent use of him despite the thin results derived from it. But this IS Fergie. He did the same with Cole when he showed us some of his weaker periods as a goal-scorer. He did the same with Yorke. He hasn't been so patient with less expensive players; take Ole e.g. I guess the price-tag does motivate Fergie to stick with him almost 'till the bitter end. Sometimes it pays off, sometimes not.

When it comes to the 4-5-1 tactic instead of the more used 4-4-2 one can say it may have cost us a bit. It was probably used to have room for Veron, Giggs, Beckham, Keane and Scholes, and the occational Butt. As it turned out Scholes was often left out in the cold. I think both the presistency in using a misfit Veron, and a "new" tactic, despite weak results - WAS wrong.

It was also unfortunate that it took so long time before nobody knew whom would be manager next year, a factor that may have been much more expensive than we are aware of. I am not sure I know whom is to blame for this, if there is anyone to blame at all. But I believe this has been weakening our squad's mental strength and motivation.

And this is my point. What went wrong this year was maybe more than anything else, a show of mental weakness. Failure of being able to motivate to WORK for the team. Failure of being able to FOCUS on work. Work now. The players often worked as individuals, not as a TEAM.

You can very easily see this when you look at our defence, or our midfield. The defence problems very easily show when they are under pressure. They suddenly don't know whom shall do what. Who shall press the attacker with the ball, whom shall cover possible areas, whom shall man-mark opponents, etc. And the midfield often shows lack of structure. Either they fall too far back in their defensive work with too many players, and cause confusion in the original defense. Or they often make outrageously simple mistakes when it comes to adressing their passes in the offensive build-up.

All in all I cannot say I have neither the answers nor the clues to WHAT went wrong this year. But I DO know SOMETHING DID go worse than we expected or hoped for. And I have suggestions to what MIGHT be the reasons for it.

And THAT doesn't make me a "NON-hardcore-Fan". Get it?

<img src="graemlins/smirk.gif" border="0" alt="[Smirk]" />
 
Originally posted by BHManUNut:
<strong>Apparently, if you're a 'REAL' United fan you have to put up or shut up because SAF has been the most resp[ected manager for Manchester United since Matt Busby, and that he cannot make mistakes or at least if you critisize (no matter how constructuve) you should be shunned by every other United fan donning red shaded spectacles.


Who is brave enough to address these issues?</strong><hr></blockquote>

I am, and put up my critique on this forum, however it has misteriously disapeared. Nazi moderators!
Click to expand...
 
tactics tactics!

basically we must have known that we would need to score at least 2 goals in leverkusen so why start without solksjaer? van nistelrooy never plays as well up front by himself and solksjaer has a bit of history for scoring european goals!

having said that: johnsen,keane and van nistelrooy looked unfit and the only player who seemed to have a spark was dennis irwin. part of me was relieved that we didnt get through to the final cos we are not good enough and real madrid would have taken us apart
 
Originally posted by mugz:
<strong>!

having said that: johnsen,keane and van nistelrooy looked unfit and the only player who seemed to have a spark was dennis irwin.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You're joking, right?
Dennis wasn't bad, but Keano looked unfit to you?
That was easily one of the best matches he's had this season.
Click to expand...
 
There is no problem with objectively analysing the team or SAF's tactics, but that is not what we get on here in General. That is when question's must be raised about the quality of support. And constant subjective moaning shows a distinct lack of true support!

For example, calling Verón uncommitted and leaving it at that without giving an opinion of why the person thinks that he is uncommitted doesn't wash. It's just a fleeting statement that cannot be backed up with facts or reasoned argument otherwise!

If people want to say something about a player or the team in general or SAF, they should at least be able to say why they have that point of view! The trouble is that most of the moaners/knockers never can say why they have that opinion, just that it is their opinion and they shouldn't be questioned as to why that they have it, because to have an opinion is right whether it can be backed up with facts or reasoned argument or not! :rolleyes:

That is what discussion forums are for, to discuss with reasoned arguments, not to make fleeting statements. <img src="graemlins/smirk.gif" border="0" alt="[Smirk]" />
 
Originally posted by WeasteDevil:
<strong>There is no problem with objectively analysing the team or SAF's tactics, but that is not what we get on here in General. That is when question's must be raised about the quality of support. And constant subjective moaning shows a distinct lack of true support!

For example, calling Verón uncommitted and leaving it at that without giving an opinion of why the person thinks that he is uncommitted doesn't wash. It's just a fleeting statement that cannot be backed up with facts or reasoned argument otherwise!

If people want to say something about a player or the team in general or SAF, they should at least be able to say why they have that point of view! The trouble is that most of the moaners/knockers never can say why they have that opinion, just that it is their opinion and they shouldn't be questioned as to why that they have it, because to have an opinion is right whether it can be backed up with facts or reasoned argument or not! :rolleyes:

That is what discussion forums are for, to discuss with reasoned arguments, not to make fleeting statements. <img src="graemlins/smirk.gif" border="0" alt="[Smirk]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

I agree with you that analyse must be objective and reasonable, but I can't agree you said there is no objective analyze here now "in genearl". People (such as me) commenting on Fergie's tactic, such as wrong formation, playing players out of position, leaving our best striker on the bench, etc... Do you feel it is unreasonable agruments?

And to be fair if people critizing Fergie need to be reasonable and backup with facts, then do people praising him also need the same thing? Such as Murt's post earlier in this thread, he just insist in saying that Veron is not worse than Becks, Giggs in this season and will become a legend, can you say it is well backup with facts? (Worse still, he think that it is the media who plot together to turn on him because of WC. But aren't England's biggest enemy in that group be Sweden? (Face it, Argentina will definitely win this group, it should be England vs Sweden for the second place) So why I heard no media said a negative word about Ljungberg?)

I still think that the problem here is not there are too many negative comments or opinion after a lost. The problem is there are always some people trying to stop others giving negative comments or opinion after a lost. If you pay attention to the thread, it is quite ironical that people gave true comments tend to write very long, while people who like to show his Red credential by stopping other posters for commenting tends to write very short, usually just a few words such as "stop moaning!" "you fickle bastards!", etc. ;)
Click to expand...
 
I make the 'Stop moaning' & 'Fickle Bastards' comments mainly because 90% of the slagging comments have not got any backup.

Many people take offence at them! They are not aimed at the 10% that can produce reasonable argument, but the 90% that make fleeting statements - normaly after we lose a game.

And yes, those people that make arguments of support for a player should also back themselves up as I have done many times. I don't love Verón, and he hasn't had the best of seasons, but I can see a great prospect in him. I don't go around saying that he's shit aand we should sell him as quickly as possible. That is the short term thinking that has made my country go down the toilet!

You never see me say this player is crap because he is crap, or this player is good because I think so!

That's all!
 
Hell, David May is not a bad defender - shall I tell the forum why?

Probably not, as only Yaps would be interested! <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />

Niall get rid of the bloody picture and put Ruud back on.
 
He's even got the bloody 1999/2000 top on! <img src="graemlins/houllier.gif" border="0" alt="[Houllier]" />

Can't you find a picture with him in a Vodafone top? :rolleyes: <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />
 
If we're talking tactics, I think the 4-5-1 that Alex wanted to use would have been far more effective with Teddy behind Ruud.

Last season he was our leading goal-scorer - I just wonder why we didn't give him the two year contract he was after, especially if SAF had the new formation in mind.
 
Originally posted by uranushk1:
<strong>

I agree with you that analyse must be objective and reasonable, but I can't agree you said there is no objective analyze here now "in genearl". People (such as me) commenting on Fergie's tactic, such as wrong formation, playing players out of position, leaving our best striker on the bench, etc... Do you feel it is unreasonable agruments?

And to be fair if people critizing Fergie need to be reasonable and backup with facts, then do people praising him also need the same thing? Such as Murt's post earlier in this thread, he just insist in saying that Veron is not worse than Becks, Giggs in this season and will become a legend, can you say it is well backup with facts? (Worse still, he think that it is the media who plot together to turn on him because of WC. But aren't England's biggest enemy in that group be Sweden? (Face it, Argentina will definitely win this group, it should be England vs Sweden for the second place) So why I heard no media said a negative word about Ljungberg?)

I still think that the problem here is not there are too many negative comments or opinion after a lost. The problem is there are always some people trying to stop others giving negative comments or opinion after a lost. If you pay attention to the thread, it is quite ironical that people gave true comments tend to write very long, while people who like to show his Red credential by stopping other posters for commenting tends to write very short, usually just a few words such as "stop moaning!" "you fickle bastards!", etc. ;) </strong><hr></blockquote>

Very true. And failing that, the self-proclaimed "purists" would start hurling abuses, laughing icons and swear words at fellow Reds while closing their minds to criticisms.

Meanwhile the dippers and other ABUs continue to laugh at our slanging matches with each other.

:rolleyes:
Click to expand...
 
I a have only four problems with Fergie's tactic:

1. Why did he take so long to put Giggs in the hole?
2. Why was Blomqvist released yet he ws fully recovered and the only logical back up to Giggs?

3. Against Derby why the hell did he remove Giggs when we were 2 goals up . It cost us victory.

4.Why didn't Djordic have a fisrt team place this sesonand why was Solksjaeron the becnh at the beginning of the season after finishin as our teams no.1 striker in the prevois one?

If he corrects that next season all will be well.
 
Originally posted by lchk:
<strong>

Very true. And failing that, the self-proclaimed "purists" would start hurling abuses, laughing icons and swear words at fellow Reds while closing their minds to criticisms.

Meanwhile the dippers and other ABUs continue to laugh at our slanging matches with each other.

:rolleyes: </strong><hr></blockquote>

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by uranushk1:

And to be fair if people critizing Fergie need to be reasonable and backup with facts, then do people praising him also need the same thing? Such as Murt's post earlier in this thread, he just insist in saying that Veron is not worse than Becks, Giggs in this season and will become a legend, can you say it is well backup with facts?
<hr></blockquote>


How can i back up my opinion that Veron will become a legend with facts?
Look over the course of the season.
Giggs, was patchy earlier on this season, ppl were even ridicullosy questioning in here if he was past it. At the time Veron won player of the month.
Beckham has pitched in with his fair share of goals this season but up until spring that was all. He saved his best performances for England, was dropped for most of xmas & january and was hardly missed. Its only in the last few months he has performed well and shown a bit of commitment.
Scholes even more so than Bex was miserable up until Xmas, didnt score goals and even refused to play in the worthless cup game. Blamb it on tactical changes, whatever but remember Veron has gone through a bigger change than anyone else.
Butt has been magnificent any time hes been called upon.
Veron was excellent in his first few months but has gone back to normality since then. Like the afore mentioned hes had good & bad periods but unfortunately for him it was last autumn and memories are short. Remember like Scholes he too has had tactical changes to live with but also geographical, social, communication problems so he should be given even more leeway.
Keane is the only midfielder who has performed consistently brilliant all season


Originally posted by uranushk1:
Worse still, he think that it is the media who plot together to turn on him because of WC. But aren't England's biggest enemy in that group be Sweden? (Face it, Argentina will definitely win this group, it should be England vs Sweden for the second place) So why I heard no media said a negative word about Ljungberg?)
<hr></blockquote>

It was in my mind for a while and even Fergie mentioned it beofre the 1/4 finals. Why dont they pick on Ljunberg? Because hes not as juicy a target,
Hes playing the football of his life and on present form and the goals hes getting hed ve a canditate for player of the season.
hes not as big a profile as Veron.
He didnt cost 25 million.


Maybe youd prefer statto opta stats but i couldnt be arsed with them, check em yourself if you want.
Look at the big picture, Veron hasnt been brilliant all season but who has?
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by kemo:
<strong>I a have only four problems with Fergie's tactic:

1. Why did he take so long to put Giggs in the hole?
2. Why was Blomqvist released yet he ws fully recovered and the only logical back up to Giggs?

3. Against Derby why the hell did he remove Giggs when we were 2 goals up . It cost us victory.

4.Why didn't Djordic have a fisrt team place this sesonand why was Solksjaeron the becnh at the beginning of the season after finishin as our teams no.1 striker in the prevois one?

If he corrects that next season all will be well.</strong><hr></blockquote>

1. Because it's indeed a dilemma, if Giggs play in the hole who play on the left?
2. Blomqvist is no longer the same player when he joined us. If I haven't remember wrong, now he can't even start in every matches for Everton.
3. I have forgotten that, so cannot answer you. :)
4. Why Djordjic don't get a place? Probably because he is not good enough. He has been loan to Sheffield Wednesday in the middle of this season but I heard that he was not playing well there.
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by Davo:
<strong>

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

There's one there....

<img src="graemlins/smirk.gif" border="0" alt="[Smirk]" />
Click to expand...
 
Against Leverkusen the defence was OK but the midfield was completely overrun! Men v boys.The amount of possession conceded was unbelievable and the inability to close down the opposition very unusual for an English team.
Basically we have 4 central midfielders at the club(Keane,Butt,Scholes,Veron)All except Keane are very uncomfortable on the left or right. The result is players out of position and unhappy.Giggs and Beckham are wingers and most effective in that position.
Time and time again at this stage of the competition SAF plays players out of position with a resulting lack of balance in the team. Leverkuson dont have better individual players but they sure have a better formation and balance and all their players seem to know exactly what is expected.
 
Leverkusen had a big desire to win, half of their players were limping towards the end yet found that bit extra.We showed the same desire in the last 15 minutes of the tie with the exception of Keano (an example to all). To add to that we gave possesion away very cheaply at times
It is definately width that we were missing if we would have had Becks on the right and Giggs on the left then we would have won, it's all about balance a department we were lacking in.
My only criticism of SAF is that it is obvious to all that if Giggs or Beckham are out we do not have the same quality of player to come in.
This is where he should have spent money and indeed should now.Along with a world class defender of course.
 
with a stronger defenc to allow the player
of veron skill to play in his natural position with out to much worries of defending he will be
top proformer like he is for his country sir alex
and the board know this and they all trying to get the right defenders with the right price. before we say Sta we all know the problem with St(try calling your bass a cheat any where in the world and then try to work for him.
 
Originally posted by lchk:
<strong>

Very true. And failing that, the self-proclaimed "purists" would start hurling abuses, laughing icons and swear words at fellow Reds while closing their minds to criticisms.

Meanwhile the dippers and other ABUs continue to laugh at our slanging matches with each other.

:rolleyes: </strong><hr></blockquote>

look who's talking!! ;)
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by Stanley Road:
<strong>

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />

And when the sun is shining the sky isn't blue.........right?

;) </strong><hr></blockquote>

:p ;)
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.