When is it ever the players' faults?

Micky Targaryen

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This is the first ever thread I've started since lurking on here. I've always couldn't be bothered to start a thread and not sure how long this will last, but since the doom and gloom on here, all you need to do is take a quick glance on the Caf and you can see countless Mourinho threads, basically blaming him from performances on the pitch, to transfers, and press conferences. But let's focus on the match performances. I think we can safely say that if we follow the narrative of the Caf, it will be like this:

Scenario 1
If player is underperforming or demotivated = Mourinho's fault because it is his job to motivate and get the best out of players.

Scenario 2
2) If the team fails to get a result = Mourinho's fault, because the buck stops with the manager?

Scenario 3
3) If the dressing room atmosphere is bad = Mourinho's fault because he is the one who should be in control of the dressing room.

Now my question is, in what situation will it be the players' fault?

For instance, in Scenario 2, if the team fails to grab a win because Lukaku failed to convert two easy chances. Now, if Lukaku would've scored those two chances, we would've gone on to win the match and there wouldn't be much people moaning about the result and the manager. But unfortunately, Lukaku did not win the match for us, and people will once again call for the manager's head.

Likewise for Scenario 3, let's say player X is unhappy with the manager and starts to cause some disharmony in the dressing room. And he starts to convince other players to stand up against the manager. Surely, it's that player's fault? Or is still the manager's fault because he has failed to control the dressing room? Because it's always the easiest route to blame the manager, simply because we do not know exactly what is going on behind the scenes.

Basically, to cut it short, it seems to me that the popular opinion on here is that almost anything negative that happens to the club on or off the pitch is down to the manager, and not so much the players. I understand it's not an either/or situation, but there must be hundreds of threads calling for Mourinho's head. Is it safe to say that a player's job is generally safer and more secure than a manager's job, no matter what happens?

Just wish to reiterate that, I agree that Mourinho himself has a lot to answer for regarding our recent form, and this is not a thread defending Mourinho. More like an empathy thread.
 
Blaming the manager is a subconscious way for people to tell themselves "everything is going to be ok". If they convince themselves it's all the managers fault then that means there is a quick fix and they'll be happy again soon. If they were to accept that the players aren't good enough then it would mean accepting that this may take years to sort. People don't like that.
 
It will always be the manager's fault, so long as it seems plausible that a different manager would get different performances from the group.
 
The whole team except shaw, smalling and de gea are in dire form.

There is no structure, no clear vision, nothing to suggest we can come out the other side of this with jose.

Sometimes its just time for a change
 
Pretty sure everyone has been calling Lukaku a donkey, Valencia useless, Pogba self obsessed and not as good as he can be, Matic too slow, Lindelof inept, Bailly rash, Sanchez done for etc etc etc. God knows where this idea came from that fans don’t blame players. Looks like another one trying desperately to give manager some leeway which he doesn’t deserve.
 
It's almost always both. But because of the nature of his position, the manager will always be at fault. He is responsible for everything that players do, and he is responsible for the result — and if a player underperforms (which would be his fault), a manager should bench/improve/sell him.

With the Lukaku missing chances example — people will blame the player if it's one game, if it's a continuous problem, they'll (rightly) blame the manager.
 
I do think the players are taking a lot of flack too, particularly on the Caf. But I think a problem is that no one really knows which players to blame, on the surface it's easier to blame the worst performing players but behind the scenes they could be the most committed to the club which makes playing the blame game difficult. I do think the players mentioned get away with a lot, particularly the ones who've been here under 3 different managers and each time failed. Some of them do just enough to stick around when really we should've cleared the lot out after LvG.

For our "star" players I can see why the manager would take a lot of heat for how they're playing because they've all demonstrated how good they were at other clubs, Sanchez and Pogba were cracking players at their previous clubs. Martial and Rashford were much better players under LvG. You have to start questioning are they playing poorly because of their attitude or managerial direction? Martial particularly gets called out for his attitude but from his perspective he was playing very well then all of a sudden we sign this shiny new winger and drop him from the team, professional attitude or not it's poor management really which contributes a lot.

Blaming the manager is also easier than blaming a collection of players because there's only one man, sacking him isn't a magical cure though. There are plenty of issues that I feel start with Woodward and work their way down through the management.

Long story short, it's basically both the manager and the players.
 
Moonred said:
Pretty sure everyone has been calling Lukaku a donkey, Valencia useless, Pogba self obsessed and not as good as he can be, Matic too slow, Lindelof inept, Bailly rash, Sanchez done for etc etc etc. God knows where this idea came from that fans don’t blame players. Looks like another one trying desperately to give manager some leeway which he doesn’t deserve.
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Yes of course they are people blaming the players too, I'm not denying that. My point is that the manager is always getting the mega portion of the scapegoat pie. People can easily forget when player X misses a sitter, but will always remember the manager for a bad result.

harms said:
It's almost always both. But because of the nature of his position, the manager will always be at fault. He is responsible for everything that players do, and he is responsible for the result — and if a player underperforms (which would be his fault), a manager should bench/improve/sell him.

With the Lukaku missing chances example — people will blame the player if it's one game, if it's a continuous problem, they'll (rightly) blame the manager.
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Fair enough regarding the nature of the manager's job. But regarding the bolded part, surely then it's down to the player's mentality? The manager can only do so much tactically wise and in training, but it's the player's job to convert it on the pitch.
 
Micky Targaryen said:
Fair enough regarding the nature of the manager's job. But regarding the bolded part, surely then it's down to the player's mentality? The manager can only do so much tactically wise and in training, but it's the player's job to convert it on the pitch.
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If your striker can't convert chances, you either coach him how to do it properly, or bench (and eventually sell) him. A manager is responsible for the result, so if there's a recurrent problem that he doesn't respond to, it's his fault.
 
Players are benched and sold every years based on their performances. The narrative behind the thread makes no sense, fans and clubs have zero loyalty toward players, they are treated like disposable assets that can be sold, exiled or berated at any point of their career, they are barely given the benefit of doubts unlike managers for which we created the totally arbitrary three years or "respecting the contract" or "stability". More often than not players are judged on performances while managers are judged based on PR, "we don't want to be a sacking" but "we don't mind being a selling club".
 
I agree putting all the blame on the manager, while the players hide behind, is unfair if the manager did his job right.

Balance of both should be considered, and in some case, one should take it more than the others.

Basically, it's highly dependents on the specific situations and timings.

I guess it's easier to use examples for this then.
-Season 2016/17, specifically the first half of that season. Mostly all Mou's decisions and tactics those time are right and positive. And still some players performed horribly and did things which justified criticisms and they should take responsibility of why we're losing or drawing then. Some even blab their mouths to their agents exerting annoying pressures, give me special privileges of playing, I don't want to fight for a place, etc. The mentality, motivations and intentions of some players are justified should be questioned.

Anyway, since then, there is this growing realization of Mou not taking in the responsibility, and rather deflecting it often to somewhere else. In that season 16/17, he accepted I remember just once admitting his mistake in costing us a loss, I think against Chelsea was it. Since then, he blamed everything else, it's just sounds so irresponsible. So, you did nothing that lead to this shitshow?

That said, the players are given plenty of criticisms (given faults) that range from fair to ridiculous. I mean in the end players are the one that play. But if the system (decided by manager) are not helping so they can perform better, then expect a drop of performance. In addition, if they're not spending enough time let's say in attacking trainings, but more so in the opposite, it'll show on the pitch. Their feelings and morale needs to be considered as well. The whole system, managers have a big say in those. Players are not robots.

I really don't get this it's either the manager or the players. Must be one of the two. Nothing in between. Really?
 
The players are signed by the club/manager(s). They have been scouted and found to have the necessary qualities to do well at a top top club. If there are troublemakers in the squad, the fault is of those who signed them. Currently, some of the most "problematic" players were signed by the manager: Pogba, Lukaku, Matic, Bailly, Lindelof. If they are troublemakers, then the manager made a huge mistake to sign them.

Generally, it's a naive armchair psychology to think that some group of players is intrinsically bad/unprofessional/lazy...Footballers are normal people who can thrive in some enviroments and stagnate/struggle in other enviroments. Most Liverpool and City players are completely normal guys but are aggressive and work hard on the pitch. The buck stops with the manager.
 
In our current plight I would aim a bit of blame at the players were it not for the fact that its been the same story for 5 years across 3 managers and numerous different squads. At this point you have to look at the whole culture of the club rather than trying to blame individuals.

I would accept that its gone beyond the point of no return with Mourinho except its exactly the same as under Van Gaal and Moyes. Terrible football, no structure and signings not really working. Its largely interchangeable.

We can and do slate the signings made but I refuse to believe that we have spent £700m on all bad players yet to a man they all regressed during their time in a red shirt. I was happy with Sanchez yet he has been horrific, I was happy with Lukaku but after a decent first season he is going backwards, Matic looked great for a few months after signing, now he looks average, Bailly was a beast upon arrival, now he has just another bit part in our lack of defensive structure - and so it goes on.....The same applies to every single player signed by Van Gaal as well and probably the two signed under Moyes to a greater or lesser extent.

If anyone knows the answers Im all ears!!!
 
It's the players fault if we absolutely dominate the game, create lots and lots of chances but fail to score. Not exactly the whole team but then we can say whoever is missing the chances should be dropped.
It's the players fault when we play really well and score but we keep giving chances away and conceding. Because then you can pinpoint exactly where the problem is and rectify that.
Its not the players fault when the whole team is clueless and every top player we have looks average. Which is what we have now.
 
pocco said:
Blaming the manager is a subconscious way for people to tell themselves "everything is going to be ok". If they convince themselves it's all the managers fault then that means there is a quick fix and they'll be happy again soon. If they were to accept that the players aren't good enough then it would mean accepting that this may take years to sort. People don't like that.
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So much this.
 
It’s very hard to blame the manager for individual mistakes like a missed sitter or s goalkeeping howler. When the team (as opposed to the individual) is playing dire, listless football, or looks like they don’t give a shit, then that’s in the manager
 
One or two players playing badly,yes excuse the manager.
The entire squad looking like amateurs, the manager is to blame.
 
We need a manager who can handle these snowflakes

Fergie would've got rid of half of these already

Can Only imagine De Gea, Valencia, Young, Smalling, Lingard and Rashford would've got into his squads. The rest are as flakey as feck
 
The worst thing is that it's the players he brought in which have really underperformed. How can that be anyone elses fault?
 
Even during our bad run under SAF, the majority were blaming him along with Queiroz.

Players are let off the hook because it's a lot easier to get rid of a manager compared to finding replacements for 5-6 players.
 
Great and fair responses. The 'it will always be the manager's fault" narrative is why there will always be a managerial merry-go-round. By the way, this thread is merely to discuss football clubs in general, not just the current situation at Manchester United.

Regarding footballer's mentality, IMO the manager can only try so much to motivate and encourage, whether it is an arm around over the shoulder or tough love. And at the end of the day, if the said player is still demotivated, I just think that the easiest route is to blame the manager for mis-managing and failing to motivate.
 
JPRouve said:
Players are benched and sold every years based on their performances. The narrative behind the thread makes no sense, fans and clubs have zero loyalty toward players, they are treated like disposable assets that can be sold, exiled or berated at any point of their career, they are barely given the benefit of doubts unlike managers for which we created the totally arbitrary three years or "respecting the contract" or "stability". More often than not players are judged on performances while managers are judged based on PR, "we don't want to be a sacking" but "we don't mind being a selling club".
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Sorry mate absolute crap that the fans aren’t loyal to the players. Sometimes people think when the Caf goes full sheep mode and the people who like to moan drown out everyone else, that all fans have the same opinion. But that’s very wrong. The majority of our fans are decent people who respect and show loyalty to players who earn it. Just a Shame the Caf doesn’t actually reflect how our real fans who go week in week out, act the vast majority of the time.
 
beedoubleyou said:
The worst thing is that it's the players he brought in which have really underperformed. How can that be anyone elses fault?
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Fair enough.

My initial discussion is about football clubs in general, not just the shitfest that's going on in our club right now. Just using Man Utd as an example because the doom and gloom on here is off the charts.
 
Micky Targaryen said:
Fair enough.

My initial discussion is about football clubs in general, not just the shitfest that's going on in our club right now. Just using Man Utd as an example because the doom and gloom on here is off the charts.
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Regardless of the scenario, the manager is there to get the best out of the players. We won't know what's happening at United right now until it's over, but I suspect it's not entirely straightforward. Seems odd that we're supposedly offering contracts to players the manager doesn't seem to want and feels like the star players might be valued more than than the the manager.

We will find out one day. The lack of a public meltdown suggests this might be nothing more than a conspiracy.
 
It was LVG's fault, sacked him.

Now it's one of the most successful manager's fault, sack him?

Out of the starting line up yesterday, he inherited: DDG, Valencia, Smalling, Shaw, Fellaini, Rashford, Martial.

DDG: world class

Valencia: great servant but now past it
Smalling: our best cb but a way below reaching the status of rio and vidic. Not a dig, he's fashioned a good career but we can do better.
Shaw: would have been sold a year ago under a different manager with less patience. Starting to come good this year.
Fellaini: good hard worker, terrible last night though
Rashford: immature young kid
Martial: moody, on his day a great player but more often than not can't be bothered.

Take into consideration that last season, these guys used to start almost every game (except Shaw who was benched). Granted Jose's signings haven't worked out, but he really inherited players not of the required quality for a club like us.

I'm sorry but if Jose Mourinho can't set this team up not to concede stupid goals and be clinical in front of goal then no one can.
 
When few players are underperforming then its players' fault. When the Entire team looks clueless against bottom half teams, then it is definitely Manager's fault.
 
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Why do people insist on appointing blame fully and solely on one person or group.

It’s not fecking rocket science to understand that it is the fault of both Mourinho and the players.
 
Fans always want quick change and changing the manager is the best possible way to change things.
What would change if we replace Lukaku by some other number 9? Or replace an underperforming Sanchez by Perisic or Dembele? Nothing would change.
By changing this one person (the manager), you get the highest chance of change (playing style, players attitude, line-ups etc.), so fans love it.
 
Jose is the root cause of a lot of issues but the players have a lack of back bone. It is so embarrassing we are now saying they put in effort against Valencia like we should be thankful. That Smalling interview was cringe. I fully blame these players as well as Jose. The lot of them are an embarrassment to this club but unfortunately we cannot sack them all.
 
Red_toad said:
Sorry mate absolute crap that the fans aren’t loyal to the players. Sometimes people think when the Caf goes full sheep mode and the people who like to moan drown out everyone else, that all fans have the same opinion. But that’s very wrong. The majority of our fans are decent people who respect and show loyalty to players who earn it. Just a Shame the Caf doesn’t actually reflect how our real fans who go week in week out, act the vast majority of the time.
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That's not true though, first I was talking about fans and clubs in general. And people don't care about players being sold or benched, it's not about being decent or not it's simply that football fans for the most part have developed the philosophy that the club is the only thing that matters, in some clubs like United the decisions taken by the managers have value of law. You just have to discuss football with people, if you suggest that players have feelings and can't be treated like object people will most likely point to their salaries.

By the word that you used, I can see that you took it personally, I'm not judging people's individual character but the mentality of the sport. We don't keep players because they are with us, we keep them because they serve us as expected otherwise they are out.
 
Whn Zidane becomes our next manager. People will realize then the problem is far bigger than just managerial change. Currently no one can look past Mourinho. Tbf he's not a very lovely figure to not blame him. With a lovely figure as Zidane around people will start look elsewhere.

Think our main problem is under LVG our best players were 2 inconsistent youngsters, we needed top quality but then our top signings we tried to make to elevate the team turned god awful, Sanchez is past it and Lukaku is Everton level. Pogba has been the only good one but incredibly inconsistent, while we didn't develop our 2 inconsistent youngsters from LVG era, thus thus ending at the same position or even worse.
 
Under LVG, a whole lot of us thought that squad was good, and getting rid of him would unleash its potential. We seemed to blame the players very little that year.


I don't think it can just be pin pointed. Probably everyone is at fault. Players for not doing their best, manager for failing to motivate and inspire not just the players he inherited but even players he identified and brought in, and the board for meandering - either back him or sack him. Not doing either seemed a bizarre choice.

I don't think a change of manager fixes everything, but it could give us a boost in the short term, and reignite the fire in a few players. Mourinho did that initially. First season was an improvement, and we won two cups. Went on a long unbeaten run in the league. A few too many draws, but we were solid and creating chances. Zlatan was magic, Pogba was getting there, Mkhi and Bailly had spells of looking the business. Now only 2 of those players play for us, and both allegedly in the midst of spats with Jose.

Players need to stand up and be counted, but Jose needs to stop going after them, especially in the public eye. Read from the Fergie script infront of the camera. Blame the referee, blame the timewasting, blame whatever. Protect your players when Geoff Shreeves is prying for gossip and bollock your players behind closed doors. Making things public seems to be a poor strategy, the players are responding poorly to it. It's not good management.
 
Slevs said:
It was LVG's fault, sacked him.

Now it's one of the most successful manager's fault, sack him?

Out of the starting line up yesterday, he inherited: DDG, Valencia, Smalling, Shaw, Fellaini, Rashford, Martial.

DDG: world class

Valencia: great servant but now past it
Smalling: our best cb but a way below reaching the status of rio and vidic. Not a dig, he's fashioned a good career but we can do better.
Shaw: would have been sold a year ago under a different manager with less patience. Starting to come good this year.
Fellaini: good hard worker, terrible last night though
Rashford: immature young kid
Martial: moody, on his day a great player but more often than not can't be bothered.

Take into consideration that last season, these guys used to start almost every game (except Shaw who was benched). Granted Jose's signings haven't worked out, but he really inherited players not of the required quality for a club like us.

I'm sorry but if Jose Mourinho can't set this team up not to concede stupid goals and be clinical in front of goal then no one can.
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I agree with you and it gets worse when you remember players like rojo lingard blind darmian herrera jones and mata were also part of this make up too. None of them have shown anything in their utd careers for anyone to believe that they could ever be consistent starters in a top 6 side. Mata was once a decent player at chelsea, but apart from that, the club have spent alot of money on players that should be playing for west ham and not man utd. We have decent working pieces at the moment compared to those players in DDG Dalot Bailly Shaw Pogba Fred Perreira Matic Sanchez and Lukaku....some of these players have shown real consistent quality at utd or have at least shown glimpses of consistent potential in recent memory. So in terms of starting xi, we do not need too much to succeed depending on how the above mentioned players do under a new manager. As for the rest of the squad, they have shown consistent lack of starting level quality and should not be relied on on a week to week basis. As they are squad players, the players amongst them with attitude problems should be sold ( hint hint Martial) and the money used to fill the gaps ( centre back and right wing) in the starting xi. Hopefully Gomes Chong and Greenwood can make the step up to replace the depth.
 
OnlyTwoDaSilvas said:
Under LVG, a whole lot of us thought that squad was good, and getting rid of him would unleash its potential. We seemed to blame the players very little that year.


I don't think it can just be pin pointed. Probably everyone is at fault. Players for not doing their best, manager for failing to motivate and inspire not just the players he inherited but even players he identified and brought in, and the board for meandering - either back him or sack him. Not doing either seemed a bizarre choice.

I don't think a change of manager fixes everything, but it could give us a boost in the short term, and reignite the fire in a few players. Mourinho did that initially. First season was an improvement, and we won two cups. Went on a long unbeaten run in the league. A few too many draws, but we were solid and creating chances. Zlatan was magic, Pogba was getting there, Mkhi and Bailly had spells of looking the business. Now only 2 of those players play for us, and both allegedly in the midst of spats with Jose.

Players need to stand up and be counted, but Jose needs to stop going after them, especially in the public eye. Read from the Fergie script infront of the camera. Blame the referee, blame the timewasting, blame whatever. Protect your players when Geoff Shreeves is prying for gossip and bollock your players behind closed doors. Making things public seems to be a poor strategy, the players are responding poorly to it. It's not good management.
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Is it true though? It might be revisionism on my part buy I thought that we lacked quality under LVG but that he built a solid base to built on, the structure was interesting despite a lack of quality and the results were decent. The issue is that because LVG is really bad at purchasing players I was convinced that he would never bring the correct players and that our performances would be forever dull.

Today it's different, I have no idea about what the structure is while I also think that Mourinho brought decent players that will be useful to someone else.
 
JPRouve said:
Players are benched and sold every years based on their performances. The narrative behind the thread makes no sense, fans and clubs have zero loyalty toward players, they are treated like disposable assets that can be sold, exiled or berated at any point of their career, they are barely given the benefit of doubts unlike managers for which we created the totally arbitrary three years or "respecting the contract" or "stability". More often than not players are judged on performances while managers are judged based on PR, "we don't want to be a sacking" but "we don't mind being a selling club".
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This.
 
OnlyTwoDaSilvas said:
Under LVG, a whole lot of us thought that squad was good, and getting rid of him would unleash its potential. We seemed to blame the players very little that year.


I don't think it can just be pin pointed. Probably everyone is at fault. Players for not doing their best, manager for failing to motivate and inspire not just the players he inherited but even players he identified and brought in, and the board for meandering - either back him or sack him. Not doing either seemed a bizarre choice.

I don't think a change of manager fixes everything, but it could give us a boost in the short term, and reignite the fire in a few players. Mourinho did that initially. First season was an improvement, and we won two cups. Went on a long unbeaten run in the league. A few too many draws, but we were solid and creating chances. Zlatan was magic, Pogba was getting there, Mkhi and Bailly had spells of looking the business. Now only 2 of those players play for us, and both allegedly in the midst of spats with Jose.

Players need to stand up and be counted, but Jose needs to stop going after them, especially in the public eye. Read from the Fergie script infront of the camera. Blame the referee, blame the timewasting, blame whatever. Protect your players when Geoff Shreeves is prying for gossip and bollock your players behind closed doors. Making things public seems to be a poor strategy, the players are responding poorly to it. It's not good management.
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With LVG it was always the players. I do not believe he set them out to be that slow and tepid. He may have given them an information overload, but if played using technical players, I believe LVG may still be here today. I did not blame him for the boring football as I believed that the lack of quality in the squad caused indecision and inactivity that led to the slow pace and lack of chances, not Van Gaal's tactics. However, Van Gaal was also responsible for destroying the squad that he initially was given, which was a decent squad, and replacing it with the poor squad he left with. Moves such as replacing Rafael with Darmian, selling all the wingers at the squad, selling Chicarito Welbeck and RVP , letting Evra go, not signing a centre back and replacing them with nobody. He essentially sold the most consistent players in Fergie's last few years ( whoscored season ratings show this) with a bunch of relegation fighting players. That is the reason why, despite spending heavily on our best players ( Pogba, Lukaku, ,Matic), the squad still is not at Champions League competing quality.
 
We as fans is partially at fault as well. Our opinions here matters. It's some sort of approval and vindication for some players to behave like that.

For example many here sides with martial and pogba against mourinho. While one person opinion in a football forum matters none as a collective opinions our opinions matters.

No doubt agents, press, media staff will trawl some of these boards to feels the pulse of the fans.

Ever notice why players seems to somehow magically says the things we've all had in mind? I dont think it's magic. Anybody with a google engine and 2 hours to spare can read these forums and comes out tomorrow with things we want to hear.

In jose situation the fans created the vindication that everything is jose fault. Just like our players were absolved of all the blame during moyes era, and lvg era as well. Our players becomes complacent, because they know the fans will put the blame on mourinho and none on them.
 
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