What's happened to defending?

noodlehair

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Why has every team barring Chelsea basically just given up on it?

Even in the big games now, you get goals being scored with relative ease. It's not a one off like the Liverpool game today. Practically every game between two of the big sides this season has been littered with pathetic defending.

I was makking this point to a mate earlier who reckoned attacking players had just got better, but then I thought about some of the goals being scored, then just watched the Liverpool and Chelsea games on MOTD...I'm sorry, but no. Half of these goals a few years ago would never have happened. Teams just seem to switch off completely when they lose the ball. Or find it acceptable to play circus clowns at the heart of their defence/midfield. I mean City, the supposed best team in the league, play Demichelis in every game. Why? It's like they deliberately want to be terrible defensively.
 
Are teams trying to play a more attacking style (including attacking full-backs) as people looked at Barca and some high profile finals won by teams defending which attracted criticism? Less orthodox formations which make it harder to defend against? The high pressing some big teams try causes mistakes further up the field? Do big games matter less this season with the competitiveness in the league and so are more open?

I always thought that defending has been getting worse over the past few seasons. They don't make defenders like Stam anymore, these days players like Luiz are called centre-backs.
 
I think there may be an imbalance right now between the number of great attackers and great defenders in the league. Each of the big teams has at least two really strong attacking players, but which of them has even one truly world-class centre-back?
 
When Laurent Koscielny has his own thread on redcafe about being the best defender in the league, you know the standard has badly deteriorated.

Theres a real lack of leaders in the league nowadays, very few organisers like Neville, Carragher, Keown, Adams, King, Bruce, Southgate and defenders of the quality of Campbell, McGrath, Stam, Irwin and prime Ferdinand, A Cole etc. Worldwide there are no players of the standard of Maldini, Nesta, Desailly, Cannavaro etc. Another problem is fullbacks that are wannabe wingers like Gibbs, Rafael and Kolarov, where defending is almost of secondary importance. A converted winger like Buttner would have never got games in the premier league for us a decade ago.

A bad time for defending at the minute no doubt.
 
It's largely because teams are much more attacking. A few years ago any team going 2-0 down at a top team would just fold up and die - not now they go gung ho to get a goal and if they do it's a fight.
 
Cutch said:
When Laurent Koscielny has his own thread on redcafe about being the best defender in the league, you know the standard has badly deteriorated.

Theres a real lack of leaders in the league nowadays, very few organisers like Neville, Carragher, Keown, Adams, King, Bruce, Southgate and defenders of the quality of Campbell, McGrath, Stam, Irwin and prime Ferdinand, A Cole etc. Worldwide there are no players of the standard of Maldini, Nesta, Desailly, Cannavaro etc. Another problem is fullbacks that are wannabe wingers like Gibbs, Rafael and Kolarov, where defending is almost of secondary importance. A converted winger like Buttner would have never got games in the premier league for us a decade ago.

A bad time for defending at the minute no doubt.
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Good post.

I think a back four [or five if you wish to include the keeper] of 8+ years ago possessed a greater ability and confidence to deal with attacks independently of the rest of the team. There was a redundancy by way of the defensive unit or CB partnership taht has been superseded by modern trends unfortunately.

In simple terms of quality, is there even one defender amongst the present Top 4 for whom you could make a case of being better defensively than a counterpart of the 2000s? Kompany springs to mind but not too many others.
 
Cutch said:
Worldwide there are no players of the standard of Maldini, Nesta, Desailly, Cannavaro etc.
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Thiago Silva can compare with some of the best defenders of the past couple of decades - he is a stunning defender who has been the best in the world since mid-2010. I've never seen a word of criticism against Silva for quite a long time. The only error for club that I can recall him making in the past few years was the one against Arsenal. He has absolutely no flaws in his game as a defender, something no other can attest to. His 2010-11 season can be argued as one of the best ever from a modern central defender - it's certainly the best I've seen and I've watched a lot of football over the years. That was the season in which the Baresi comparisons began, and it wasn't only fans making those claims.

Tassotti: "Under certain aspects, Franco Baresi and Thiago Silva are similar, for example physically. Thiago is probably much better than Franco in aerial play, even if Franco, despite not being tall, made himself respected and improved this aspect of his game a lot. This year, Thiago had an excellent season playing at Baresi’s level, but Franco had several fantastic seasons, not only one or two, but 15 or 16 and I think that at the moment this is the only difference between the two."

Maldini: "Certainly, Thiago shows that security that characterised Franco when he used to play. For one reason or another, when Baresi came off during the break or during the game, we all felt his loss and I think the same thing is happening now with Thiago, because he gives so much security at the back. Physically, Thiago is superior to Franco, but despite lacking the physical attributes of Thiago, Franco was a monster from every other point of view."

Baresi: "It’s always difficult to make comparisons. In any case, I think that Thiago Silva is a great player, a great defender who’s proving his worth. He has exceptional qualities, so I believe Milan have found a player for the long run, a defender who has a bright future ahead of him. Making comparisons is part of the game, but I think he must be himself, demonstrating his value as a player. Playing with the kind of continuity he had this season proves he really belongs to the elite.”

Nesta: "You can't say 'I'll sell Silva and buy a similar player'. There are no similar players around, only worse ones."

Serginho: "Paolo Maldini who is here with us tonight was a player at the level of Franco Baresi, but Thiago is up there too."

Galliani: "He reminded me of the old Desailly."

I have a much different opinion to yours. I had a discussion with @Malva and someone else in the Newbie section a few weeks ago where I said that Silva is better than Vidic, Ferdinand, Stam, and Cannavaro. I think it was those four. I also said that you could put Silva next to prime Nesta and they would be almost equals, that's how marginal the difference is. It helps when Baresi describes Silva as his heir.

I think he is the most complete defender since Nesta, and even then I think Silva is better with the ball than Nesta, but Nesta was a better defender. I look at the teammates Silva had during his stint at Milan, and apart from an aging Nesta the leadership, dominance, and composure that Silva showed as a defender is almost unmatched.

I think what best exhibits Silva's ability is the 2:2 draw against Barça last year. This is who his teammates at the back were: Maxwell, Alex, Jallet, Matuidi, Beckham. And yet he put in arguably the best defensive performance of the season. The recovery tackle against Messi was one of the cleanest retrievals of the ball that I recall seeing.

When people talk about footballers "walking" into other teams, Silva would literally walk into every team. There is no system that he would not excel in. High-line, deep-line, zonal marking, close marking, nothing can faze him. The way he controls space in the defensive third is something that you simply don't see from a defender. I'm going on and on about this, but he is a golden defender.

Edit:
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The instant reaction, the speed, the tackle. All to the highest possible level. It encompasses his style IMO.
 
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Is that the clip from the match against Rennais? It looks like their kit. He does it quite often for a defender, just shows how great he is at manipulating the ball. I remember he did a couple of those moves with the seleção last year.

He has played as a DMF before, he certainly has the traits of a holding midfielder. I look at Lahm and I don't think anyone could have predicted his level of play in midfield this season. Easily the best holding midfielder, arguably the best all-around IMO. Brilliant against City and Dortmund this season as well. I think back to Silva and although he is more "clunky" and less agile on the ball, he has a better range of passing and he is much more skilled in closing space through the centre.

I remember in the "Carletto 6 defenders" match, Silva was given the role of the #6 (alongside Maxwell and Matuidi) and I thought he did great for a holding midfielder let alone a defender playing in midfield. Then at Milan there were the Cesena and Catania matches, both brilliant performances. Against Catania he dominated the ball like a real central midfielder, and against Cesena he put in a performance that brought Galliani to compare him with the great Desailly.

Here's a great article from James Horncastle on the Silva/Desailly comparison:
http://www.football-italia.net/node/2196
Why then is this at all relevant today? Well, when Rino Gattuso pulled up with a muscle injury before Milan's match against Cesena on Sunday evening, Massimiliano Allegri went back to the future with his tactics. He decided to partner Mario Yepes with Alessandro Nesta in defence and then took a leaf out of Capello's book by moving Thiago Silva, the Brazil international centre-back, into midfield à la Desailly. It was an intriguing success and one that was borne out by the statistics.

Thiago Silva completed more passes than anyone else on the pitch [67], recovered more balls than anyone other than Yepes [25] and managed three shots on goal [3] as well in a precious 2-0 victory for the League leaders. Interviewed after the game, Milan Vice-President Adriano Galliani was moved to say: "He reminded me of the old Desailly." Il Corriere della Sera even went so far as to call Thiago Silva a "complete champion," such was the aptitude with which he performed the role.

Despite being a couple of inches shorter, there are similarities between Thiago Silva's style of play and that of Desailly. He is very fast and strong too, excellent in the air, as well as a fine tackler and a brilliant reader of the game. If anything the Brazilian is more elegant in possession than his French counterpart.
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Although to be fair, I'd like to see him play as a DMF against a top team before I rest complete judgement on his abilities as a holding midfielder.
 
3 points for a win. That's what happened.

Yes, I know it happened hundreds of years ago, but the full affect on playing styles and the significance of defenders has taken this long to come through.

The change was 30 years ago in England but only 20 years ago in Spain, Italy and Germany etc.

This generation of managers/coaches were mostly still playing when the change took place. The current generation of players have never known it to be any other way. League winners used to be (more or less) the teams who could win at home and draw away. The Storeytime table says you have to beat the lower teams as well.

Defenders who can only defend become less significant than ones who can help a team play it out from the back, keep possession, and even contribute directly to the attack. Tactically and philosophically pure defenders have been devalued to the point where a different kind of player is being placed in the back 4.

That said, there are cycles in football as well, and we'll probably see it change again. Plus, looking back we tend to remember the best handful of performances by the best handful of players and ignore the rest, so it's not necessarily a lower standard generally that we're talking about.
 
a lot of the best defenders ever would probably struggle with the modern rules around free kicks, tackles from behind, players diving etc and struggle to make it to half time without being sent off

i wonder how many goals ronaldo and messi would score if they were given the same treatment as van basten and maradonna?

its very hard to compare football over different periods

EDIT

Also imagine that old milan side or arsenal side playing the same offside trap with todays interpretation of the rules
 
Good posts on Thiago Silva on the page, I was going to mention him. Only one who's truly consistent enough to be ranked amongst the very best. Exceptional defender.
 
Yesterday for us really highlighted how vital it is for CMs to be alert in defense to help out the CBs. Even though Vidic was the primary suspect for both goals by making two fatal errors (not so much in the first goal), it was the failure of Fletcher to track Sidwell's run, and Michael Carrrick not being alert for Vidic's header. They do have to take responsibility for that, and it has been quite a problem for us this season in general, along with Evra's inability to defend of recent times. Every team above us has at least one firm DM ahead of their CBs that provide an extra brick in the wall that makes it harder for teams to go through the middle: Arsenal have Flamini, City have Fernandinho, Chelsea have Ramires and sometimes David Luiz. These players are far superior to the likes of Carrick and Cleverley defensively, who seem to lose a lot of concentration at the back. I think the smaller team's reliance on counter-attacking football, parking the bus then springing their players onto a thinned out defense has made the bigger teams let in easier goals, but this has been happening for years, and will be their main gameplan for years to come.
 
There are a few factors at play:
  • Greater focus on ball-playing defenders, driven by:
  • Improved pitches - easier to play a passing game come rain or shine
  • Success of Barcelona and Spain's possession game has clearly influenced the style of play across Europe
  • Passback rule. That's taken a generation for a new breed of light-footed goalkeeper to come through who can spread and circulate play under pressure.
  • Resulting shift in focus in developing defenders from off-the-ball work to on-the-ball work.
  • In England it's clear that during the mid-to-late 2000s Chelsea, United and Liverpool (and Arsenal prior to that) had settled and well-established back fours. That's not the case now as many of those have come to the end of their lifespan and we are now in a transition phase for the next generation.
 
I have been looking at Juventus' tactics. It's fantastic. Both from a defensive view, and a very flexible one when in possession. Its brilliant really. No one plays with two strikers anymore, so why do we still defend as if everyone does?
 
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