what is wrong with our substitutes?

[RUnited]

Someone please come up with a logic as to why no substitutes were introduced in the West Ham game..

Brown just got back from injury, i thought he needed rest after 70 hard minutes of pounding.

Giggs looked like he could have been taken off, having done so little over the course of the game.

Both Jimmy Davis and Kieran Richardson looked ready to take on West Ham. Forlan probably missed his first game in so long.

Any ideas as to why SAF decided to use any of these players?

 

[Livvie]

Originally posted by RUnited:
<strong>Any ideas as to why SAF decided to use any of these players?</strong><hr></blockquote>


More often than not over the past few years, Fergie has either left substitutions until something like the 80th minute, or not bothered at all.

So who knows.

 

[RUnited]

Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>


More often than not over the past few years, Fergie has either left substitutions until something like the 80th minute, or not bothered at all.

So who knows.</strong><hr></blockquote>

but it's been very rare that we do not use substitutes.. it was even more strange because i would have atleast thought Kieran would have gotten his run out since neither giggs nor fortune were doing much in the last 15-20 minutes.

 

[Huiting]

Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>


More often than not over the past few years, Fergie has either left substitutions until something like the 80th minute, or not bothered at all.

So who knows.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I saw Richardson waiting to be introduced at around the 80th minute if I'm not wrong, but I was left wondering why he didn't come into the game. Then we conceded that goal and he probably wouldn't have come in by then.

 

[antohan]

Originally posted by RUnited:
<strong>Any ideas as to why SAF decided to use any of these players?</strong><hr></blockquote>

The game was fast-paced, we were being pissed all over and we were hanging on to a 1-0 lead. Not the best scenario for substitutes, particularly when our bench isn't what it used to be.

 

[Neil Thomson]

Originally posted by antohan:
<strong>

The game was fast-paced, we were being pissed all over and we were hanging on to a 1-0 lead. Not the best scenario for substitutes, particularly when our bench isn't what it used to be.</strong><hr></blockquote>
We were using this formation, I think:
Scholes Veron Fortune
Ole Ruud Giggs

Surely it would have been better to have done:
Davis Scholes Fortune Richardson
Ruud Forlan

as Giggs wasn't defending at all, which Richardson can as well as giving him a chance to create the killing goal, while moving Scholes into the middle alongside Forlan would have added more steel than Veron - and Forlan might have added to his goal scoring run on a day that Ole seemed unlikely to score on.

 

[antohan]

I get your point but there are many other implications (particularly with the likelihood of them getting the equaliser):

1) How would you feel as a young Richardson/Davis coming on and losing 2 points? Wouldn't everyone blame the substitutions (i.e. them, indirectly)?

2) Once the substitutions are blamed, what authority does the manager have to tell the ones substituted (e.g. Giggs) that they were piss-poor?

If anything, I would have substituted Giggs for Forlan (pulling him back to midfield).

Fact is, we used to have excellent players in the bench, all handy options at any point (Ole, Teddy, Butt, PN, Johnsen...). Now we don't.

 

[farawaylands]

Originally posted by antohan:
<strong>Fact is, we used to have excellent players in the bench, all handy options at any point</strong><hr></blockquote>

you can't be handy unless you can get on the pitch.

 

[antohan]

Originally posted by farawaylands:
<strong>
you can't be handy unless you can get on the pitch.</strong><hr></blockquote>

<img src="confused.gif" border="0">

 

[RUnited]

Originally posted by antohan:
<strong>

</strong><hr></blockquote>

what farawaylands is trying to say is that they can't become handy unless they get their chances on the pitch..

you can't expect to buy in all the handy players.. many of our handy substitutes were developed from young from our own club.. it's probably games like these they we should have let them show their worth.. when clearly some our starting line up were not.

 

[antohan]

Originally posted by RUnited:
<strong>
you can't expect to buy in all the handy players.. many of our handy substitutes were developed from young from our own club.. it's probably games like these they we should have let them show their worth.. when clearly some our starting line up were not.</strong><hr></blockquote>

My point was we used to look at the bench and see Ole, Teddy, Butt... It was a stronger bench, you can't deny that.

I don't agree about this being the kind of game for the youngsters. If they go in and pull it off, great. But it was a lot more likely that we would be putting a lot of responsibility on their shoulders and would still draw despite their best efforts.

If the more senior players can't handle the game let them take the drop and leave the pitch in shame, not the youngsters.

I guess it's a matter of opinion on how to educate and discipline.

 

[RUnited]

Originally posted by antohan:
<strong>

My point was we used to look at the bench and see Ole, Teddy, Butt... It was a stronger bench, you can't deny that.

I don't agree about this being the kind of game for the youngsters. If they go in and pull it off, great. But it was a lot more likely that we would be putting a lot of responsibility on their shoulders and would still draw despite their best efforts.

If the more senior players can't handle the game let them take the drop and leave the pitch in shame, not the youngsters.

I guess it's a matter of opinion on how to educate and discipline. </strong><hr></blockquote>

i understand your point.. but since strengthening the squad with 4-5 more players valued at under 3-5m isn't in SAF plans then i guess it'd be appropriate to train our youngsters for this job.

 

[farawaylands]

Originally posted by antohan:
<strong>

If the more senior players can't handle the game let them take the drop and leave the pitch in shame, not the youngsters.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

when do these youngsters get a chance then? the league cup only? i think o'shea has been introduced at the right time but it could be seen only because rio has had injuries. what about rooney? i know everyone's raving on about him, but it's not like moyes put him in when everton were 6-0 up or something. you have to take the gamble...
if we had the game under control at 3-0 and SAF put in the young lads then already they are seen as somewhat useless, just out there to run around because they have more energy. but if he puts them in when we need them, then what kind of effort do you think they'd pull out for him? if from 3-0 down the opposition tied it back up or won then we could be pissed at SAF's subs...but when we are 1-0 up with our back's against the wall, against a team who realistically we COULD have dominated, a sub or two would have helped.
at any rate i think OT needs a little bit of a new excitement. and not excitement that costs 30 million pounds...that's expectation not excitement. i mean every time veron scores, we usually sigh a relief and say "thank god"...instead of "my god!" (granted this isn't always the case).

 

[RUnited]

Originally posted by farawaylands:
<strong>

when do these youngsters get a chance then? the league cup only? i think o'shea has been introduced at the right time but it could be seen only because rio has had injuries. what about rooney? i know everyone's raving on about him, but it's not like moyes put him in when everton were 6-0 up or something. you have to take the gamble...
if we had the game under control at 3-0 and SAF put in the young lads then already they are seen as somewhat useless, just out there to run around because they have more energy. but if he puts them in when we need them, then what kind of effort do you think they'd pull out for him? if from 3-0 down the opposition tied it back up or won then we could be pissed at SAF's subs...but when we are 1-0 up with our back's against the wall, against a team who realistically we COULD have dominated, a sub or two would have helped.
at any rate i think OT needs a little bit of a new excitement. and not excitement that costs 30 million pounds...that's expectation not excitement. i mean every time veron scores, we usually sigh a relief and say "thank god"...instead of "my god!" (granted this isn't always the case).</strong><hr></blockquote>

i agree... however i'm now seeing it in a different way.. i think at the current rate we're going SAF has all the rights to fear that substitutions could backfire. it's quite clear he may have made a mistake not using any substitutes, but in a fast-paced game like that it would have been a big gamble - maybe too big too take when you're 10 points behind league leaders. We're not exactly crusing at the top that we could give our youngsters a run out..

i'd love to see SAF start his gambling with players again though.. it'd inject more nail-biting effect into the game! and if it works, then we will find our new superstars among our own youth.. best thing that will happen IMO..

 

[devilish]

HEEEELLLOO Had you noticed the fact that WE DONT HAVE SUBSTITUTES?

We seriously lack of strength in depth and when injury strikes ( it is more natural that it strikes rather than it dont)or a player suffer from lack of form we have only 3 options.

1 Either play a youngster that should be loaned rather than be sent in the Manutd's pitch (Richardson)

2 Bring in a player which is not Manutd's level and will NEVER BE(P NEV, FORLAN)

3 Play a star out of position ( For example Giggs as a forward)

Its obvious that all the three options hinders Manutd's performances.

We have players that even if they come in the pitch and do not perform we cannot replace them ( because we dont have the talent to do so.

For example Would you play Chadwick and Forlan instead of an out of form Becks and RVN? (in an important game)

You know the answer.

The time when we could afford to pull out two from the bench and change a game (CL FINAL) are over. We dont have world class players on the bench any more and that is why we lack of motivation and had become predictable.