What does ETH demand of his midfield.

[Trex]

In the first season it seem more like the Pep set up with Eriksen and Bruno although not with the high press and with less emphasis on maintaining possession, I felt this (the lack of high press) was due to the fact Casemiro and Eriksen especially not having the legs for it, I expected United to target an Eriksen With more mobility profile but we got Mount who is simply not the type to orchestrate play like Eriksen. Now It seems like our midfield target is Ugarte who like Mount will bring energy and dynamism but not that element to dictate play.
It's beginning to feel like ETH wants to create a midfield to simply win back the ball and quickly release to the forwards. Would this get the best out of Kobbie, is Wilcox and Ashworth backing this approach and would this be effective enough to get us back to the top of English and European football?

 

[Drainy]

I feel like he views midfield as less important to passing ball progression compared with other managers.

He has a usual view that one is an 8 and supports the attack when in an attacking phase and the other a 6 that sits in the rest defence.

In building from the back they focus on keeping a shape to create out balls for the defence, primarily to create new angles for the defence to play balls into the wide players and ten when they drop deeper to present for the ball, however he does seem to give permission to run with the ball if space to do so and doesn't mean they can't do progressive passing, just are expected to be lower risk with the ball.

 

[In Absentia]

I think he is trying to get us to win it back and release. I’m alright with that if it’s done well, but he sets the midfield up terribly. The 4-2-3-1 doesn’t help, but that’s not an excuse. If it doesn’t look better after three games, I want him gone. We don’t have time to wait for whatever idea he’s trying to get working. If his idea is the same as it was last season then he’s got to go.

 

[JJ12]

I think he is trying to get us to win it back and release. I’m alright with that if it’s done well, but he sets the midfield up terribly. The 4-2-3-1 doesn’t help, but that’s not an excuse. If it doesn’t look better after three games, I want him gone. We don’t have time to wait for whatever idea he’s trying to get working. If his idea is the same as it was last season then he’s got to go.

Three games

 

[Blood Mage]

Three games

Why not when we already have plenty of evidence from last season too? He should have been sacked in May and I'm puzzled as to why Ineos have given him a second chance. It's a stay of execution nothing more.

 

[VP89]

Hes very big on the off ball work it seems. Players capable of counter pressing and having good positional sense for rest defence. On the ball it appears he wants players comfortable with one touch football. Ponderous or less proactive players don't seem to be favoured, which is why he just repositioned McTominay further up the pitch last season, loaned out Hannibal etc.

I think hel warm to Collyer a lot. Physically fit and very proactive out of possession is key to Ten Hag.

 

[JJ12]

Why not when we already have plenty of evidence from last season too? He should have been sacked in May and I'm puzzled as to why Ineos have given him a second chance. It's a stay of execution nothing more.

Because 3 games is not the measuring stick for anybody. They aren't keeping him only to give him 3 games.

People have lost the plot.

 

[In Absentia]

Three games

Three games, why not? That’s three on top of the thirty eight from last season. You can add the final twelve from his first season, too. I like Ten Hag and want him to work out, but the way he sets up the midfield is wrong, and it has been for a long time. If the first three games are bad, let’s not wait around.

 

[LankyHoggie]

Essentially the same thing that SAF and every other manager we had since bar LvG demanded, get the ball to our forwards as quickly as possible?
LVG was the only one who really tried to challenge the “footballing culture” of the club and he found it quite hard.

It’s probably much more difficult to change a style of play that is so deep rooted in a massive historical club as opposed to say, Man City or Chelsea.
Although Pep did manage that at Bayern.

Based on all accounts it was basically frowned upon to pass it backwards and sideways in SAF’s days, even in training.
Obviously football has changed quite a bit since, but I don’t think Klopp’s intent was much different, or Ancelotti’s or Zidane’s or Conte’s to name a few.

Eventually, there’s two options for ETH.
Stick with what works, a double pivot, have a respectful and decent season, hopefully win a cup and end up playing CL football next season.
Or stubbornly try to make the suicidal 4-1-5 work and get sacked by Christmas.
Imo.

 

[Hammondo]

In the first season it seem more like the Pep set up with Eriksen and Bruno although not with the high press and with less emphasis on maintaining possession, I felt this (the lack of high press) was due to the fact Casemiro and Eriksen especially not having the legs for it, I expected United to target an Eriksen With more mobility profile but we got Mount who is simply not the type to orchestrate play like Eriksen. Now It seems like our midfield target is Ugarte who like Mount will bring energy and dynamism but not that element to dictate play.
It's beginning to feel like ETH wants to create a midfield to simply win back the ball and quickly release to the forwards. Would this get the best out of Kobbie, is Wilcox and Ashworth backing this approach and would this be effective enough to get us back to the top of English and European football?

I can't see how we were set up anything like a pep team. We were a counter attacking team who didn't care about possession.

 

[Herman Toothrot]

Because 3 games is not the measuring stick for anybody. They aren't keeping him only to give him 3 games.

People have lost the plot.

I agree that three games is a silly yardstick considering we've given him another year. But United have been absolute dogshit since February 2023. I'd lost my patience and hoped, but didn't believe, it would improve since December. It didn't. His apologists are forever saying 'more time'. Well, he has more time. He'll need more than three games, but how many does he need? First ten will be crucial, after that we'll potentially be at the writing-off-the-season stage.

 

[sunama]

Because 3 games is not the measuring stick for anybody. They aren't keeping him only to give him 3 games.

People have lost the plot.

He's had 3 full seasons already and it is evident that after spending huge amounts of money, he is not capable of getting the results we need.
In fact, if you'd told him that after spending £400M (or whatever it is), if you get 8th place, should you be fired?
Even he'd say, "Yes, absolutely".

He knows that he is very lucky to still be in a job.

 

[sunama]

I agree that three games is a silly yardstick considering we've given him another year. But United have been absolute dogshit since February 2023. I'd lost my patience and hoped, but didn't believe, it would improve since December. It didn't. His apologists are forever saying 'more time'. Well, he has more time. He'll need more than three games, but how many does he need? First ten will be crucial, after that we'll potentially be at the writing-off-the-season stage.

I don't believe that anything will change.
If he spent another £300M, the football will still be similar to what you see today. The only difference would be "individual brilliance".
ETH is a busted flush and it would be best for him to move onto another country - I hear Bayern Munich are desperate for him to join them.

 

[Sandikan]

He's had 3 full seasons already

How are you working this out?

 

[VP89]

He's had 3 full seasons already

How are you working this out?

 

[El Jefe]

In the first season it seem more like the Pep set up with Eriksen and Bruno although not with the high press and with less emphasis on maintaining possession, I felt this (the lack of high press) was due to the fact Casemiro and Eriksen especially not having the legs for it, I expected United to target an Eriksen With more mobility profile but we got Mount who is simply not the type to orchestrate play like Eriksen. Now It seems like our midfield target is Ugarte who like Mount will bring energy and dynamism but not that element to dictate play.
It's beginning to feel like ETH wants to create a midfield to simply win back the ball and quickly release to the forwards. Would this get the best out of Kobbie, is Wilcox and Ashworth backing this approach and would this be effective enough to get us back to the top of English and European football?

His midfield setup from the very beginning has never been good. The level of how well it operates has always been based on individual ability. Casemiro in his first season and Mainoo last season did a lot of heavy lifting. Fred and Eriksen did help quite a bit at separate points on 22/23 but it was still heavily dependant on Casemiro. One starter in MF being out can completely change how we operate as a team. Other top teams play the same way no matter who is in the team because that's how they've been coached how to play.

As you mention last season, he doubled down on trying to win the ball high up but the positional play and discipline of the team was woeful out of possession. I'm keen to see what he adopts this season but the main problem with our current CM options is they aren't ideal for any style of play because other than Mainoo they all have key weaknesses in possession and/or athleticism to cover spaces in midfield.

 

[CM]

I had some sympathy with ten Hag in the first season because we'd lost Matic and Pogba in the window he arrived and then missed out on de Jong, so we had to make do with some 'creative' solutions like Eriksen to plug the gaps. As soon as he went balls to the wall for Mason Mount last summer, he completely lost me. You need to have some intent to keep the ball and control games and there was no indication that ten Hag was even slightly interested in doing that at any point last season.

It doesn't look like much has changed in that respect after an entire season of failure either. I don't understand how you can even begin to try to control games in the way we need to with the collection of midfielders we have, even if you add the players we've been linked to in midfield like Ugarte. It's a huge concern for me.

 

[Redstain]

I agree with some of the sentiments posted, I was dismayed at why yet again another manager has failed to equip United to strategically overrun the midfield areas. It is the bread and butter of the modern day era to be highly competitive.

It also doesn't exclusively refine a team to be possession orientated but having an extra man in the spaces will inevitably create more chances with the opposition having to cover the area they are exposed, opening up room for an attacker to exploit or a wider individual to overlap. Look at the difference for instance with Mainoo's performance for England against every other team and then with Spain. It's not like Rodri man-marked him in his zone, Spain overran the midfield and we witnessed a performance with Kobbie playing within 40-60% of himself. If United did this consistently against the opposition imagine how much you can limit teams by offsetting their balance in the midfield.

The first season worked well with Eriksen, Casemiro and Bruno it wasn't perfect but you had two players who could break the lines (including Martinez) and that's where Rashford came of age. That double pivot system was the best that Erik instilled and the critical mistake was not correctly replacing Eriksen, opting for Mount was a poor decision on the basis of improving what previously worked (not that he's a bad player) and then using two advanced 8's in a system the following year where neither player are defensively responsible put too much emphasis on the 6 having to become superman.

It's not a coincidence that the last three games of the season where United picked up wins and a cup coincided with the decision to revert to the pivot, the same decision that made Amrabat look a half decent player from the previous system he was deployed in and would likely have seen Casemiro play significantly better if he wasn't covering the center half position due to injury.

 

[ifightdragons]

He certainly doesn't value possession or control in games, that's for sure.

We still show no signs of actually wanting to even try to dominate possession or dictate tempo in any game we play, unless it's against a team that's happy to park the bus.

Press us, and we're just as poor as we've been for the last 6-10 years.

 

[ZIDANE]

He did want to buy Frenkie de Jong, there aren't many players like that around but he could definitely play more possession based so I believe it's a mixture of players and tactics - squeezing the distance between attack and defence, playing out/starting attacks from defence/gk, etc. We lost so many late goals because we couldn't control a game so aside from fit defenders it's probably our biggest area of improvement required.

 

[eire-red]

In the first season it seem more like the Pep set up with Eriksen and Bruno although not with the high press and with less emphasis on maintaining possession, I felt this (the lack of high press) was due to the fact Casemiro and Eriksen especially not having the legs for it, I expected United to target an Eriksen With more mobility profile but we got Mount who is simply not the type to orchestrate play like Eriksen. Now It seems like our midfield target is Ugarte who like Mount will bring energy and dynamism but not that element to dictate play.
It's beginning to feel like ETH wants to create a midfield to simply win back the ball and quickly release to the forwards. Would this get the best out of Kobbie, is Wilcox and Ashworth backing this approach and would this be effective enough to get us back to the top of English and European football?

First summer EtH's main target was De Jong, so I think we are witnessing a needs must approach, rather than a deliberate ploy.

EtH is not married to total football, like many of us (including me) assumed, simply because he came from Ajax. I think he'd rather have a Rodri / De Jong / Tony Kroos in his team than not, because De Jong was his first ever target and you can see with signings like Onana and Martinez his wish is to play posession-based, dominant football.

I think quite simply, the players to execute this do not exist, especially in midfield. I can't think of a player remotely similar to a Rodri, Kroos, De Jong etc that is currently available, and looks suited to the PL. Therefore, I think EtH has adopted this approach that you have noted. I think all he cares about is winning, under any approach necessary, and he's struggling to find the right balance in midfield currently. Reminds me a little of the 433 under Klopp, with a workman-like midfield. But we don't have the wing backs or attack to support this type of approach, and miss a Fabinho like player desperately.

What's bizzare to me is why you would sell a player like Fred if this is how you wanted to set up your midfield.

 

[Garnacho's Shoelaces]

How are you working this out?

 

[Telsim]

Midfield?

 

[Bobski]

It is not even that Utd need to become a full blown possession team, but even direct teams need the option to slow the game down and allow the players to rest. I don't think there are any midfielders in the world who can cover the ground this system expects of them while also having the quality on the ball to play the progressive passes needed to make it work. It is no wonder the midfield so often looked fecked, there are no rest periods built in for them to take a breath, sprint, sprint, sprint and produce high quality immediately when on the ball. It is not sustainable and automatically leads to erratic performances and results.

I don't think Ten Hag has ever really adapted his approach to the realities of not being in Holland anymore, creates a style that requires elite levels of athleticism, but generally hasn't targeted that type of player.

 

[JJ12]

He's had 3 full seasons already and it is evident that after spending huge amounts of money, he is not capable of getting the results we need.
In fact, if you'd told him that after spending £400M (or whatever it is), if you get 8th place, should you be fired?
Even he'd say, "Yes, absolutely".

He knows that he is very lucky to still be in a job.

If any of you think he's going after 3 games then all the best to you.

In no way is that going to be a barometer, no matter how bad it is.

 

[didz]

He'll end up roughly back at free 8s ahead of a single pivot eventually, I think. If we're able to play a high line with defenders who can eat up ground and thereby lessen the space the midfielders have to cover then there shouldn't be too much of an issue with that provided the players are up to it.

He also seems to favour a man-orientated press, which will always look a bit messy up against teams with good dribblers in their own midfield. I'd say that preference is a bigger sticking point, since practically every team in the league has at least somebody in the middle who can beat a player, while our own midfielders aren't great at stopping people going past them 1v1. That was mitigated somewhat by the 4222 thingy we ended last season on, since we could usually go man-for-man and still have somebody else to cover or double up.

As to the Mainoo question, I imagine he's probably Ten Hag's favourite player in the squad. The fact that Kobbie can carry the ball really well means he can cause a bit of chaos in opposing defensive structures in transition. Ten Hag has consistently liked having a player who does that in his sides.

 

[JJ12]

I agree that three games is a silly yardstick considering we've given him another year. But United have been absolute dogshit since February 2023. I'd lost my patience and hoped, but didn't believe, it would improve since December. It didn't. His apologists are forever saying 'more time'. Well, he has more time. He'll need more than three games, but how many does he need? First ten will be crucial, after that we'll potentially be at the writing-off-the-season stage.

If it's as bad as last season early on I don't think he'll see past Christmas, but even having this conversation after a few pre season games just tells you where the fans are at.

 

[JJ12]

I don't believe that anything will change.
If he spent another £300M, the football will still be similar to what you see today. The only difference would be "individual brilliance".
ETH is a busted flush and it would be best for him to move onto another country - I hear Bayern Munich are desperate for him to join them.

Bayern are desperate for him but Sunama thinks he's a busted flush. Pretty much sums it up.

 

[Dannn411]

Because 3 games is not the measuring stick for anybody. They aren't keeping him only to give him 3 games.

People have lost the plot.

Good thing he is not being judged on 3 games or 10 games or 19 games but two seasons plus whatever number of games people still want to give him a chance for. You genuinely think rhat if we are 8th by December they will just close their eyes and do nothing? Better wake up. He got saved by the unlikeliest of cup final wins otherwise he would have been gone next day. He is playing with house money and has zero room for error.

 

[flameinthesun]

I think what he demands is (from all positions on the pitch) two things, the ability to take the ball in congested spaces as well as the ability to press aggresively up the pitch. Its why I think the team needs less of a carrick type midfielder (who despite his amazing passing did struggle when pressed) and instead aggresive midfielders who are comfortable in the congested spaces (Ugarte looks like he potentially can fulfill that role). To me the tactics rely on the team being synchronised with aggression, pressing and passing through the lines. Its why we see such a drop off when Martinez is out for example (whoever comes in doesn't provide the same aggression or penetration). Its also leaning me more towards wanting us to get Branthwaite over De Ligt for the fact he can play LCB like how EtH would want in the absence of Martinez.

Taking the pre season game against Arsenal, part of the reason we looked good in the first 15/20 minutes as well as parts of the rest of the second half was we could fire the ball into an Amad for example who even when pressed could keep the ball or beat it, similar to Amas and even Mount. We know this however from Mainoo last season. The minute you have a player who can take the ball in any position, whether surrounded or not it completely changes the game. The likes of Mainoo, Amad, Martinez, Shaw (Amas yesterday), Zirkee, Mount, Yoro, dalot can all do that. We just need a bit more depth in terms of those style of players.

 

[DWelbz19]

First summer EtH's main target was De Jong, so I think we are witnessing a needs must approach, rather than a deliberate ploy.

EtH is not married to total football, like many of us (including me) assumed, simply because he came from Ajax. I think he'd rather have a Rodri / De Jong / Tony Kroos in his team than not, because De Jong was his first ever target and you can see with signings like Onana and Martinez his wish is to play posession-based, dominant football.

I think quite simply, the players to execute this do not exist, especially in midfield. I can't think of a player remotely similar to a Rodri, Kroos, De Jong etc that is currently available, and looks suited to the PL. Therefore, I think EtH has adopted this approach that you have noted. I think all he cares about is winning, under any approach necessary, and he's struggling to find the right balance in midfield currently. Reminds me a little of the 433 under Klopp, with a workman-like midfield. But we don't have the wing backs or attack to support this type of approach, and miss a Fabinho like player desperately.

What's bizzare to me is why you would sell a player like Fred if this is how you wanted to set up your midfield.

All due respect, I think the idea of him suddenly throwing away the idea of ball retention and ball circulation in midfield just because he couldn’t get De Jong is nonsense. There’s also no indication (outside of his initial interest in his former player) that suggests ten Hag wants any sort of profile similar to him in his midfield.

Look at the players we’ve been linked to all summer — outside of Ugarte (who currently plays in a Luis Enrique hyper possession system), they’re all workmen type all action midfielders who aren’t huge passing players. Hjulmand, Rabiot, Fofana etc. and even Ugarte is getting let go because he can’t play in that style of football.

Ten Hag just doesn’t value possession anywhere near as highly as initially anticipated. Look who his key midfield signing was the summer he was allowed to spend large sums of money in that area — an off the ball counter-presser. Ten Hag wants his midfield to press high, win second balls, and intentionally leave gaps to try and benefit on counters. He doesn’t care for his midfield controlling possession and averaging high passes per game.

Agree with the point on Fred. The one player who would have benefited in this frantic chaotic system is the first player he let go…

 

[Godfather]

No idea honestly. We look hopeless under him in the middle of the park.
We need new faces there sure but I'm not sure EtH's will change all that much even then...

 

[Rozay]

Essentially the same thing that SAF and every other manager we had since bar LvG demanded, get the ball to our forwards as quickly as possible?
LVG was the only one who really tried to challenge the “footballing culture” of the club and he found it quite hard.

It’s probably much more difficult to change a style of play that is so deep rooted in a massive historical club as opposed to say, Man City or Chelsea.
Although Pep did manage that at Bayern.

Based on all accounts it was basically frowned upon to pass it backwards and sideways in SAF’s days, even in training.
Obviously football has changed quite a bit since, but I don’t think Klopp’s intent was much different, or Ancelotti’s or Zidane’s or Conte’s to name a few.

Eventually, there’s two options for ETH.
Stick with what works, a double pivot, have a respectful and decent season, hopefully win a cup and end up playing CL football next season.
Or stubbornly try to make the suicidal 4-1-5 work and get sacked by Christmas.
Imo.

Good post.

 

[thisisnottaken1]

No idea honestly. We look hopeless under him in the middle of the park.
We need new faces there sure but I'm not sure EtH's will change all that much even then...

Yup. I hope that INEOS are ruthless with him and sack him sooner rather than later. They’ve given him a second chance, he’s on thin ice, and if he fecks it up I hope they punish him.

 

[JJ12]

Good thing he is not being judged on 3 games or 10 games or 19 games but two seasons plus whatever number of games people still want to give him a chance for. You genuinely think rhat if we are 8th by December they will just close their eyes and do nothing? Better wake up. He got saved by the unlikeliest of cup final wins otherwise he would have been gone next day. He is playing with house money and has zero room for error.

What has December got to do with 3 games? You've made up an argument with yourself by there. Fair play.

 

[pcaming]

The sooner everyone realises he is not a great coach the sooner we can be done with all of this.

 

[Yakuza_devils]

The sooner everyone realises he is not a great coach the sooner we can be done with all of this.

We don't have great faith in him due last season. But we need to give Ineos Team a chance. We need to trust them when they say we already have the best coach in ETH after looking around in the market.

However, he needs to stop playing basketball suicidal tactics this year!

 

[Ekeke]

Seems like the same as Ole and running is right up there for him.

Not to say Passing isnt important because we signed Casemiro and Eriksen who are both capable of good passing, they just dont have the elite levels of output and dominate games with it. They can still play a nice ball over the top or a key pass at times, just less. But we also continued to use Fred and McTominay and now bringing Collyer through as well as having a few players who can find a nice pass. Ugarte will be a top ball winner which we probably expected when we signed Casemiro rather than him wanting to get forward and score goals like his first season.

Seems like he's fairly content with the couple of players who can pass fairly well - Casemiro on a good day (and even if not on a good day he still plays the most passes in the team), Eriksen and Mainoo, give or take Amrabat staying or leaving and if he has a good day. And we dont look like signing a passer unless some of those players leave. Also not a priority to develop a young midfield who is focused on his passing as it looks like Collyer is going to get some games and his mobility, tracking back and trying to win the ball stand out more.

It is a weird one because since his first season ETH has talked about control and controlling games, often saying he was happy we controlled games when we didnt have the majority of the ball or the opposition had lots of shots and just finish them. So despite his words I think he is okay with us not having the ball as long as we're not behind and to him thats "controlling" phases of the match even if we are just lucky and the opposition didnt take their chances.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Running, tackling, effort, get it to the forwards.

Probably.

 

[Cnaiür urs Skiötha]

I am not sure how much this is based on his ideas but looking at the actual signings this and last summer and rumors it feels as if midfielders and creative wingers looking to passing the ball around a lot are not a priority. He surely doesn’t want to play counterattacking football as preferred style but compared to other teams it is mainly about either winning the ball near the opposition‘s box or getting it across the pitch as fast as possible.