we're playing with a high line and (lack of) creating chances

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According to Stephen Howson this should help us creating chances because the field is narrow and compact and it makes it easier to hit easy passes so we have games and possession under control.

Sounds logical enough BUT why don't we create chances then?

Before you guys think I'm nuts. I'm talking about the games vs west ham and Newcastle etc not Spurs, that was bloody epic. I think everyone can agree that our attack has been very underwhelming in most games this season despite having very expensive talents.
 
wangyu said:
According to Stephen Howson this should help us creating chances because the field is narrow and compact and it makes it easier to hit easy passes so we have games and possession under control.

Sounds logical enough BUT why don't we create chances then?

Before you guys think I'm nuts. I'm talking about the games vs west ham and Newcastle etc not Spurs, that was bloody epic. I think everyone can agree that our attack has been very underwhelming in most games this season despite having very expensive talents.
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Because we have essentially zero strikers.
 
Lack of technical ability in tight spaces and to have guile. Also we are really impatient.
 
I don't buy the lack of technical ability in tight spaces. Sancho, Ronaldo and Antony have excellent control over the ball, they love combinations in theory because it clearly isn't working.
 
Didn't the stats say we aren't actually playing with a high line at all, if anything it's the opposite?
 
wangyu said:
I don't buy the lack of technical ability in tight spaces. Sancho, Ronaldo and Antony have excellent control over the ball, they love combinations in theory because it clearly isn't working.
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Martial is going to tie the attack together way better than Ronaldo or Rashford if he can get and stay fit. I’d actually put money on it going on how sharp he looked in preseason. I think he’s probably very happy to be here again… I also feel like it’s the major problem in our squad that the players have shown themselves to be quite fickle under pressure or adversity but that’s for another post. We still need another more physical striker and we need Sancho to majorly step it up in intensity and risk taking. The rest of the team is showing solid form.
 
Adam-Utd said:
Didn't the stats say we aren't actually playing with a high line at all, if anything it's the opposite?
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Stats can be manipulated. We definitely did not play high in the last 15 minutes against west ham, for example.
 
-Time. Teams implementing sophisticated styles always experience this exact problem in their first year. Breaking down low blocks takes a lot of drilling but the rewards are worth it.
-Talent- Our central area has an abundance of passing talent but could do with more of the type of on-ball talent for breaking teams down, close touch control for give and gos and short link up combinations, hold up play, dribbling and ball carrying. I'd bin CR for a striker that actually brings any one of the above.
 
Remember the geese said:
He's just dripping with self-importance. Manages a Sunday league team and talks as if he's some great tactical innovator. A bit cringe. Nothing at all against your post btw :)
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Aren't we all dripping with self importance on here :lol:
But yeah this is a bit how he comes across on the YouTube videos. But if he is confident he is confident, good for him guess
 
mu4c_20le said:
Stats can be manipulated. We definitely did not play high in the last 15 minutes against west ham, for example.
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I think this was attributed to negative substitutions. Taking off Eriksen and Martinez didn't help at all (I think)
 
Adam-Utd said:
Didn't the stats say we aren't actually playing with a high line at all, if anything it's the opposite?
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Yes, that’s what I thought too. I’m sure the end goal is a high line but it’s very personnel dependent.
 
I think a lot of it is down to playing a natural LW at striker and having to play out of form attackers due to injuries.
 
wangyu said:
Aren't we all dripping with self importance on here :lol:
But yeah this is a bit how he comes across on the YouTube videos. But if he is confident he is confident, good for him guess
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Good point :lol: It's just something about him and McKola that rubs me up the wrong way. I can laugh at Goldbridge because he's a bit of a Partridge-like character and not to be taken seriously.
 
It's hard to emphasise enough just how much our centre-forward options hinder our attack.

Even leaving aside the issue of their quality entirely, none of them excel in properly occupying that central CF role, harassing the opposition centre-backs and providing the sort of direct goal threat that gives the team a focal point to create for. Instead all three have a tendecy to drift out of that central area, usually into the left hand channel, often leaving us without real goal threat in the box.

Martial is the best of them and you only have to think back to how unfavourably his movement was compared to an aging Cavani's in recent years to see the stylistic flaws he has in terms of being a CF who sniffs out high quality chances. Rashford simply isn't a centre forward. And Ronaldo, according to Rangnick a few month ago at least, doesn't want to play as a lone CF either.
 
wangyu said:
According to Stephen Howson this should help us creating chances because the field is narrow and compact and it makes it easier to hit easy passes so we have games and possession under control.

Sounds logical enough BUT why don't we create chances then?

Before you guys think I'm nuts. I'm talking about the games vs west ham and Newcastle etc not Spurs, that was bloody epic. I think everyone can agree that our attack has been very underwhelming in most games this season despite having very expensive talents.
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Slow buildup. Need to move the ball faster and get the ball into our attackers when the opponents dont have 9-10 players behind the ball and set into a solid defensive formation. Also better movement needed from Eriksen and the front players ahead of him to make sure theres always a faster pass available that can progress towards making a chance. Usually we work the ball out to one of the wingers who comes inside and we dont usually have many people making runs in behind or breaking forward from the midfield position. So they find a normal pass and then go back out to their wing position and wait to be given the ball again. And repeat.
 
I'd rather listen to a plain white wall than Mr. Foreign Tourist pub tour charger
 
First things first, Howson must be ignored. He was barely tolerable before, but his notorious comment re Munich was disgusting.
 
Our use of wide areas is generally quite poor. Quite often we only have 1 player out wide and when they receive the ball they have to wait an age for some support and by the time they get support the opposition have shifted over to crowd that side. We very rarely work a 2v1 in a wide area as we have too many players playing narrow. Every game you hope to see us utilise an overlap effectively but it just so rarely happens. I suppose the benefit of having so many players narrow is we can win the ball back easier when we lose it and opposition find it harder to play through us, but we pay the price in an attacking sense.

There was 1 instance in 1st half against West Ham Shaw timed his overlap nicely and he was slid into a dangerous position in the box, he pulled the ball back and it was cut out by a defender. We should be doing this 10 times a game down both wings and we'll score a bucket load from cut backs or balls rolled across the 6 yard box towards the back post.

The 2nd issue is our wingers aren't brave enough 1 on 1 with the opposition full back, and flat out refuse to go down the outside ever. If you can go down the outside you can flash a ball across the 6 yard box or pull it back, and when defenders are worried about the possibility of you going down the outside then it makes cutting in much more effective as they won't be able to over-cover that avenue. Too much playing it safe and just passing the ball backwards slowing the attack down.
 
As Ten Hag said in a Skype interview last week, he has so far focused mainly on defense and midfield. He's pretty happy with how they are doing now, but hasn't been able to touch on offensive much yet - which he said has to come last and is hardest to get right.

So I suppose a good part of the lack of offensive incisiveness comes from that. (And it actually remains to be seen whether United's strikers really are incapable of being successful in Ten Hag's system.)
 
Adam-Utd said:
Didn't the stats say we aren't actually playing with a high line at all, if anything it's the opposite?
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We played deep against Liverpool and Arsenal which probably affected those stats. We have played a high line most of the time since then imo

As for the OP, playing a high line basically means we push the opposition back and they defend deep. We can control possession that way but it can also make it difficult to create chances when the space is so limited
 
From what I’ve seen, we’re not creating enough because:
A)Ronaldo doesn’t have the movement of a lone striker. He’s been a winger/wide forward all his career. When playing CF by himself, he’s too often coming deep and asking the ball to be played into his feet only to pass it back and then make a run towards the center of the goal. This will only work if we cross a ton, and we don’t.
B)Rashford is not a CF either. Only time it works is if he gets space in behind and that doesn’t happen against the smaller teams too often. He has 0 holdup play and lacks the ability to bring others into play with his back to goal.

We need somebody who actually knows how to play CF in the team. Ronaldo can still get the goals with his confidence back and if we cross it more, but the latter won’t happen by the looks of it. Martial will improve the team without a doubt. We do also need our wingers to actually beat their man more often too when 1v1.
 
Because the attacking movements, decisions, instincts takes the longest to develop. We have horrible shot selection as too many players try to play the killer pass or shot too soon. Sancho is one of the few who is very good at keeping play moving, and playing that extra pass - though he's off form and not playing with enough intensity anyway. A big difference will happen when Martial is in, but even then, takes time. But 100% it does not happen when you have a striker like Ronaldo, who butchers attack after attack, who takes shots from horrible positions, who can't make half chances into actual good shots, etc.
 
We will probably get better at creating chances with more time under Ten Hag and getting a quality #9, but I will say that I don't see a ton of other obvious improvements. Our fullbacks and Lisandro, Casemiro, Eriksen and Bruno are all pretty good passing/attacking players. So yeah, I'd say we need 2/4 to occur for us to become a decent goalscoring outfit, but all 4 of the following have to happen for us to score enough goals to be a real title contender:

1. New #9 (or shock Martial healthiness and blossoming but seems unlikely)
2. New LW or one of Sancho, Rashford or Garnacho becomes a 10 goals and assists (Sancho) or 15 goal type (the others)
3. We improve as much over the next year as we have since Ten Hag has been appointed.
4. Bruno gets cooking and becomes the best non-De Bruyne attacking midfielder in the league again despite us not just sitting deep and giving him the star #10 role with tons of space to play, but instead as a #10 who has to find goals and assists in smaller spaces.

We can improve by getting a backup RB and a quality CB backup for Varane, but not sure those changes scream "goals!"

Ajax scored a ton of goals, and I think Ten Hag is focusing on keeping out counter attacks and establishing safe possession first and foremost, but if the first few months are a decent indication, a league winning season from us looks more like 85 goals scored and 30 conceded like the 2 titles City and Liverpool won before last year when both almost hit 100 goals scored.

We really are trying to become a similar team to Pep's City basically. We need another star midfielder, a #9, 2 of Sancho/Rashford/Garnacho to play their best football (or in Garnacho's case to hit his top 25% outcome as a prospect) and quality backups at RB and CB, then we'll see if we're short of goals still and the system gets tweaked.

TLDR: We'll see what happens next year and if we sign De Jong and Osimhen or another quality #9. Need a non-Antony winger to break out on the left like Son, Salah or Mane did for their teams.
 
Who gives a feck what Stephen, the Glazers are as bad as the Munich tragedy, Howson thinks.
 
I never thought a day would come when I say this, but Martial is the difference between us scoring 3 goals vs us scoring 1 goal per match. The current setup we're playing against weaker teams is exactly what will suit him well. Either Maritial or a Martial like player (I mean like as in "way of playing", not as in "injured all the time").
 
Because when Ronaldo plays all the chances get funneled towards him ASAP and we lose any sense of patience and common sense. Players in much better posistions being ignored to try impossible passes to Ronaldo who isn't actually in that good a position and Ronaldo taking pot shots at any half sight of goal he gets rather than trying to work better opportunities.

There is a marked difference in our attacking play when Ronaldo plays and when Ronaldo dosent.
 
Strikers create a lot of disruption in defenses even when they don't have the ball. With our lack of a striker effective when we have possession (Rashford does the job when we're lying deep to counter, Ronaldo is now terrible), we're a very easy team for opposition center-backs to play against IMO. As soon as we have a striker stretching one of those defenders out of shape, we'll see a lot more openings down the centre. As of now, we're still a very cutting in from wide team overall, and the reason we still eke out goals while being relatively predictable is because of the quality we have.
 
Not sure creating chances has been the big issue till the last couple of games or so. It's been the conversation.
 
Longshanks said:
Because when Ronaldo plays all the chances get funneled towards him ASAP and we lose any sense of patience and common sense. Players in much better posistions being ignored to try impossible passes to Ronaldo who isn't actually in that good a position and Ronaldo taking pot shots at any half sight of goal he gets rather than trying to work better opportunities.

There is a marked difference in our attacking play when Ronaldo plays and when Ronaldo dosent.
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Fully agree.
 
Glorio said:
Not sure creating chances has been the big issue till the last couple of games or so. It's been the conversation.
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It's a stage of transition which I think we should be happy about.

First it was the defence - shaky, unstable, slow, prone to counter, poor playing out from the back, keeper didn't sweep. That was sorted out. It no longer features as a discussion unless Maguire plays.

Then it was the midfield & transition. We kept being easily dispossessed, panicked when pressed, couldn't find space to pass into, off the ball positioning was bad. That was sorted out. We barely lose possession being pressed & seem to have little trouble playing the triangles. We only seem to give away the ball when we make bad passes.

Now it's the attack, creating chances in the final third & scoring goals that's the talking point. We know certain things clearly -> Ronaldo is a liability, Sancho isn't anywhere near as good to take us to the next level, Rashford is better than we rated him, Martial (yes, effing Martial ffs) is missed.

It'll take time to reach higher levels, but the trend is quite clear to see. People complaining will keep doing so whatever you throw at them.
 
Hammondo said:
Lack of technical ability in tight spaces and to have guile. Also we are really impatient.
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Which of our forwards doesn't have technical ability? This comments is so 2019. I think the impatience is still a thing, but also there are clear improvements.

I think this will take time to work out some patterns in the final third. It's clear we've been working on isolating fullback 1on1 vs our winger, but they aren't explosive dribblers so we need to get more cohesion.

It's also very difficult to play with Ronaldo up front, but not much easier with Rashford. We need a striker to build attack around him, now whoever plays that role seems detached from the rest of the team. Martial is different and that's why he's been so good in 75mins he played this season.
Glorio said:
Not sure creating chances has been the big issue till the last couple of games or so. It's been the conversation.
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We don't create clear, high xG chances, that is the only problem we have. If we have a lot of low quality chances we should expect 0-0 result now and then.
I believe we have not lost points due to bad finishing this season. You can always say "we should convert more chances", but that's not a big thing for us at the moment - and will be until we get a really standout striker. So yes, creating clear chances is what takes us to next level.
 
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