We don't need "big" players, we just need quality

Glorio

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I hear pundits, ex-players (who are pundits btw), and fans regularly referring to the need for big players or the management of big players when talking about Man United. A typical one being that we need a manager who can manage big players.

I do wonder ... who says we need big players anyway? I don't think we do at all

It's interesting because a lot of the best managers today don't necessarily go for "big" players in terms of status in the game. They go for good, driven players.

Take Pep for instance, City was about big players with star names at the first influx of big money but since he arrived, he's hardly bought any really big names or "egos" through the door. He just finds really good, hungry players and makes them stars. Thus, there are no illusions as to the power dynamic at play. He actually doesn't have many big egos to manage.


In fact, some of the last few big names they were rumoured to be signing, they've left to us in Sanchez and Ronaldo.
Players like De Bruyne, Mahrez, Silva, Dias, Cancelo, etc where quality players but didn't have huge reputations. Definitely nothing like Cavani, Ronaldo, Zlatan, Pogba, Sanchez, even Lukaku. Even today, they don't strike you as stars; more like quality parts of a well oiled machine.

Klopp is the same. Mane, Firmino, Salah, Henderson, even Van Dijk were players who were perhaps ready to take the next step as it were. They then became world beaters under him, and again, it's clear who the boss is.

Both these managers, if anything, subtly move the mammoth reputations (or footballing celebrities) on. Jose in his heydey was a lot less subtle. He'd just take a psychological baseball bat to the current biggest name. In his case though, he'd just replace with other big names! :lol:

Poch was at his best with players who built their reputations under him, and ETH is doing the same. The idea of needing big players with
big personalities to come and save us seems at odds with how the best teams play. In the same way, the idea of needing a manager who can manage big egos is limiting, and perhaps not what we should be doing.

Interestingly in our semi-recent history under SAF, we didn't really have many players with massive reputations come through the door. Becks was the biggest star name for a while and when SAF saw fit, he kicked him out. Veron might have been one but he struggled. Perhaps Ruud? RVP is the one that stood out.
There are lessons to learn here that we're ignoring as a club, I feel.

Granted, I think Ole tried to go back to basics, but perhaps crippled himself with the idea of British hardworking players - who it turns our aren't automatically hardworking by reason of nationality, and are generally too expensive.
 
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100% agree. Our scouting needs to be in a place to identify great players who fit our needs perfectly without them being world renown with a huge marketing brand of their own already to buy them. With fit, I also don't only mean playing wise but personality wise. Players who are consistent, fight till the last second of every game, and don't just down their tools when things get hard.

I somewhere read about Ajax, that a lot of how they recruit and chose players for their youth academy is dependent if they rate them highly in the following areas. Technique, insight, personalty and speed. I feel like we need to develop a similar model like this and if our scouts are of the opinion that a player brings all these attributes in spades we should try to get them no matter how popular that player is.
 
Great post and I've been saying the same. We need smart signings, not big name misfit signings for the sake of selling shirts. We need that more than ever during this transitional period.
 
There are so many people who are suggesting offering strange types of contracts, putting in clauses, or paying them peanuts to show their desire. This is all incorrect.

We need to develop a model that Man City had used, and one that Newcastle will use. Our finances are extremely good, thanks to Woodward, but we are very careless in footballing matters.

We must identify the right type of character when we are recruiting players, but before that we must sign FOOTBALLING PEOPLE to lead us. Man city did the same with ex barca management, and we have to be serious about football.

We are in a very fortunate position where we can still compete, but there's only 1 or 2 years where if we don't do anything then our healthy finances won't be able to compete with oil clubs anymore.
 
We need players who want to make a name for themselves and not the one's who've already made it and therefore want a fat pay cheque.
 
VidaRed said:
We need players who want to make a name for themselves and not the one's who've already made it and therefore want a fat pay cheque.
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The players who want to make a name for themselves will get snapped up by a bigger club who pay them more. Man Utd isn't an attractive club to play for anymore in terms of how we fare with our competitors.

The way is to identify the correct type of player, in terms of attitude and capability, and pay them a good wage
 
Great idea but never happening at United under the Glaziers.

All the other clubs mentioned are run for glory and success, united is for profit only. So we will continue to buy over rated " commercially viable " players who sell shirts and get likes. Ironically another 5 years of this and support will dwindle and the model flops....but the American vampires had had a nice fill
 
Glorio said:
I hear pundits, ex-players (who are pundits btw), and fans regularly referring to the need for big players or the management of big players when talking about Man United. A typical one being that we need a manager who can manage big players.

I do wonder ... who says we need big players anyway? I don't think we do at all

It's interesting because a lot of the best managers today don't necessarily go for "big" players in terms of status in the game. They go for good, driven players.

Take Pep for instance, City was about big players with star names at the first influx of big money but since he arrived, he's hardly bought any really big names or "egos" through the door. He just finds really good, hungry players and makes them stars. Thus, there are no illusions as to the power dynamic at play. He actually doesn't have many big egos to manage.


In fact, some of the last few big names they were rumoured to be signing, they've left to us in Sanchez and Ronaldo.
Players like De Bruyne, Mahrez, Silva, Dias, Cancelo, etc where quality players but didn't have huge reputations. Definitely nothing like Cavani, Ronaldo, Zlatan, Pogba, Sanchez, even Lukaku. Even today, they don't strike you as stars; more like quality parts of a well oiled machine.

Klopp is the same. Mane, Firmino, Salah, Henderson, even Van Dijk were players who were perhaps ready to take the next step as it were. They then became world beaters under him, and again, it's clear who the boss is.

Both these managers, if anything, subtly move the mammoth reputations (or footballing celebrities) on. Jose in his heydey was a lot less subtle. He'd just take a psychological baseball bat to the current biggest name. In his case though, he'd just replace with other big names! :lol:

Poch was at his best with players who built their reputations under him, and ETH is doing the same. The idea of needing big players with
big personalities to come and save us seems at odds with how the best teams play. In the same way, the idea of needing a manager who can manage big egos is limiting, and perhaps not what we should be doing.

Interestingly in our semi-recent history under SAF, we didn't really have many players with massive reputations come through the door. Becks was the biggest star name for a while and when SAF saw fit, he kicked him out. Veron might have been one but he struggled. Perhaps Ruud? RVP is the one that stood out.
There are lessons to learn here that we're ignoring as a club, I feel.

Granted, I think Ole tried to go back to basics, but perhaps crippled himself with the idea of British hardworking players - who it turns our aren't automatically hardworking by reason of nationality, and are generally too expensive.
Click to expand...

Absolutely agree. We need players who are big on quality and big on character. But not big on egos or big on Self.

Modern football requires total committment to the team and to high performance on a week in week out basis.
But in far too many cases, United spend excessive amounts of money on the wrong type of players.
 
We need big mentality that can cope and play consistently
 
First we need new owners who prioritise sporting success. Everything else would then fall into place. Change starts right at the top.
 
Relevated said:
Man city did the same with ex barca management
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This! It's so critical. They signed people who arguably had assembled one of the greatest teams in football ever, people who could be argued were among the best in the business at the time they hired them. What do we instead? We hire a very experienced club builder as an advisor, but give the real power to Woody's buddies and some ex players, all being on their first job in that role. Mates FC y'all. :wenger:
 
I'd love to work at Utd. I imagine nobody ever gets fired regardless of how little work they do.
 
The club management go buying big players to boost revenue through shirt sales, popularity etc. Here, the onus isn't ever on the footballing perspective, money always comes first. As long as this mentality doesn't change inside the club, we will never succeed again, irrespective of who the next manager will be, whoever the next star signing will be.
 
That’s true. But first we need a good manager with a clear idea how to play football which will fit with the club. Then we need good players who wants to play football above anything else and who will follow the manager.
We rarely recruted stars. Ferguson and Busby made most of them.
 
Arka_BleedingRed said:
The club management go buying big players to boost revenue through shirt sales, popularity etc. Here, the onus isn't ever on the footballing perspective, money always comes first. As long as this mentality doesn't change inside the club, we will never succeed again, irrespective of who the next manager will be, whoever the next star signing will be.
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Sadly this is true. The focus of the club should be on football. And that’s a big mistake Woodward made because players won’t change significantly the numbers of shirt sales. People wanting a United shirt will buy one, they will just change the name on it.
 
Agree, we have become a soulless club post fergie where we have come across as desperate to sign big names to create buzz by throwing inflated wages at them and make it feel like they are doing us a favour to join our club rather than feeling humble to play for man united, even during their baron spell Liverpool still felt like a club with soul and could tempt world class players to want to join Liverpool for the right reasons like torres for instance.
 
the common threat through our awful 9 years post-Fergie has been shite management at board and touchline level

That simply must be the first thing to be addressed

players like Di Maria who were great pre and post United pay testament to that

signed for a boat load of money, didnt want to be there, poorly used by LVG, wanted to go

Getting the management right at board and touchline level creates the environment where decent players can be good and good players can be great
 
Redfrog said:
That’s true. But first we need a good manager with a clear idea how to play football which will fit with the club. Then we need good players who wants to play football above anything else and who will follow the manager.
We rarely recruted stars. Ferguson and Busby made most of them.
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We need footballing people at the top to decide the kind of football they want the team to adopt though. It goes beyond the manager. The manager chosen and all the staff really, should then be fit for that purpose.

Some manager shouldn't just be brought in to decide how the club plays, that's how we got into this mess. LVG had a clear idea about how football should be played, Jose did too but it was a massive departure for LVG, then came Ole with something else.

And then they should back the managers fully
 
Glorio said:
We need footballing people at the top to decide the kind of football they want the team to adopt though. It goes beyond the manager. The manager chosen and all the staff really, should then be fit for that purpose.

Some manager shouldn't just be brought in to decide how the club plays, that's how we got into this mess. LVG had a clear idea about how football should be played, Jose did too but it was a massive departure for LVG, then came Ole with something else.

And then they should back the managers fully
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I agree. We will only find a good manager with the right people at the top. But the manager is essential. City and Pool are where they are because of the manager. It’s the most important guy, even more so when the league is so competitive.
 
I agree entirely about this mantra of going for big names over big talents and how poor we are at this, though I’d disagree with the beliefs that Ole somehow changed this.

Look at our signings pre-Ole and they’re clearly based on name value, apart from most of the LVG signings. But then look what happened; Ole came in to ‘change the mentality’, yet from the first summer it was clear that it was more of the same.

Victor Lindelof was our best CB at the time, and the world class scouting system we had decided that Harry Maguire was the best option to partner him! Instead of looking for a speedy CB who was good in the air in order to compliment Lindelof, they go for the England international in the same league who everybody knew about.

Likewise, in the search for a RB, they reportedly had a list of 600 RBs and yet, somehow, managed to settle on the up-and coming RB who’d been getting all of the media attention for his breakthrough season.

Then we spend two years looking for a RW in Sancho, who it now turns out was a LW after all! Now I’m not saying that Sancho wasn’t a good signing, but we still have an issue with RW. We’re there really NO other RWs in the world? Again, with DM, we seem to have held off because the PL proven, media darling, £100m player hasn’t been available - are they seriously suggesting that no other DM in the world could do what Rice does?

It just screams of lazy scouting, not putting effort in to the attributes of a player other than his name!
 
Glorio said:
I hear pundits, ex-players (who are pundits btw), and fans regularly referring to the need for big players or the management of big players when talking about Man United. A typical one being that we need a manager who can manage big players.

I do wonder ... who says we need big players anyway? I don't think we do at all

It's interesting because a lot of the best managers today don't necessarily go for "big" players in terms of status in the game. They go for good, driven players.

Take Pep for instance, City was about big players with star names at the first influx of big money but since he arrived, he's hardly bought any really big names or "egos" through the door. He just finds really good, hungry players and makes them stars. Thus, there are no illusions as to the power dynamic at play. He actually doesn't have many big egos to manage.


In fact, some of the last few big names they were rumoured to be signing, they've left to us in Sanchez and Ronaldo.
Players like De Bruyne, Mahrez, Silva, Dias, Cancelo, etc where quality players but didn't have huge reputations. Definitely nothing like Cavani, Ronaldo, Zlatan, Pogba, Sanchez, even Lukaku. Even today, they don't strike you as stars; more like quality parts of a well oiled machine.

Klopp is the same. Mane, Firmino, Salah, Henderson, even Van Dijk were players who were perhaps ready to take the next step as it were. They then became world beaters under him, and again, it's clear who the boss is.

Both these managers, if anything, subtly move the mammoth reputations (or footballing celebrities) on. Jose in his heydey was a lot less subtle. He'd just take a psychological baseball bat to the current biggest name. In his case though, he'd just replace with other big names! :lol:

Poch was at his best with players who built their reputations under him, and ETH is doing the same. The idea of needing big players with
big personalities to come and save us seems at odds with how the best teams play. In the same way, the idea of needing a manager who can manage big egos is limiting, and perhaps not what we should be doing.

Interestingly in our semi-recent history under SAF, we didn't really have many players with massive reputations come through the door. Becks was the biggest star name for a while and when SAF saw fit, he kicked him out. Veron might have been one but he struggled. Perhaps Ruud? RVP is the one that stood out.
There are lessons to learn here that we're ignoring as a club, I feel.

Granted, I think Ole tried to go back to basics, but perhaps crippled himself with the idea of British hardworking players - who it turns our aren't automatically hardworking by reason of nationality, and are generally too expensive.
Click to expand...

I think you are spot on, OP.
The points made afterwards are great too. It seems really odd to me that those running the club cannot see the sense in this; I hate to say it, but we need to follow the same road being prepared by Arsenal- their future looks bright , with a well coached, young and hungry team on the way up. We, on the other hand, appear mired in endless confusion, still living for former glories, trading on the past and recruiting these ‘ big names’ to quid in on the gravy train.

feck, it’s grim, eh?
 
Most big players have small pp. Thats a fact. They hide behind their agents when things go wrong and demand compensation for it because they have a divine rights to get more when the team or his teammates screw up. They are destined to win!! how dare the club just paying them expensive wages and not winning anything!!!

We dont need those. United in its current state will struggle. We need players that are willing to contribute on the pitch with the least amount of drama.
 
Glorio said:
I hear pundits, ex-players (who are pundits btw), and fans regularly referring to the need for big players or the management of big players when talking about Man United. A typical one being that we need a manager who can manage big players.

I do wonder ... who says we need big players anyway? I don't think we do at all

It's interesting because a lot of the best managers today don't necessarily go for "big" players in terms of status in the game. They go for good, driven players.

Take Pep for instance, City was about big players with star names at the first influx of big money but since he arrived, he's hardly bought any really big names or "egos" through the door. He just finds really good, hungry players and makes them stars. Thus, there are no illusions as to the power dynamic at play. He actually doesn't have many big egos to manage.


In fact, some of the last few big names they were rumoured to be signing, they've left to us in Sanchez and Ronaldo.
Players like De Bruyne, Mahrez, Silva, Dias, Cancelo, etc where quality players but didn't have huge reputations. Definitely nothing like Cavani, Ronaldo, Zlatan, Pogba, Sanchez, even Lukaku. Even today, they don't strike you as stars; more like quality parts of a well oiled machine.

Klopp is the same. Mane, Firmino, Salah, Henderson, even Van Dijk were players who were perhaps ready to take the next step as it were. They then became world beaters under him, and again, it's clear who the boss is.

Both these managers, if anything, subtly move the mammoth reputations (or footballing celebrities) on. Jose in his heydey was a lot less subtle. He'd just take a psychological baseball bat to the current biggest name. In his case though, he'd just replace with other big names! :lol:

Poch was at his best with players who built their reputations under him, and ETH is doing the same. The idea of needing big players with
big personalities to come and save us seems at odds with how the best teams play. In the same way, the idea of needing a manager who can manage big egos is limiting, and perhaps not what we should be doing.

Interestingly in our semi-recent history under SAF, we didn't really have many players with massive reputations come through the door. Becks was the biggest star name for a while and when SAF saw fit, he kicked him out. Veron might have been one but he struggled. Perhaps Ruud? RVP is the one that stood out.
There are lessons to learn here that we're ignoring as a club, I feel.

Granted, I think Ole tried to go back to basics, but perhaps crippled himself with the idea of British hardworking players - who it turns our aren't automatically hardworking by reason of nationality, and are generally too expensive.
Click to expand...

Agreed. If you look at the most successful teams in the League and CL over the past few years, these are teams not necessarily with the biggest star quality, but more teams that are filled with system players i.e good players that fit in a particular system and thrive.

Modern football is all about movement and sequence of.plays based on scenarios. The players tend to need more specific instructions on how to act in specific scenarios than simply being told 'Go out there and show how you are better than them'. The elite players are those who can take in all these instructions and execute them on the pitch in an effective way.

That is why elite managers like Klopp, Pep, Nagelsmann, ETH, Potter etc don't have much trouble in replacing players as well. It's all about the system, sequences of play.
 
It has always been about quality players with a quality mindset. City and Chelsea have been pretty consistent since Fergie left.

They've had a number of managers since, which includes City, who had good squads and structures in place under Mancini and Pellegrini, before Pep. Then came Klopp and Liverpool.

While the manager is important, the quality of players is essential and the identification of managers who complement one another and build off the previous manager is essential.
 
Agree with OP and this is why I want Ten Hag. He identifies players who fit his system and make them better.
 
SAF would quite often give a "big player" a swerve, transfer market wise, if the mentality was wrong for Utd. His psychology is what we miss the most, we was so good at seeing who would cope and who wouldn't.

Our decline is hugely down to people not being up to recognising the role which mentality facilitates success at Utd with the pressure of expectation and subsequently buying players and keeping academy graduates who would have been moved on if SAF was still i/c. The proof is not agreeing to Pogba's demands for game time before he left for Juve, technically amazing just doesn't have the mettle to do it week in week out.

We all know the 'value in the transfer market' excuses he came up with, technically we can see a great midfielder on TV, but he saw the 'human' in these players we cant. Klopp & Pep, are able to identify and buy these players because we are too busy worrying about shirt sales and social media hits.

I think Ralph will straighten it all out over the next two years however.
 
We should sign players like Mane and Salah for liverpool, Son for Tottenham, etc.
None of them were considered superstars or 19 years old young hot prospects when Liverpool and Tottenham snatched them up - find players aged 22-26 putting in good numbers in good leagues who are not yet stars and are desperate to prove themselves, like how we signed van nistelrooy, bruno, Andy Cole, etc.
 
We need to star thinking like a 5th-6th place club aspiring to be a title challenger from top to bottom. Unfortunately we still think like a league-winning club, minus any of the recent benchmarks for new players to live up to. What do you tell a player like Sancho when you sign him? "We need to keep living up to the scrappy hungry United footballing ways that won the league... almost 10 years ago"?
 
VidaRed said:
We need players who want to make a name for themselves and not the one's who've already made it and therefore want a fat pay cheque.
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The up and coming young players will think twice about joining us after seeing how the young, homegrown talents like Rashford, Greenwood, Dean Henderson...being sunk into obscurity.
 
It all starts with hard work, and that for me comes before quality. Get a squad who are willing to run themselves into the ground for the team and each other, and the quality will inevitably shine through. Liverpool and City's players work harder than any other teams players, and that allows for the quality to shine.
 
It’s not the managers who keep asking for these ridiculous players. It’s the board who push for the Ronaldo type signings. They just want the marketing $$$

You used a perfect example saying Man City don’t sign big name players. That’s because they don’t need to attract sponsors or earn any kind of money, they can purely concentrate on football unlike our brand.
 
Agree 100% with OP.
Forget the glazers. They are the concrete at the club. as much as we all despise them they are immovable, until they decide themselves. Lets hope this new regime post Woodward is a success.
If Arnold is true to his word and keeps out of the football decisions, apart from passing the money over then thats a big start.
If Murtough can bring his youth finding and signing success, (and he has bought and brought some decent ones in), along with RR to bringing first team players in, then this can only benefit the squad.
If the next manager is going to be Ten Hag and the board have given due diligence to finding him as the best fit, then this has to be a positive as well.
If he stamps his authority on the players straight away and makes the right decisions who to move on, who will suit and can change to his style, will go towards getting back something like we were when we were competing.
As long as we dont chase ridiculous targets like Rice at over £100 mill all summer, and go for players who fit the team TH wants to build, players like RR identified in Jan who we wouldnt even have looked at under Ole, we can pull the phoenix out of the ashes.
It may take another season or two , but if we can see progress, then it will be worth the wait.
 
This is one of the reasons I still really rate Rangnick in his 'consulting' role. He's gotta see that mentality is crucial, and he has a fantastic record of unearthing gems. Plus Murtough seemed to only want Rangnick, which bodes well for coordination.

The marginal gains of 'big' players isn't worth it anymore. Haaland simply cannot deliver 300m of value to a club, there isn't 300m out there to get for clubs not already at that level, and for those that are he's the icing, not the cake.
 
The scouts need to do there Job, trouble is the UTD hierarchy like there pin ups ie Roony, Ibra, Dimaria, Sanchez, etc. Quality is needed agree and there out there. We need to do another Evra, Vidic, signings noone new much about those. Same needed again.
 
United in sin said:
Great post and I've been saying the same. We need smart signings, not big name misfit signings for the sake of selling shirts. We need that more than ever during this transitional period.
Click to expand...

Yeah had enough of the social media obsessed shirt sellers we have been targeting pretty much since Fergie left
 
I think the reason City players have a low profile is due to the fact they are a smaller club. If De Bruyne had signed for United or Real Madrid he would be considered much higher profile and his marketability would automatically increase.
 
P0GBA said:
I think the reason City players have a low profile is due to the fact they are a smaller club. If De Bruyne had signed for United or Real Madrid he would be considered much higher profile and his marketability would automatically increase.
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Their revenue was the highest in Europe while Utd had slipped to 5th Link
 
The way we are going even our stupid wages won’t attract so called “big players” because we will be in the EL next season and will be challenging for a top 4 position for the next 2/3 years until things change.
 
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