The aim of this poll is to decide who will come up victorious in a hypothetical match between the two teams. ONLY THE PRIME WORLD CUP FORM OF THE PLAYERS IN QUESTION IS CONSIDERED. CLUB FORM IS COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT.
WC All-Time All-Stars QF 3: Cal vs Annah
- Thread starter Polaroid
- Start date
THIS DRAFT IS BASED SOLELY ON WORLD CUP PEAK
FORMATION CHANGE TO CORNER FORMATION REST OF THE GAME
Tactics
The team is built around the incredibly work-rate, tireless stamina and defensive greatness these players have. Leonidas, Stoichkov, Matthäus, Didi, Charlton, Cafu and Facchetti are all known for their ability to both provide world-class offense with an equally impressive defense.
This midfield mixes maybe the finest technical central midfielder in history, Didi(Creative holding DM), with possibly the best powerhouse midfielder in the history, Lothar Matthäus. In front of them they have a combination of the two in Bobby Charlton, who had a powerhouse defensive work-rate, fearsome long-shot and stamina and the excellent passing and ability to surge past player after player with ease of a technical player.
Didi will play his creative holding role where he remains deep using maybe the best range of passing in the history of football.
One of Matthäus defined strengths is his intelligence to know how to be able to push forward in the right moments and not lose defensive stability. Charlton will be fully capable to drop down in the central midfield momentarily if Matthäus has a great chance for goal and the defense isn’t completely safe.
Didi is the only central midfielder who has a Golden Ball in the World Cup history and the best central midfielder in WC history. Incredible stamina, nous for interceptions and one of the best range of passing in the history of football.
“A “wizard”, Didi was an utterly sublime central midfielder who picked passes as effortlessly as he intercepted them. He had incredibly accurate passing, ball control, vision, great stamina and strength.Within minutes of the game against USSR starting, Didi had supplied three through balls to initiate three incredible moves, Gabriel Hanot, the founder of the European Cup, called them “the greatest three minutes ever played”. From that point, they dominated the tournament with Didi dominating every midfield.”
Lothar Matthäus is the only other central midfielder who has had a case for winning the Golden Ball, instead he was just awarded the Silver Ball. With Charlton probably had the greatest long-ranged shots in WC history both netting 7 goals combined where the majority were long-ranged efforts.
Bobby Charlton is the Golden Ball winner of the ’66 World Cup. A free-roled playmaking midfielder in the offense with one of the greatest longshots of all time and one of the best AM’s defensively in World Cup history.
Golden Ball winner, and WC top-scorer, Leonidas has an average of 1.75 goals per game – which effectively ranks him in as the third best goal-scorer in the history of World Cup. He is one of few, who scored in every WC game he ever played in his life. Often ranked as the top 10 best Brazilians of all time and the 2nd best forward after Pele.(Ahead of Ronaldo/Rivaldo/Ronaldinho)
He was much less like his Brazilian legends in style and instead very similar to Messi, both in style and skill-wise, which earned him the nickname “The rubber man”.Leonidas combined it with an unbelievable work-rate and never quit running when in the defense.
Out wide Stoichkov and Ronaldinho are among the most merciless explosive dribblers in history which ranks them so high when ranking all-time wingers. They will use their excellence at alternating between providing width and providing a numerical advantage in the midfield. They are real match-winners which are seen in their statistics with Stoichkov being the top-scorer of the ’94 WC and Ronaldinho scoring or providing an assist per game in average in the tournament - which awarded him part of the team of the tournament for his performances.
Both Facchetti and Cafu were capable of providing width alone without any wingers to help them without sacrificing the defense.
Defense
One can’t compare the defense, player for player but must take in to account the fact that Matthäus, Didi, Stoichkov , Charlton and Leonidas are all top-notch defensively and will make it as easy as they can for my defenders.
Cafu&Facchetti will offer a lot of help for Stam and Vicente from their full-back position in the defense. This will shrink the space that exists in between the defenders and the pace of the full-backs can cover up for the CB’s at times in need.
Vicente was considered by Pele as the best defender he had ever played after their game together. Vicente was part of the team of the tournament for among others his way to nullify Pele which sent Brazil home.
Jaap Stam is stylistically a great match for Vicente due to his combination of a beastlike physique and a fine ability on the ball. This means my entire team is capable with the ball at their feet which is important to not lose possession.
He of course suffers the same fate as Blanc and Lucio in that they weren’t near their best counting WC prime.
Both of my CB’s will draw their strength from the explosively pacey wing-backs help behind the lines which will make the narrow areas very crowded when there are no wide threat to deal with. The goalkeeper Carrizo is also great with his feet and at rushing out to cancel out runs behind the defense.
FORMATION CHANGE TO CORNER FORMATION REST OF THE GAME
Tactics
The team is built around the incredibly work-rate, tireless stamina and defensive greatness these players have. Leonidas, Stoichkov, Matthäus, Didi, Charlton, Cafu and Facchetti are all known for their ability to both provide world-class offense with an equally impressive defense.
This midfield mixes maybe the finest technical central midfielder in history, Didi(Creative holding DM), with possibly the best powerhouse midfielder in the history, Lothar Matthäus. In front of them they have a combination of the two in Bobby Charlton, who had a powerhouse defensive work-rate, fearsome long-shot and stamina and the excellent passing and ability to surge past player after player with ease of a technical player.
Didi will play his creative holding role where he remains deep using maybe the best range of passing in the history of football.
One of Matthäus defined strengths is his intelligence to know how to be able to push forward in the right moments and not lose defensive stability. Charlton will be fully capable to drop down in the central midfield momentarily if Matthäus has a great chance for goal and the defense isn’t completely safe.
Didi is the only central midfielder who has a Golden Ball in the World Cup history and the best central midfielder in WC history. Incredible stamina, nous for interceptions and one of the best range of passing in the history of football.
“A “wizard”, Didi was an utterly sublime central midfielder who picked passes as effortlessly as he intercepted them. He had incredibly accurate passing, ball control, vision, great stamina and strength.Within minutes of the game against USSR starting, Didi had supplied three through balls to initiate three incredible moves, Gabriel Hanot, the founder of the European Cup, called them “the greatest three minutes ever played”. From that point, they dominated the tournament with Didi dominating every midfield.”
” From that point, they dominated the tournament with Didi dominating every midfield. In the semi-final, he scored the goal that put them ahead against France. In the final, he lifted the level in multiple ways.”
“Diditreats the ball lovingly. At his feet, it seems to become a rare and sensitive orchid, which must be looked after with affection and pleasure”, was one of Rodrigues´ particularly descriptive portrayals of the midfielder´s class in possession.”
“Diditreats the ball lovingly. At his feet, it seems to become a rare and sensitive orchid, which must be looked after with affection and pleasure”, was one of Rodrigues´ particularly descriptive portrayals of the midfielder´s class in possession.”
“A midfielder granted all the gifts to prosper in the technocratic brand of football played on the continent in the 1980s, Matthaus could just about do it all. A hard tackler with the positional sense to be both a fine man-marker and creative fulcrum, he possessed great finishing skills augmented by a fierce shot. Later in his career, as his legs lost the energy that had made him so effective, he was able to use his wonderful sense of positioning as one of the last exponents of the dying art of the sweeper.”
He is maybe even best known for his final performance where he man-marked Beckenbauer(Who then was a feared goal-scoring box-to-box midfielder) successfully when England were defending. Ironically enough Beckenbauer also man-marked Charlton at the same time and neither had a great offensive performance. Beckenbauer was after the game quoted saying “England won that day because Charlton was just a little bit better than I was”.
He was much less like his Brazilian legends in style and instead very similar to Messi, both in style and skill-wise, which earned him the nickname “The rubber man”.Leonidas combined it with an unbelievable work-rate and never quit running when in the defense.
Leonidas has an average of 1.75 goals per game in the WC – and was not a finisher/goalscorer but rather a complete forward mainly known for his dribbling and ability to play all across the front.
He also achieved this by scoring in every single game he ever played in the World Cup. He was the top-scorer and was awarded the Golden Ball for being the best player in the tournament.
Ranked in the top 10 best Brazilians of all time and the 2nd best forward after Pele – ahead of players like Ronaldinho, Rivaldo, Rivelino etc. He was picked by two newspapers as the leading striker ahead of Pele – benching the likes of Ronaldo, Romario and Vava when they formed an all-time Brazilian XI. He had the highest goals-per-game in the history of Brazils international team.
"He was as fast as a greyhound, as agile as a cat, and seemed not to be made of flesh and bones at all, but entirely of rubber. He was tireless in pursuit of the ball, fearless, and constantly on the move. He never conceded defeat. He shot from any angle and any position, and compensated for his small height with exceptionally supple, unbelievable contortions, and impossible acrobatics."
He also achieved this by scoring in every single game he ever played in the World Cup. He was the top-scorer and was awarded the Golden Ball for being the best player in the tournament.
Ranked in the top 10 best Brazilians of all time and the 2nd best forward after Pele – ahead of players like Ronaldinho, Rivaldo, Rivelino etc. He was picked by two newspapers as the leading striker ahead of Pele – benching the likes of Ronaldo, Romario and Vava when they formed an all-time Brazilian XI. He had the highest goals-per-game in the history of Brazils international team.
"He was as fast as a greyhound, as agile as a cat, and seemed not to be made of flesh and bones at all, but entirely of rubber. He was tireless in pursuit of the ball, fearless, and constantly on the move. He never conceded defeat. He shot from any angle and any position, and compensated for his small height with exceptionally supple, unbelievable contortions, and impossible acrobatics."
Both Facchetti and Cafu were capable of providing width alone without any wingers to help them without sacrificing the defense.
Ronaldinho is one of the best left wingers in history who in 2002 helped orchestrate one of the most successful attacks in the history of WC - which earned him a part in the team of the tournament. He was his teams main assist provider and managed to score or assist in every game he played in the entire tournament - a rare feat not many has done.
He originated centrally in ’02 but more often than not ventured wide to provide width for his team.
Stoichkov was the top scorer in the WC '94 and was at the same time awarded the Ballon D'Or ahead of players like Maldini, Baresi and Romario.
"Stoichkov played as a Wing forward who was known for his explosive acceleration, speed dribbling and for taking unpredictable shots on goal. He was also notable at taking free kicks and penalties as well as being among the best crossers in the world at his prime and also able to perform in the withdrawn creative role."
He originated centrally in ’02 but more often than not ventured wide to provide width for his team.
Stoichkov was the top scorer in the WC '94 and was at the same time awarded the Ballon D'Or ahead of players like Maldini, Baresi and Romario.
"Stoichkov played as a Wing forward who was known for his explosive acceleration, speed dribbling and for taking unpredictable shots on goal. He was also notable at taking free kicks and penalties as well as being among the best crossers in the world at his prime and also able to perform in the withdrawn creative role."
One can’t compare the defense, player for player but must take in to account the fact that Matthäus, Didi, Stoichkov , Charlton and Leonidas are all top-notch defensively and will make it as easy as they can for my defenders.
Cafu&Facchetti will offer a lot of help for Stam and Vicente from their full-back position in the defense. This will shrink the space that exists in between the defenders and the pace of the full-backs can cover up for the CB’s at times in need.
Vicente was considered by Pele as the best defender he had ever played after their game together. Vicente was part of the team of the tournament for among others his way to nullify Pele which sent Brazil home.
Jaap Stam is stylistically a great match for Vicente due to his combination of a beastlike physique and a fine ability on the ball. This means my entire team is capable with the ball at their feet which is important to not lose possession.
He of course suffers the same fate as Blanc and Lucio in that they weren’t near their best counting WC prime.
Both of my CB’s will draw their strength from the explosively pacey wing-backs help behind the lines which will make the narrow areas very crowded when there are no wide threat to deal with. The goalkeeper Carrizo is also great with his feet and at rushing out to cancel out runs behind the defense.
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Wait, what? And there we were wondering which out of his many midfielders Cal would squeeze onto the pitch. 
Sorry Cal, but this is only going one way for me and I don't know if I'll be back much. Half-arsed tactics as well so kudos to Annah for the effort.
Bobby Charlton looks like the Italia 90 mascot.
Still not completely sold on Annah's central defence and I could see Platini/Pele/Kocsis getting some joy. His team is otherwise terrific though and is nicely balanced too. More than good enough centrally to keep up with Cal's team and dominant on the wings. Going to vote early in this one myself.
Agree with this.
Yeah, Annah needs some major upgrading in central defence but he should be home and dry here and loads of top quality defenders are being released: Passarella, Desailly, Nasazzi, Blanc here and at least two out of Figueroa/Cannavaro or Beckenbauer/Scirea/Kohler.
He'll be laughing his way to the final choosing from that lot.
He'll be laughing his way to the final choosing from that lot.
Great observations and it is very true on both sides. Blanc/Lucio/Leandro/Stam didn't reach their peaks in the World Cup.
Blanc's peak wasn't France 98, but he was pretty fecking good in it, no two ways about it. Agree on the rest.
Aye, voted early here too - I think this one is pretty clear cut. And, yes, the Stam issue is an old one, as it were - but Annah can pick and choose from the top shelf before the semi-final. It's an excellently balanced team he has going here.
Would love to watch this Anonomos side. It will be extremely hard for other team to top this one.
Oh well... looks like 3-5-2 isn't a great idea....
Thanks mate I am happy you appreciate it! Just always thought that it is close to impossible to have players who won't defend in an "all time draft". C.Ronaldo for example defends half-assed because he knows his offense will cancel out the defensive troubles he causes the team.
In a fantasy draft he will let Garrincha roam free though if he won't defend which isn't a viable strategy.
So I am trying to arrange a team that mixes great on the ball ability with a great off the ball one.
Going to hit the sack now I will answer everybody when I wake up.
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Sorry @Cal? but this is just one way traffic for me. You've got a solid team but Annah has somehow created an astonishing team here.
Awesome team Annah, a couple of centre backs and you are laughing.
Wait...Why is this a train wreck for Cal?
His formation is more like a 5-3-2 rather than a 3-5-2. An extra man in defence shielded by Clodoaldo who was a pure DM for Brazil in that WC. Add in Gerson who is more like a deep lying play-maker than a proper CM. On the contraty Annah has 2 attack minded CM's (Matthaus did have Buchwald and Didi had Zito covering up on defensive duties) Again with a crowded defence, Ronaldinho and even Stoichkov would find space at a premium.
Gerson pulling strings from behind and Platini from front with Pele alternating from strike to support, it will give them plenty of opportunities.
It's more like Annah's dribblers vs Cal's passers in the middle and I think Cal has an edge here.
With not so good defensive structure at both ends it will be a goal fest, but I see both teams scoring more than a couple.
His formation is more like a 5-3-2 rather than a 3-5-2. An extra man in defence shielded by Clodoaldo who was a pure DM for Brazil in that WC. Add in Gerson who is more like a deep lying play-maker than a proper CM. On the contraty Annah has 2 attack minded CM's (Matthaus did have Buchwald and Didi had Zito covering up on defensive duties) Again with a crowded defence, Ronaldinho and even Stoichkov would find space at a premium.
Gerson pulling strings from behind and Platini from front with Pele alternating from strike to support, it will give them plenty of opportunities.
It's more like Annah's dribblers vs Cal's passers in the middle and I think Cal has an edge here.
With not so good defensive structure at both ends it will be a goal fest, but I see both teams scoring more than a couple.
The continental rule made things really difficult with me making some terrible 2nd round picks, far too many Europeans left me having to field Lucio to make up the numbers in terms of S Americans. 
The continental rule made things really difficult with me making some terrible 2nd round picks, far too many Europeans left me having to field Lucio to make up the numbers in terms of S Americans.
I know mate I saw it when I counted up your team. I wasn't sure at all how you would line up and I think you did a good job considering that. It is easy to make those mistakes as there are so many restrictions.
This is the 58 formation and even if Zito was more defensive than Didi, one must take in to consideration that they played 4-2-4 which put the maximal defensive requirements on both those 2 midfielders.
Didi is most known as a Creative holding midfielder which in todays words would be a Deep lying playmaker. Which is how he is plays in my team, letting Matthäus play his box to box role. Matthäus on the other hand was a box-to-box but the opposite of a defensive liability. If anything he was better defensively than offensively which is why he is often considered to be the best DM in history when in fact he was a defensively sound box-to-box.
Also like specified in the tactics Matthäus will only go forward if he sees a great chance, if he does Charlton will step down momentarily to open up space anyhow which means he will take the defensive responsibility. Didi and Matthäus has the defense as their number 1 concern and anything offensively is secondary.
Here are the quotes from the OP about Didi's strengths. You will notice that a fair few of them are "defensive" ones that definitely describes a deep lying playmaker stylistically not an offensive CM.(even if he could play that role too)
"“A “wizard”, Didi was an utterly sublime central midfielder who picked passes as effortlessly as he intercepted them. He had incredibly accurate passing, ball control, vision, great stamina and strength."
Here is another one: "He was known for his incredible range of passing and deft reading of the game that constantly turned defence into deadly attack with just one perceptive interception. "
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I think that picture just tells half the tale. The key element that does not come out is Zagallo. His contribution to defense/midfield was more important than his attack (which were excemplary too). He was the major link between Brazilian defence and attack, with the triangle between him, Zito and Pele often resulting in the 1-2's that Pele loved in attack. With Nilton Santos at 37, Zagallo's contribution there is invaluable.....and that is precisely what is lacking in your team, imho. Ronaldinho just does not cut it defensively and against a Cal's packed defense, he will not find it easy to dribble and neither will Stoichkov.
Opinions?
Cheers for the post I think you answer yourself though. Didi is not the one in need of a defensive winger on his side(He has Stoichkov who is a defensively great winger on his side by the way) it is the aging Nilton causing troubles. Didi had to cover up behind Garrincha who never helped defensively whereas Zito and Zagallo formed a great left side together.
Zagallo played highly offensive until the '62 WC when the coach realized what you are pointing out. Here is the '62 version where the coach desired Zagallo to step down because Nilton was aging. Nilton of '62 was not a World-Class left back anymore though. Facchetti is as good of a player as Nilton was in his prime though and far from equal to a 37 year old Nilton.
Matthäus is put on the side of Ronaldinho and Facchetti because Ronaldinho will not track back - the one who will is Leonidas. This Brazil side had Pele, Vava and Garrincha all playing solely offense.
My team only has Ronaldinho who isn't absolute world-class defensively. You also need someone to threaten with counters because without that threat your defense suffers even more. It would allow the opponents to lose the ball without being punished which would sacrifice the defense a lot.
You are right that a team with 5 defenders makes it hard for the wingers to dribble past 3 to score on their own. That is no issue for me considering that opens up space in the central areas instead. There I have Matthäus who with long-shots scored as much as Pele did in the '70 WC(4 goals) and Charlton who scored 3.
I am not reliant on the individual brilliance of the wingers, the outstanding goalscoring ability of Leonidas, the amazing long-shots from Charlton/Matthäus or the world-class crossing of Stoichkov/Cafu/Facchetti. It is the sum of all parts that works in my favour, I don't have a "route to goal" defined which makes it very hard to defend.
You double up on Ronaldinho out wide, what happens when he cuts inside behind Gerson/Clodoaldo? Or he just passes the central players?
You must also take into consideration that Platini/Pele/Kocsis were all near equal Ronaldinho defensively. So it is true that I have one who won't work as hard in the defense, but he has three.
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I got to go to work Fruity so I will answer later, but certainly before the poll closes. Always great participation!
I am back and if anybody has any questions or just wants to be best friends I am here.
Come on, Ronaldinho was as much use as a chocolate teapot defensively. Platini by contrast ran midfields from deep, running all over the park, while Pele was asked to (and did) carry out a more defensively aware role in Mexico.
EDIT: Realized I had said Ronaldinho was better that was a typo, it was supposed to say equal so I have nothing to say about that. Thanks for pointing it out mate, I edited it away!
Platini's work-rate in the defense was his biggest weakness which applies to Ronaldinho/Pele/Kocsis as well.
Ronaldinho was the 3rd most offensive player in the Brazil side and had a defensive effort similar to Platini's. He wasn't the teams superstar, that was Rivaldo/Ronaldo who participated the least in the defense to allow them to counter.
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Cal seems a bit inactive and I am sure he would have enjoyed bumping the thread now himself so I'll do it for him.
@TheGame
@duffer
@Jiggs'Hamstring
@sun_tzu
@NM
Can you guys explain why you voted for Cal? Would help me for the next round if I can adjust to form a team you like too.
@duffer
@Jiggs'Hamstring
@sun_tzu
@NM
Can you guys explain why you voted for Cal? Would help me for the next round if I can adjust to form a team you like too.
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I'm so lonely.
Surely Pele was better defensively than Ronaldinho?
I'd say both Pelé and Platini were. That said, I'm thinking deep-lying Juve Platini starting moves from deep if needs be, don't have any immediate recollection of him doing that for France.
Not by much. Platini in particular was known for being lazy defensively and wasn't one to participate in the defense full heartedly. Pele I'd rate slightly higher than the two but still he is still mainly "the one not defending" when he played.
Ronaldinho was the "dog" of '02, he was forced to work in the defense because he was the third best offensive player. No shame in that, but it meant he had to do a lot more defensive work as it isn't viable to have 3 players walking on the half-line.
Outside of the WC Ronaldinho was much worse as he was constantly the star in his club team in a way he wasn't in the WC of 02.
I'd agree with that - sort of. But in fairness the bottom line would be - from a critical standpoint - that he wasn't very good at it: Ronaldinho's defensive/backtracking capability isn't really a card you want to play. But then again you don't actually have to.
It's hard to not pick Cal? when Anna has no goalkeeper in goal.
WTF is that corner formation thing anyway?
Exactly! I haven't played that card I was just called out on having 1 player who wasn't world-class defensively as some reason that I'd lose. I then pointed out that my opponent has 3 of that type so it shouldn't be my issue but my opponents.
WTF is that corner formation thing anyway?
I played last 10-15 minutes just doing corner-kicks. It's a thing in these drafts.