Views from 'THEM'

Rory Fitz

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Rory Fitzgerald

Coaching Staff
Member # 377

Member Rated:
posted 25-08-2002 02:08
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I reckon Arsenal are a stronger unit than us or Utd.

I feel, as Portly said, Ferguson has fecked his system up with Veron. Ferguson feels he has to vindicate the £28.1m he spent and therefore plays him at the expense of his best team.

Beckham......Keane........Scholes/Butt......Giggs

Beckham,Scholes, Butt and Giggs came through the ranks and Keane was bought at 22 I think. This midfield won every honour in the game and at its peak, 28/29 on average, Ferguson felt the need to tinker with it

He is sacrificing one of the best strikers in the game in Ole Solskjaer who could be even more lethal than RVN

Long may Veron stay, because he is working wonders for our Premiership challenge


By the way, Portly felt that Rio would fill the void in defence. The main point was - the defence needed tinkering with but the midfield was generally considered the best in Europe , yet Ferguson spent £28.1 million to feck up the whole structure of the team. Personally I feel the OGS is on of the top 6 strikers in the league:
Not in order

Henry
Owen
Hasselbaink
RVN
Shearer
OGS
 
I believe Veron was bought with Europe specifically in mind and in the hope that Scholesy would adapt to a forward roll.
When in fact messing Scholes about affected his confidence.
Veron is a quality player who will hopefully produce this season.
With referance to Arsenal what happens when Henry gets injured they only have one out and out striker and that's him..I wouldn't call that strength in depth
 
To buy Veron for Europe and with the CL final in Glasgow - that had a smell of selfishness from Ferguson in his last season.

As for Henry, his goal smacked of class today :( - superb, but you are right Pete, we all hoped he would get that 3-match ban last season for his verbal assault on the ref after the Newcastle game. Could they replace him :confused:, well they create enough chances for Wiltord and Dinny to put away.

As for Veron, he is a class player, but he is not finding his feet in the Prem. He seems to have turned into a confidence player and by that I mean he plays at his best when his confidence is high.

Owen can go through a bad patch yet still find goals so too Gerrard, but Veron goes totally missing if playing badly.
 
Veron is a cofidence player and I really think he will find his feet this year.
I didn't read into Verons transfer as a smack of selfishness I think that SAF just thought he needed something differant to win the E/C that time around,as I say it somewhat backfired last year as it split up IMO the best midfield in Europe as a unit and also contribted to Scholes having his worst season.
If you remember Veron was superb for the first month or so of last season and seemed to drift away .I recall his 2nd half display at Spurs as one of the best midfield performances I have seen by a United player.

Do you think SAF could temp Henry to join us, him and Ruud up front phew. ( never happen I know).

The Arse would definately miss him as much as we would miss Ruud hopefully SAF is going to get a striker this week as well as Escude and Carlini
 
If its not broke then why fix it. :confused:

UTD's midfield was the best in Europe, no doutb. If there was one area of the pitch that you were magnificient in , it was midfield.

But :

Ferguson sold Stam, best defender in the league at the time with Hyypia.
Bought Veron and messed up midfield.

Ask Marching. How many times did DOL sub Viduka ?
Heskey was virtually never left out for the Pool.

Coincidence, no !!!

They were the biggest purchases for the respective managers and they have to verify that purchase, they must prove they were right and that means playing their most expensive purchase in the hope that he comes good.
 
Originally posted by Billy Blaggs:
<strong>All those are fair points.

PLC wouldn't be too pleased to find they spent 28.1 million on a substitute</strong><hr></blockquote>


Thanks for the honesty, I like to post here and I will tell the truth as I see it, nice to see ou will do the same.

Although Fergie fecked the system up, his team is still favourites or there abouts with Arsenal. The media view us as 3rd :) - I'm glad, but I feel we can go all the way with Diouf :D
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Its a fair point about the midfield. It was the best in Europe, but i think SAF took the view that we had to keep moving forward. I know the arguments about 'what ain't broken ...' But the moment you stand still you get overtaken. The Arse had brought in Pires and Ljundberg and i think SAF thought unless he made moves to strengthen the midfield even more we risked being surpassed by the Arse.
Lets face it when the transfer was announced we thought it was a fantastic buy, i certainly did. Veron at the time was viewed as one of the top 5 midfielders in the world. On paper it was a great buy, a player with the skills and tricks to match those of Figo and with a range of passing only surpassed by the likes of Becks.
As you can probably tell i'm still a massive Veron fan. I think all he needs is a couple of good games in a row and he will show everyone why SAF paid £28.1 million for him. I think these games will come in Europe, and this will give him the confidence to show what he can really do in the Premiership.
Give him until Christmas - if he is still struggling by then, Ok he's gotta go.
 
Nice to see a Liverpool supporter can have a rational debate with us!

I think that seeing Fergie`s motivation as `selfish` is misguided, missing the point about purchasing players. The great man would never be so small-minded as to think only of winning the Champions` League in Glasgow and letting that concern override his judgement.

Veron was brought in to freshen up the team. After the Treble Season Sir Alex could identify a certain complacency in the Manchester United team. Just who was being complacent, I don`t know. But remember that managers can spot such things a mile away whereas we are not on the training ground, in the dressing room, etc.

Gerrard Houllier has made some decisions about players that those outside Liverpool Football Club thought were unjustified. But I regard Gerard Houllier as an intelligent man and manager (Arsene Wenger is too, but tends to complain too much when thinking is better than saying)and as the one responsible, he is willing to make hard decisions.

Yes, Paul Scholes looked lost last season. I sympathise with him as he was in his element doing what he does best before Sir Alex changed the format of the team. But you also have to look at why Sir Alex did it. Nothing stands still, everything is continually changing. I believe Sir Alex realised it was only a matter of time before the contenders (Arsenal, Liverpool, Leeds etc)stablised after their team building, and started to really hit their stride.

Manchester United`s style of play had become predictable. If a classy player such as Scholes was unwilling to adapt to a changing format then I tend to side with the Manager on that issue - it seems clear Sir Alex thought such a good player could and should adapt to a different style of play. If Paul is still unwilling to really give it a go, then maybe he should be warming the bench.

And to get back to the Champions` League, Manchester United played some bloody good games with Veron in that competition. He has what it takes to unlock European teams` defences and this season I expect to see him come into his own. As for Veron in the Premiership - yes, he was disappointing. But I think everybody underestimates the difference between Serie A, Prima Liga etc and the Premiership.

Just because Veron is a world-class player when he is at this best, didn`t mean he could walk into the Premiership and into a Manchester United side trying out different formations, and immediately be top dog. I would expect him to show his stuff this season and if he doesn`t, then maybe he is a luxury and surplus to requirements.

Howerver, I am prepared to be patient and reap the rewards of Veron`s presence in the Manchester United team.
 
Fergie bought Veron because he identified our midfield need to add some unpredictable element and new spark. First of all the theory itself is not wrong. Just as someone else said, everything was changing in the world. Using the same players, formation and tactic which won you a treble in 1999 didn't mean that they can also win you treble in 2000, 2001, and so on. We need to continue to improve and get stronger. Fergie's reason behind Veron's purchase is nothing selfish here. It was just that he had made a mistake on the type of player we need to purchase to add unpredictable element. If I were him I'd buy someone who is fast and skillful, can open up defence by throwing himself into the penalty box rather than Veron who basically is a passer which playing outside the box.

But the thing I started to point out last season is that we have some other things more urgent to fix. Last season we need to fix our defence. This season after fixing the defence we need to fix our front line. No matter how to see it is a luxury and surplus to our squad to have a 28.1m midfielder who didn't suit us, and then leaving those real problems not fixed.
 
I think Fergie bought Veron because we had hit a brick wall in Europe...out in the quarter-finals in successive years with a team that was waltzing through the Premiership but maybe lacking a few ideas against teams like Real Madrid and Bayern Munich when it mattered.

I think like a lot of other United fans, I was thrilled when we got Veron. It just hasn't worked out the way we had all hoped. Key to Fergie's plan in bringing in Veron was that Scholes would be able to play off Ruud. On paper, it looked like a great idea. But for whatever reason, that role doesn't seem to suit Scholes.

From that, I think a lot of our problems started. A lot of players started being played out of position, because understandably, Fergie didn't want to drop Scholes or Veron. The end result of this was that the dynamics and rhythm of the team was disrupted which, I believe, was largely responsible for us losing the title.

Also, unfortunately, for Scholes and Veron, it made them look bad because I think there's only one position that really suits both of them and that's central midfield. And neither one of them got a decent run in that position.

I guess the bottom line is...I was really hoping this would be a new year with a fresh start and that some answers would be found. With Nicky's excellent World Cup performances, it's just gotten more congested in midfield as Fergie now tries to accommodate 6 midfielders.

My big worry is that his solution is going to be to play one striker in more and more matches. I'm not always opposed to 4-5-1. I think there's a time and place for it and it has certainly worked well for us in the past. But I do worry when we use that system against a team like West Brom at home. I can't help but feel that it's now being used at times simply to accommodate his midfielders.

I honestly think the best solution is to sell one of our midfielders and that we should buy a quality striker with that money.
 
Rory for a mod I say. A Liverpool fan who can hold an intelligent debate. ;) ;)
 
Originally posted by Rory Fitz:
<strong>If its not broke then why fix it. :confused: </strong><hr></blockquote>

We were walking the legue fair enough but in Europe we were hitting a brick wall regullary with a 442 formation.
Last yr was our 2nd best season in Europe under Ferguson. Better than the 97 Dortmund semi final yr as we were unlucky not to get to the final.
Fergies tinkering was neccesary as we want more than just the league every season. The rewards will be great afterwards.
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Originally posted by Murt:
<strong>

We were walking the legue fair enough but in Europe we were hitting a brick wall regullary with a 442 formation.
Last yr was our 2nd best season in Europe under Ferguson. Better than the 97 Dortmund semi final yr as we were unlucky not to get to the final.
Fergies tinkering was neccesary as we want more than just the league every season. The rewards will be great afterwards.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Unlucky? I don't think so. Our defence was all at sea for both games and we thoroughly deserved what we got - nothing. We were truly unfortunate to beat dortmund in our home match against them - chances piled in but for sharper finishing, we would have marched to the final.
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Originally posted by lchk:
<strong>

Unlucky? I don't think so. Our defence was all at sea for both games and we thoroughly deserved what we got - nothing. We were truly unfortunate to beat dortmund in our home match against them - chances piled in but for sharper finishing, we would have marched to the final.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I think last season's exit in Europe has illustrated our weakness at the front line. Our defence didn't play badly, but we just didn't look sharp enough in attack on both legs. I still remembered in the second leg against Leverkusen last season, when there was only ten minutes left, Fergie sent in Forlan and I felt despaired. In the past we should have send on Ole and Sheri at such time, and then just wait for miracle to happen. But Forlan is not ready for top level football yet and we certainly need more striker who is top class and can offer more when we need to chase a game.
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Originally posted by lchk:
<strong>

Unlucky? I don't think so. Our defence was all at sea for both games and we thoroughly deserved what we got - nothing. We were truly unfortunate to beat dortmund in our home match against them - chances piled in but for sharper finishing, we would have marched to the final.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You contradicting yourself, saying we wernt "unlucky" but were unfortunate not to win. :confused:
We lost out on 1 away goal which is close enough to call luck either way.

In 97 west lost out to Dortmund 2:0 on aggregate, 2002 we lost out on an away goaL. Work out yourself on which occasion we were nearer to the final.
Hence therefor it was our 2nd best season in Europe since Fergie took over hence therefor we did improve slightly in Europe.
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As you can probably tell i'm still a massive <hr></blockquote>
surely not, UUTT...
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />
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quote:
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As you can probably tell i'm still a massive
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surely not, UUTT...
<hr></blockquote>

Atleast pirint the whole quote, and judging by some of the other posts i'm not the only one who's willing to give Veron a bit more time.
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feck off!!,.... yeah..veron is a world class player, but he doesnt fit in Utd system...bla bla.....just sell the poor bastard.....cause you dont deserve him!!! anyways english football kinda sucks! i would love to see him go to barcelona. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />
 
Originally posted by antonio:
<strong>feck off!!,.... yeah..veron is a world class player, but he doesnt fit in Utd system...bla bla.....just sell the poor bastard.....cause you dont deserve him!!! anyways english football kinda sucks! i would love to see him go to barcelona. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

Why are you here then? :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by antonio:
<strong>feck off!!,.... yeah..veron is a world class player, but he doesnt fit in Utd system...bla bla.....just sell the poor bastard.....cause you dont deserve him!!! anyways english football kinda sucks! i would love to see him go to barcelona. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>


Barca who?????
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im here because i am veron's fan, but now i realized that some of you guys are not loyal to the players, cause i'm a true fan!. Anyways, im sick and tired of this veron Bull shit!...so this will be my last post.....lateZ!!!!

ps: good luck in the PL and CL <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />
 
Originally posted by giggsgirl:
<strong>
Veron was brought in to freshen up the team. After the Treble Season Sir Alex could identify a certain complacency in the Manchester United team. Just who was being complacent, I don`t know.


Yes, Paul Scholes looked lost last season. I sympathise with him as he was in his element doing what he does best before Sir Alex changed the format of the team. But you also have to look at why Sir Alex did it. Nothing stands still, everything is continually changing. I believe Sir Alex realised it was only a matter of time before the contenders (Arsenal, Liverpool, Leeds etc)stablised after their team building, and started to really hit their stride.

Manchester United`s style of play had become predictable. If a classy player such as Scholes was unwilling to adapt to a changing format then I tend to side with the Manager on that issue - it seems clear Sir Alex thought such a good player could and should adapt to a different style of play. If Paul is still unwilling to really give it a go, then maybe he should be warming the bench.

I would expect him to show his stuff this season and if he doesn`t, then maybe he is a luxury and surplus to requirements.

Howerver, I am prepared to be patient and reap the rewards of Veron`s presence in the Manchester United team.</strong><hr></blockquote>

i agree completly, scholes should try harder and stop complanning, i think veron will come good ans SAF is a smart man and knew we had to chang his formation to win the CL. we had become too pradictable and need a new dimention to our game.

Hopefully Rio will sort out our defence and if that happens no one will be able to stop us.
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Originally posted by antonio:
<strong>im here because i am veron's fan, but now i realized that some of you guys are not loyal to the players, cause i'm a true fan!. Anyways, im sick and tired of this veron Bull shit!...so this will be my last post.....lateZ!!!!

ps: good luck in the PL and CL <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

back to the burgers for you then Wankie boy
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Originally posted by Sharkey:
<strong>

back to the burgers for you then Wankie boy</strong><hr></blockquote>

lets not talk about dutch football! ok? .
by the way how was KOREA this summer??!? <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />
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Alot of the points are very fair, I understand the optimism at the Veron deal, I was quite worried myself when this went through with RVN.

However , things have moved on and Veron has not worked out the way it was hoped i.e. make the same impact as RVN.

I feel that your team is now being comprimised by Veron. I think Solskjaer makes a power of difference to United and with Scholes back in his normal position, will give any team and defenders problems.

I totally understand the policy of
"You cant sit still.... - totally correct.

But when the deal hasnt worked out then there is a problem. Currently Uniteds best option is to revert to old 4-4-2 with the same ould personnel. I rated Veron as one of the best and loved watching him for Lazio, I thought he was awesome. I have already said that I was quite worried at his arrival.

However, Solskjaer can have great games and still lose his place whereas Veron can be mediocrity personified and still retain his place.

Conclusion :Long may it continue ;)
 
Originally posted by Rory Fitz:
<strong>However, Solskjaer can have great games and still lose his place whereas Veron can be mediocrity personified and still retain his place.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Veron is not the only who is regullary picked despite poor performances but in fairness i can see that changing a lot this season. I was surprised that Veron was left out last Friday and although i rate Veron highly i think its very good for Utd that Butt is pushing so hard for a regular place. Im convinced that well still see the world class Veron we saw at Lazio.
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I'm not convinced that we will. The team is not built around him so he's not the fulcrum for everything, Keane is. His passing is not as great as some people make out either. He hits a 40-50 yad ball and Giggs or whoever cant get to it and they say Giggs wasn't fast enough or didn't read the ball properly etc but the point is that a pass is only a good pass if it reaches it target and Verons passing hasn't been doing that. Surley after a year with the team he would have a better idea of what people are going to do and play the ball accordingly. I'm rambling but I think we should have cashed him in and used the money to strengthen the attack and the defence and then let some of the K Richardsons/Jimm Davis' etc have a chance.
 
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