Value in the Market Revisited

Walrus

Oppressed White Male
Joined
Aug 25, 2008
Messages
11,244
Basicay this thread is about our transfer policy in the past few years and how it is time we probably changed and adapted it.

For the last 4-5 years under Fergie, our transfer policy has been pretty straightforward; we identify the player we want, we do or spend whatever it takes to get them. This has seen us always historically paying over the odds because we have always refused to go for a second choice.

The trouble is, over the same time period we have seen the emergence of oil clubs such as City, Chelsea and the French. This has meant increased competition for the top players and we have not been prepared to match sorts of prices they have often been buying for - leading to us going on about "Value", year after year.

So what's my point in all this? Looking at the Coentrao and Mata threads, has made me think that we need to change tactic. Sugar Daddy clubs are here to stay and despite FFP, we are not going to be able to compete with them for the signature of the most desirable players.

Every year however, there are top quality players who - for one reason or another - are available to buy from a top club, normally at a very good price. Coentrao and Mata are for me two examples of this. If you tried to buy Mata last summer the notion would be laughable. Now? Jose has practically put a big "for sale" sign on his head. Furthermore it is a World Cup year and I imagine Mata will be desperate to get more playing time to ensure he gets to go to Brazil.
Coentrao we were interested in last summer and by all accounts he is itching for a move as well.

A few years back there was an undervalued Barcelona midfielder who in the end went for something like £22m. His name was Yaya Toure and he is now regarded as one of the very best players in the league. Did being a "Barcelona reject" put City off buying him? No. And it shouldn't for us when these players do become available.

There have been countless times when these sorts of top quality players have been on the way out from big clubs, but whether due to our own collective ego or some sort of arrogance, we have rarely bothered. This "We are Manchester United, we buy who we want" attitude has simply resulted in us overpaying for players from mid table Premier League clubs. The likes of Berbatov, Fellaini and even Young and Valencia have all been signings where we have overpaid, whilst other clubs are buying overseas talent on the cheap.

TLDR Version - We need to start signing some players who are actually available to buy, either because they are out of favour or in case like Hazard, the player has simply demanded a move.
 
Walrus said:
For the last 4-5 years under Fergie, our transfer policy has been pretty straightforward; we identify the player we want, we do or spend whatever it takes to get them.
Click to expand...

No. It might have been true earlier when we just spanked the required money on Van Nistelrooy or Verón or Ferdinand or Rooney.

In the last few years, however, we identified our targets, determined how much we value them at and then refused to budge from that valuation. Instead of paying over the odds - not just in terms of transfer fees but wages and agent fees as well - for top talent, we settled for the cheaper alternatives in most cases. Still paying over the odds for them, mind you, but our valuation of lesser players seems to be more generous than in case of top talent.

We just need to start paying the market price when we go for the very best talent, not baulk at an extra 5m. In the long term, signing the Ashley Youngs and Fellainis for somewhat cheaper than the best players won't work.

Your idea is not a bad one though but Fergie never liked the rejects of other big clubs. We'll see if Moyes has the same aversion.
 
I still can't believe we didn't move for Vidal before he went to Juventus. £10m... that's fecking incredible. He was the best midfielder in Germany at that time and the definition of value. Lots of other players who were value for money, some of them obvious, but we didn't even make a move.
 
Yeah, apart from the second paragraph which seems totally wrong I agree with the rest of your post. If we do buy Coentrao it will signal something of a change in policy. Tbh, I hadn't noticed that we hadn't been picking up out of favour players till you said it and it really makes sense.
 
A few seasons ago when we failed to get Hazard, SAF said he didn't think Hazard was worth the £32m price tag. Now we most likely didn't get him because Chelsea were offering a fatter pay cheque but looking back now, that was £32m well spent for them. Given we paid £27.5m for Fellaini this summer, I think £30m+ is the same value as £15-20m+ 5 seasons ago. I'd be more than happy to pay £40m+ for a top top centre midfielder at this point such as Vidal or Gundogan.
 
Walrus said:
Basicay this thread is about our transfer policy in the past few years and how it is time we probably changed and adapted it.

For the last 4-5 years under Fergie, our transfer policy has been pretty straightforward; we identify the player we want, we do or spend whatever it takes to get them. This has seen us always historically paying over the odds because we have always refused to go for a second choice.

The trouble is, over the same time period we have seen the emergence of oil clubs such as City, Chelsea and the French. This has meant increased competition for the top players and we have not been prepared to match sorts of prices they have often been buying for - leading to us going on about "Value", year after year.

So what's my point in all this? Looking at the Coentrao and Mata threads, has made me think that we need to change tactic. Sugar Daddy clubs are here to stay and despite FFP, we are not going to be able to compete with them for the signature of the most desirable players.

Every year however, there are top quality players who - for one reason or another - are available to buy from a top club, normally at a very good price. Coentrao and Mata are for me two examples of this. If you tried to buy Mata last summer the notion would be laughable. Now? Jose has practically put a big "for sale" sign on his head. Furthermore it is a World Cup year and I imagine Mata will be desperate to get more playing time to ensure he gets to go to Brazil.
Coentrao we were interested in last summer and by all accounts he is itching for a move as well.

A few years back there was an undervalued Barcelona midfielder who in the end went for something like £22m. His name was Yaya Toure and he is now regarded as one of the very best players in the league. Did being a "Barcelona reject" put City off buying him? No. And it shouldn't for us when these players do become available.

There have been countless times when these sorts of top quality players have been on the way out from big clubs, but whether due to our own collective ego or some sort of arrogance, we have rarely bothered. This "We are Manchester United, we buy who we want" attitude has simply resulted in us overpaying for players from mid table Premier League clubs. The likes of Berbatov, Fellaini and even Young and Valencia have all been signings where we have overpaid, whilst other clubs are buying overseas talent on the cheap.

TLDR Version - We need to start signing some players who are actually available to buy, either because they are out of favour or in case like Hazard, the player has simply demanded a move.
Click to expand...

I've read this in a Jack Dee voice which makes it far more entertaining. Here's my interesting input into this topic.

Our strategy in the last 5 years has been this: "When we spend big, ensure it's on a player in the PL. Thus weakening the opposition while making us stronger."

Evidence: We've spent over 20m 3 times since the summer of 07/08 (that was the summer we bought Hargreaves/Nani/Anderson). Fellaini - 28.5m, Van Persie - 27m and Berbatov - 33m. We've purchased 9 players from England, costing us a total of 162m, that's an average of around 18.0m per transfer. We've bought 12 players from abroad for a combined fee of 75m, which averages out at 6.2m per transfer. De Gea at 17.6m is our highest paid transfer fee for a player abroad. The 3 highest are; De Gea - 17.6m, Kagawa - 14m and Bebe - 7.7m.

There's a stark difference there in our transfers. We pay big on players PL proven, while when we are far more conservative when buying players abroad. That seems to have been the plan (or might just be coincidence), but the difference is staggering imo. When you put it like this, all 9 of the players we brought in from England have been more expensive than Tosic (that includes Powell at 6.6m).

So, big question is, are we going to spend big again on players abroad? As it seems like Ferguson was put off since the Hargreaves/Nani/Anderson transfers back in 07/08.

Here are the transfers btw:

13/14
Guillermo Varela £1,540,000
Marouane Fellaini £28,512,000

12/13
Shinji Kagawa £14,080,000
Robin van Persie £27,016,000
Ángelo Henríquez £4,840,000
Alexander Büttner £4,400,000
Wilfried Zaha £10,340,000
Nick Powell £6,600,000

11/12
Phil Jones £16,984,000
David de Gea £17,600,000
Ashley Young £15,840,000

10/11
Anders Lindegaard £4,400,000
Bebé £7,744,000
Chris Smalling £7,040,000
Chicharito £6,600,000

09/10
Antonio Valencia £16,632,000
Gabriel Obertan £3,520,000
Mame Diouf £3,960,000

08/09
Dimitar Berbatov £33,440,000
Ritchie de Laet £220,000
Zoran Tosic £6,160,000

Source
 
I don't think anyone would disagree Bape. Such is our desperate need for quality in the middle ideally we'll spend big and get top drawer now.
 
£50m is the new £30m.


At buying the top tier of talent, we have been completely uncompetitive for 8 years and its very much reflected in the current squad, finally. Without buying top players every summer we cannot reasonably expect to compete wih clubs who do. We are in desperate need for a handful of big buys.
 
Bape said:
A few seasons ago when we failed to get Hazard, SAF said he didn't think Hazard was worth the £32m price tag. Now we most likely didn't get him because Chelsea were offering a fatter pay cheque but looking back now, that was £32m well spent for them. Given we paid £27.5m for Fellaini this summer, I think £30m+ is the same value as £15-20m+ 5 seasons ago. I'd be more than happy to pay £40m+ for a top top centre midfielder at this point such as Vidal or Gundogan.
Click to expand...

I thought the reason we didn't get Hazard was because we weren't prepared to pay some ridiculous agent fee or something?

Also, it was only last season.
 
KingMinger22 said:
£50m is the new £30m.


At buying the top tier of talent, we have been completely uncompetitive for 8 years and its very much reflected in the current squad, finally. Without buying top players every summer we cannot reasonably expect to compete wih clubs who do. We are in desperate need for a handful of big buys.
Click to expand...


There's been a lot of players with -30m buy out clauses that we've not even triggered let alone pay 50m for players.
 
When Wenger spends £42m on a player then you know the market has gone crazy. Those are the prices we'd have to pay.
 
KingMinger22 said:
£50m is the new £30m.


At buying the top tier of talent, we have been completely uncompetitive for 8 years and its very much reflected in the current squad, finally. Without buying top players every summer we cannot reasonably expect to compete wih clubs who do. We are in desperate need for a handful of big buys.
Click to expand...

This.

Move on with the market or get left behind.
 
Anduin said:
I still can't believe we didn't move for Vidal before he went to Juventus. £10m... that's fecking incredible. He was the best midfielder in Germany at that time and the definition of value. Lots of other players who were value for money, some of them obvious, but we didn't even make a move.
Click to expand...

This and the fact Lewandowski went for free to Munich.....FREE!!...Seamus Coleman was £60,000, Eriksen is looking pretty good lately and he was what? 12 mill?

There is "value" in the market
 
I get the impression that Ferguson always questioned why clubs were so open to selling players like Toure or Sneijder. There probably was a snobbery to it. Moyes is different though, he flourished with signing transfer listed players from top clubs.
 
Kid Cunto said:
I get the impression that Ferguson always questioned why clubs were so open to selling players like Toure or Sneijder. There probably was a snobbery to it. Moyes is different though, he flourished with signing transfer listed players from top clubs.
Click to expand...


I was thinking about the OP, and other than Cantona who else was ever offered on a plate to us as a reject from another club that we went on and bought?
 
Irwhine said:
I was thinking about the OP, and other than Cantona who else was ever offered on a plate to us as a reject from another club that we went on and bought?
Click to expand...

I can only think of players who arrived in very special circumstances and not even directly from their previous big clubs. Like Blanc or Larsson. But as I said, very special circumstances. In general Fergie definitely had an aversion to signing "rejects".
 
The other thing I was thinking about was we don't really sign many players from the other big leagues traditionally.

Germany - Only Kagawa that I can think off
Spain - Only DeGea and I suppose Hughes
Italy - erm....
France - Evra and I'm sure some others.

Is that some sort of aversion that we need to get the feck over or am I doting and forgetting a load of players?
 
Irwhine said:
The other thing I was thinking about was we don't really sign many players from the other big leagues traditionally.

Germany - Only Kagawa that I can think off
Spain - Only DeGea and I suppose Hughes
Italy - erm....
France - Evra and I'm sure some others.

Is that some sort of aversion that we need to get the feck over or am I doting and forgetting a load of players?
Click to expand...

Italy: SILVESTRE! How can you forget him :( Also Verón.
Germany: Hargreaves is the obvious example apart from Kagawa.
Spain: yeah, can't think of others.
France: plenty but they're not on the level of the other three. Djemba-Djema and Obertan are particular highlights though.
 
.Rossi said:
This and the fact Lewandowski went for free to Munich.....FREE!!...Seamus Coleman was £60,000, Eriksen is looking pretty good lately and he was what? 12 mill?

There is "value" in the market
Click to expand...

Free, until you take into account wages and the hefty signing-on fee that I'm sure he received from them.
 
RedSky At Night said:
I've read this in a Jack Dee voice which makes it far more entertaining. Here's my interesting input into this topic.

Our strategy in the last 5 years has been this: "When we spend big, ensure it's on a player in the PL. Thus weakening the opposition while making us stronger."

Evidence: We've spent over 20m 3 times since the summer of 07/08 (that was the summer we bought Hargreaves/Nani/Anderson). Fellaini - 28.5m, Van Persie - 27m and Berbatov - 33m. We've purchased 9 players from England, costing us a total of 162m, that's an average of around 18.0m per transfer. We've bought 12 players from abroad for a combined fee of 75m, which averages out at 6.2m per transfer. De Gea at 17.6m is our highest paid transfer fee for a player abroad. The 3 highest are; De Gea - 17.6m, Kagawa - 14m and Bebe - 7.7m.

There's a stark difference there in our transfers. We pay big on players PL proven, while when we are far more conservative when buying players abroad. That seems to have been the plan (or might just be coincidence), but the difference is staggering imo. When you put it like this, all 9 of the players we brought in from England have been more expensive than Tosic (that includes Powell at 6.6m).

So, big question is, are we going to spend big again on players abroad? As it seems like Ferguson was put off since the Hargreaves/Nani/Anderson transfers back in 07/08.

Here are the transfers btw:

13/14
Guillermo Varela £1,540,000
Marouane Fellaini £28,512,000

12/13
Shinji Kagawa £14,080,000
Robin van Persie £27,016,000
Ángelo Henríquez £4,840,000
Alexander Büttner £4,400,000
Wilfried Zaha £10,340,000
Nick Powell £6,600,000

11/12
Phil Jones £16,984,000
David de Gea £17,600,000
Ashley Young £15,840,000

10/11
Anders Lindegaard £4,400,000
Bebé £7,744,000
Chris Smalling £7,040,000
Chicharito £6,600,000

09/10
Antonio Valencia £16,632,000
Gabriel Obertan £3,520,000
Mame Diouf £3,960,000

08/09
Dimitar Berbatov £33,440,000
Ritchie de Laet £220,000
Zoran Tosic £6,160,000

Source
Click to expand...


Thats a very interesting observation, presumably illustrating the risk SAF perceived in foreigners not adapting to the PL. I wonder if that is a hangover of Veron.
 
Big Ben Foster said:
Free, until you take into account wages and the hefty signing-on fee that I'm sure he received from them.
Click to expand...

Players receive wages and signing-on-fees even when the club also pay a transfer fee for them. So it's not that relevant.
 
Irwhine said:
So really barring Evra our record of buying players from the big leagues is crap.
Click to expand...

I'd add De Gea to the list but it really is weird the lack of recent signings from top leagues.

Probably another of our policies we should change, aiming to get players from the Bundesliga or La Liga. The premier league itself is an attraction, use it to get some of the better players from the top teams abroad.
 
Mystry said:
I'd add Dea to the list but it really is weird the lack of recent signings from top leagues.

Probably another of our policies we should change, aiming to get players from the Bundesliga or La Liga. The premier league itself is an attraction, use it to get some of the better players from the top teams abroad.
Click to expand...


Sorry, that was a brain fart. Of course DeGea is a success.
 
thegregster said:
http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/bayern-munich/transferrekorde/verein_27.html

Bayern Munich certainly have found value over the years. Their list of record signings is pretty impressive in terms of value.
Click to expand...

This is the key isn't it - it's about signing players who are AVAILABLE.

We always seem to want to buy someone that the selling club refuses to sell, as such we get ripped off and the transfer get dragged on like Berbatov and Fellaini

Whereas if a player wants to leave, or is out of favour, or the selling club simply recognises that they cannot keep hold of him (although in this case the fee would still be higher), generally it will be cheaper, quicker and lower wages as well.

When we have sold players they usually fall into one of these brackets - we want to sell so we are prepared to accept a lower than market value offer, and the buying club gets a bargain.


Hazard last year had been hinting for a move all season. Lille knew they couldn't keep hold of him so they just accepted all the fairly priced bids and the player made up his mind. Kagawa was in the same sort of boat and most here regarded him as a bargain for the price we got him at.
Conversely, the Fellainis and Berbatovs have been pried from their old clubs after a lot of negotiation, and as a result the price goes through the roof.

Players like Mata and Coentrao would be fantastic buys. If we don't bid on the ground that they are Chelsea/Madrid rejects then it would be absolutely laughable.
 
RedSky At Night said:
I've read this in a Jack Dee voice which makes it far more entertaining. Here's my interesting input into this topic.

Our strategy in the last 5 years has been this: "When we spend big, ensure it's on a player in the PL. Thus weakening the opposition while making us stronger."

Evidence: We've spent over 20m 3 times since the summer of 07/08 (that was the summer we bought Hargreaves/Nani/Anderson). Fellaini - 28.5m, Van Persie - 27m and Berbatov - 33m. We've purchased 9 players from England, costing us a total of 162m, that's an average of around 18.0m per transfer. We've bought 12 players from abroad for a combined fee of 75m, which averages out at 6.2m per transfer. De Gea at 17.6m is our highest paid transfer fee for a player abroad. The 3 highest are; De Gea - 17.6m, Kagawa - 14m and Bebe - 7.7m.

There's a stark difference there in our transfers. We pay big on players PL proven, while when we are far more conservative when buying players abroad. That seems to have been the plan (or might just be coincidence), but the difference is staggering imo. When you put it like this, all 9 of the players we brought in from England have been more expensive than Tosic (that includes Powell at 6.6m).

So, big question is, are we going to spend big again on players abroad? As it seems like Ferguson was put off since the Hargreaves/Nani/Anderson transfers back in 07/08.

Here are the transfers btw:

13/14
Guillermo Varela £1,540,000
Marouane Fellaini £28,512,000

12/13
Shinji Kagawa £14,080,000
Robin van Persie £27,016,000
Ángelo Henríquez £4,840,000
Alexander Büttner £4,400,000
Wilfried Zaha £10,340,000
Nick Powell £6,600,000

11/12
Phil Jones £16,984,000
David de Gea £17,600,000
Ashley Young £15,840,000

10/11
Anders Lindegaard £4,400,000
Bebé £7,744,000
Chris Smalling £7,040,000
Chicharito £6,600,000

09/10
Antonio Valencia £16,632,000
Gabriel Obertan £3,520,000
Mame Diouf £3,960,000

08/09
Dimitar Berbatov £33,440,000
Ritchie de Laet £220,000
Zoran Tosic £6,160,000

Source
Click to expand...

Weaking the opposition though? Whats the point of that I wonder. If they are now weaker, our rivals will benefit just as much. And in a lot of cases (Fellaini, Berbatov, etc) the clubs have used the money to become stronger not weaker. So if that really was our plan, it usually backfires
 
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