Utd Draft: QF - BIG DUNK vs Enigma

With players at their career (not Utd) peak, who would win?

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Physiocrat

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BIG DUNK

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Enigma

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BIG DUNK Tactics

Dynamic and attacking 4-1-3-2, comfortable in possession and able to spring direct counter attacks. Our shape can change to 4-3-3 (attacking transition) and a compact 4-4-2 (defensive phase).
Nistelrooy-Tevez are an aggressive and ruthless strike partnership to tear up any defence: the Dutch goal machine playing as the central poacher, while Carlos Tevez offers an extra cutting edge and industry with his high workrate and movement across the whole attacking third.
The midfield quartet consists of the Rolls-Royce holding man, Michael Carrick: a consistent defensive shield for the back line and accurate distributor of the ball, central playmaker Ray Wilkins: connecting play across the pitch. On the flanks, dynamite Dane Jesper Olsen is the pacy dribbling winger who will run at defenders, while David Beckham is a pass-and-move side midfielder who offers high workrate in both the outside and inside channels. Beckham, Carrick and Wilkins can initiate quick vertical attacks and help dictate the tempo. A host of creative talents to feed my front two with crosses, long passes and through-balls. Beckham's inch-perfect delivery to the in-the-box/aerial prowess of Van Nistelrooy and Steve Bruce is a sure route to a goal.
Jaap Stam and Steve Bruce are an intimidating centreback partnership. Stam was a complete and dominant stopper, combining strength, athleticism and excellent positional sense. Bruce was a fearless warrior-like defender, known for his leadership, tough tackles, reading of the game and composure on the ball. Daley Blind is the more conservative fullback playing behind Olsen, while John Sivebæk will be encouraged to overlap Beckham on the right flank. Both fullbacks can deliver accurate crosses too, comfortable with the ball. Fabian Barthez is an ideal sweeper keeper, able to launch attacks with his quick throws or long passes.

Enigma Tactics

Formation: 4-3-3
Style: direct, balanced Fergie 00's style

Defence:
On goal we have Victor Valdes. He's someone who is very good with ball in his feed and his ability to launch a counter is the reason we picked him for this draft. In terms of accolades he might not be the most complete keeper but he was solid enough to win 6 La Liga titles and 3 CL playing for one of the greatest teams in history. Ahead of him we have Tony Dunne - United great and safely to say one of the finest defenders we ever had. Viv Anderson - another excellent and dependable English defender. For this draft we're counting on his Forest peak when he was a menace on the right and can overlap Strachan putting a surging runs whilst also having the lungs to man his flank. At the heart of the defence we have Paul McGrath who needs little introduction bossing the defence. Our upgrade in the CB position is Ronny Johnsen who was one of our key contributors for the treble winning side.

Midfield:
At the heart of midfield we have the German maestro at his peak Bayern/Germany days - Bastian Schweinsteiger. He will dictate the game and act as a two way box to box midfielder, having Casemiro cover for him in the defensive phase. Casemiro himself is the Real version who shields the back four and has a spectacular trophy cabinet to boot. On the right it's Gordan Strachan who will act as a wide playmaker in a wideish RCM role which he loved to occupy.

Attack:
Cristiano Ronaldo comes in to form a scary attacking line alongside tricky winger Arnold Muhren and Diego Forlan who found his form in La Liga after moving from his unsuccessful United stint leading the attack.

Player peaks:

Victor Valdes - (2009 -2012) - won 4 Zamora trophies and 2 times elected La Liga best keeper.
Viv Anderson - (1977 - 1982) - pillar for a great Forest team that enjoyed European and domestic success.
Tony Dunne - (1965 - 1968) - United dependable left back who needs little introduction but the most famous one - winning the CL after rupturing his achilles in the QF.
Paul McGrath - (90 - 94) - marred with injuries at United his class was evident when fit. His best years probably came at Villa and in the 94 WC where he put up a colossal performance

Ronny Johnsen - (1993 - 1997) - key figure in our treble winning run. Tall, very good in the air good counter for the opposition aerial threat
Arnold Muhren (1972/74 - 1978 - 1982) - a total footballer who can play in multiple roles in midfield. Elegant, technical, with a whip of a shot:

Gordon Strachan (1980 - 1985) - A wide playmaker, and very technical player he made his name at Aberdeen and was 4th in the Ballon D'or list in 83.

Bastian Schweinsteiger - (2010 -2014) - he needs little introduction but at his peak at Bayern he was one of the very elite when it comes to all action midfielders.

Casemiro - ( 2017-2022 ) - anchor and glue for one of the best Real teams in history.
Cristiano Ronaldo - (2007-2012) - United Cristiano when he became the best player in the world in our CL/PL double season and the rest is history.
Diego Forlan - ( 2007-2010 ) - I'll nick a description from @Physiocrat but the truth is after a negative stint at United he flourished for the NT and in La Liga, turning out to be one of the best strikers on his day:

Let’s not also forget that Diego Forlan was a complete and deadly striker. Joint-top scorer in the 2010 World Cup with 5 goals including a goal in both the quarters and semis, in addition to being named player of the tournament. Pichichi winner in 04-05 and 08-09. At his three year consecutive peak at Atletico Madrid between 07-10 he scored 66 goals in 102 league games. He was also one of the most two footed players I have ever seen. If you have time watch this video – it also showcases some of his aerial ability.
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Advantages:
- Best looking route to goal with Cristiano Ronaldo in his tricky and electric days against Daley Blind whose pace would make it harder to counter him. On top of that we have Viv Anderson who is one of the best English RB's and would provide support on that flank when in the attacking phase.
- Casemiro/Schweini/Strachan is one midfield that has it all. Casemiro and Schweini have proven themselves as being elite midfielders for years at the biggest stage whilst Strachan industrious and creative engine would provide plenty of opportunities for goal.
 
As with my previous game, having Beckham as my side midfielder gives me that extra X-factor you don’t get with a conventional winger who doesn’t help you on the defensive end:

“Wilkins is able to work in a 4-4-2 or 4-1-3-2: he wasn't a sitting deep-lying playmaker/#6 of a modern 4-3-3. He played advance of the holding playmaker Agostino Di Bartolomei in the 4-1-3-2 Milan midfield, and as part of a four in both Manchester United's and England's swashbuckling attacking units. Carrick can function alongside another creative player (Scholes, Anderson, Giggs) and high workrate side midfielder too (Hargreaves, Park, Fletcher), so I have no qualms with Carrick's synergy with Wilkins and Beckham.”


Examples of Beckham's 'wingplay', but involving himself centrally, wide, deep or advanced (my 4-1-3-2 formation can freely morph into 4-3-3 or 4-4-2):



 
Beckham + the rest of the supporting creative players (Tevez, Sivebæk, Carrick, Olsen..) feeding Ruud Van Nistelrooy and Steve Bruce is a cheat code:



 
So we all remember one of the most iconic goals in history and the goalscorer, but few remember it was Muhren who provided the assist for that goal:


a nice piece on him:

HOW THE UNDERRATED ARNOLD MÜHREN BECAME ONE OF EUROPE’S MOST DECORATED FOOTBALLERS
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“Of course it is the mention of the cross that you always see returning. Actually I hit it too hard. I have given dozens of better passes in my career. If Marco van Basten had shot that ball to Cologne, everyone would have said that he could do little with that cross. Now it was suddenly the most beautiful assist ever. Marco made it so beautiful with that fantastic finish.”
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Arnold Mühren, in conversation with Voetbal International, was downplaying the significance of his contribution to what remains the Netherlands’ greatest success on the international stage.
In an illustrious career, during which he became one of only a handful of players to win all the major European club competitions, Mühren’s greatest moment arguably came in the final of the 1988 European Championship, against the erstwhile Soviet Union, when Marco van Basten turned his pinpoint cross into the most spectacular volley ever.
In the twilight of his career, Mühren was part of the Netherlands team that won Euro 88. At 37 years and 23 days, he was, and still is, the oldest European Championship winner. While Mühren admits that the triumph was “absolute highlight of my career”, he has reiterated that the assist he is best remembered for was “actually a poor cross”.
His modesty isn’t strange for someone who was quick to realise he was always going to play a supporting role in his career; forever the bridesmaid but never actually the bride. “It’s in our character [the Mühren brothers], putting yourself in the service of others. Football is a team sport in which you have to use each other’s qualities. We were in the service of the better players,” Mühren once said.
In fact, it was this grasp of reality early on that helped him to an immensely successful career lined with silver. While he may have lacked the skill of Johan Cruyff and the verve of Johan Neeskens, he made up for it through his brilliant consistency, professionalism and determination.
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Mühren joined Ajax from FC Volendam in 1971 aged just 20. The Amsterdam side had just lifted their maiden European Cup and included in their ranks stalwarts like Cruyff, Neeskens, Johnny Rep, Sjaak Swart, Ruud Krol, Piet Keizer, Wim Suurbier and Arie Haan; individuals with strong personalities and world-class talent.
With elder brother Gerrie – also a left-sided midfielder – the preferred choice, it was palpable that the younger of the Mühren siblings had to content with the role of a substitute under legendary Romanian manager Ștefan Kovács.
Arnold played 62 league games in his first stint with the Amsterdammers between 1971 and 1974, winning the Eredivisie twice. Mühren was also part of the side that won a third straight European Cup, playing for a few minutes in the quarter-final second leg against Bayern Munich and the semi-final first leg against Real Madrid.
He played the entire 90 minutes in the semi-final second leg in Madrid, watching his elder brother score the winner and then juggle the ball to torment his opponents, indicating a shift in the balance of power, both in terms of success and ideology from Madrid to Amsterdam.
Though his contribution was less significant, Arnold nevertheless had plenty of silverware in his cabinet by the time he left the capital.
His next assignment, in Enschede, saw him play a bigger role. During a four-year stint, he helped Twente reach the UEFA Cup final in 1975, losing to German side Borussia Mönchengladbach, and win the KNVB Beker in 1977. Then came the opportunity that helped establish his reputation as one of the best players of his generation.
Impressed with Mühren’s performances in Enschede, Bobby Robson didn’t hesitate to pay £150,000, a considerable sum back then, to bring him to Ipswich Town in 1978. A year later, another Dutchman, Frans Thijssen – Mühren’s teammate at Twente – joined the English side, and the duo, amongst the earliest overseas superstars to play at the highest level in England, combined to form a formidable midfield axis and ensure the most successful period in the history of the Suffolk club.

While some wondered whether the Dutchman from the Total Football side of Ajax could adapt to the English game, Mühren instead ensured that English football adapted around him. “Ipswich played like a Dutch team,” he once told the Independent, “and proved it was possible to play that way and be successful.”
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Mühren played a pivotal role as Ipswich won the FA Cup in 1978, the UEFA Cup in 1981 and twice finished runners-up in the First Division. Robson was palpably pleased to see his decision vindicated, and was fond of the player’s character. “Mühren was a wonderful passer, great vision. I cannot think of anyone I would rate higher as a professional than Arnold. No one works harder and when the match is over, he won’t go out drinking. He goes to bed,” the legendary England manager was quoted as saying by the media.
Soon after Robson left Ipswich to take over the mantle of the England national team, Mühren was looking for pastures new. He opted for Ron Atkinson’s Manchester United. While only the first of his three seasons at Old Trafford could be considered a success, winning the FA Cup and scoring a penalty in the final replay against Brighton, Mühren had valid reason to back his move north. “I thought it was my last chance to play for such a big club,” he confessed later, adding, “But I didn’t know that I’d play for Ajax again for another three years after that.”
That return to Amsterdam was bolstered by the desire to play under Cruyff, who was now managing Ajax, and helped him add the only major silverware missing from his trophy cabinet – the now-defunct Cup Winners’ Cup in 1987. More importantly, it also afforded Mühren, aged 36, a last shot at making an impression with the national team.
For all his success at club level, Mühren seldom had the chance to wear the famous Oranje, such was the depth of the Dutch squad in those days. Despite being a graceful midfielder and comfortable on the ball, Mühren was often underrated, ignored for more outwardly gifted players and those plying their trade on the continent.
As a result, he has something of an unwanted record in common with the likes of Alfredo Di Stéfano, George Best, Eric Cantona, George Weah, Ian Rush and Ryan Giggs. Like the aforementioned legends, Mühren never got the opportunity to play at the biggest tournament of them all: the World Cup.
A rookie Mühren was never in contention for the 1974 squad that made the final in Germany, becoming synonymous with Total Football. In fact, manager Rinus Michels had asked the elder of the siblings, Gerrie, at the peak of his powers, to join the squad. However, Gerrie refused due to the ill health of his son.

In the run-up to the 1978 World Cup, the younger Mühren made his debut for the national team in a friendly against Tunisia, but didn’t make the squad that travelled to Argentina. The Netherlands reached the final for a second straight time, again losing to the host nation.
He did feature in the qualification for the 1982 edition, scoring the winner against France and a penalty in the 2-2 draw against the Republic of Ireland. However, losing both their opening matches – away to Ireland and Belgium – came back to haunt the Dutch. Another loss to France in their final qualifier in Paris meant that the Netherlands could finish only fourth in Group 2, with Belgium and France making it to Spain.
The qualification for the 1986 ended in another failure for the Netherlands, unable get it past neighbours Belgium in the playoffs. However, by then a new generation of Dutch players had come into the team. As a result, Mühren, who symbolised the failure of the old for some, failed to gain a place in the squad.
From his fledgeling career to his peak to his twilight years, Mühren had witnessed four World Cup tournaments without being a part of any of them. To his credit, he was gracious enough to accept the reality. “In my career at the various clubs, I grabbed all the big prizes. For me, however, 1988 was the crowning glory of my career.
“I am very proud to have been part of two major generations of Dutch football. In 1971 I came to an Ajax team having Cruyff, Keizer and Neeskens – who had just won a maiden European Cup – and as a 37-year old, I won the European

The fact remains that Mühren’s selection for the Euro 88 squad – his first European Championship following non-selection in 1976 and 1980, and the failure of the team to qualify in 1984 – was as much down to luck as anything. “ I was the only odd duck in the middle of that Oranje selection in terms of age. But I never felt like a father figure. Not even when I returned to Ajax. Then I was 35,” Mühren was quoted as saying to the media.
“In 1987 they lacked a left-sided player during qualifying. At one point, Ronald Koeman even played on the left. And even though Koeman was a fantastic footballer, they got me out of the stable.”
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In the remaining qualifiers, Mühren scored the second goal in a 2-0 win over Hungary. It was his third and final goal for his country, with all three of them coming at De Kuip in Rotterdam.
In the tournament proper, the 37-year-old used the wealth of experience he had to his advantage. Even though he was again a sidekick, amidst a gamut of star names, Mühren played his role to perfection. His calm head and sublime passing served the team particularly well, and they recovered from an opening defeat against the Soviet Union to set up a final against the same opponents.
“The crazy thing was, in the Netherlands everyone thought after the semi-final against West Germany that we would win the final,” recalled Mühren. “It’s the biggest nonsense I had ever heard. The final was against Russia and it had to be won. That’s why I was immediately focused on them. I knew it would be my last international match.
“I stayed on the field for 90 minutes despite my age. I was also pretty fit and, in my opinion, Michels also allowed me to make it to the final whistle. You cannot wish for a nicer farewell. To win something with your country is beautiful.”
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In fact, 10 of Mühren’s 23 matches for the national side had come during Euro 88; five in the qualifiers and five in the tournament proper. In his final appearance, he had made a key contribution to the winning cause in the form of that famous looping cross. It’s what many outside of his homeland and England remember him for. Even though he missed out on opportunities to represent his country on the biggest stage, the Dutch victory at the Olympiastadion in Munich ensured a perfect swansong for Mühren.
It has been more than 30 years since the Netherlands won their only major international title. “The 1988 championship is the only tournament we ever won, and whenever a big championship comes about, everybody is talking about it,” Mühren was quoted as saying by the Irish Times. “I look back on 1988 with great memories, but it is about time that another Dutch team won a major tournament.”
With a new generation of stars waiting in the wings, ready to elevate the Dutch to their standards of old, perhaps there’s another Arnold Mühren behind the scenes, patiently biding his time, underrated and quiet, but determined to leave a mark on the world of football.
 
And to me the most viable route to goal is Cristiano vs Blind:


a flashback to when Cristiano used to be good and became the best player in the world.

 
I always saw Arnold Muhren as a creative attacking midfielder or side playmaker (not as as a left wingforward of a front three) where he will invariably move inside centrally (he was slow, but technical). Tony Dunne was neither the overlapping/attacking left wingback type to work your flank either.
 
Enigma_87 said:
And to me the most viable route to goal is Cristiano vs Blind:


a flashback to when Cristiano used to be good and became the best player in the world.

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Blind's game was never about pace or physique, instead anticiption, reading of the game and well-time interceptions (this allowed him to excel defensively into his 30s and for his country for over a decade as a LB, CB or DM/DLP. I would always favour positional intelligence in a fullback too. Ronaldo won't get that space he needs, with Stam, Bruce and Blind marshalling that backline, and covering for eachother (all excellent communicators and readers of the game).

Sivebæk will be the fullback who detaches himself from that back four (with his overlapping runs, with Beckham naturally cutting in). Whereas Jesper Olsen on the left (pacey, dribbling trickster-type winger) will run that wide channel (plus less defensive workrate than Beckham), so Blind will naturally sit back/invert more (that's not to say he's confident on the ball himself in passing transitions, able to deliver an accurate cross).

Carrick also the master at blocking passing lanes to Ronaldo.
 
BIG DUNK said:
I always saw Arnold Muhren as a creative attacking midfielder or side playmaker (not as as a left wingforward of a front three) where he will invariably move inside centrally (he was slow, but technical). Tony Dunne was neither the overlapping/attacking left wingback type to work your flank either.
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Nah, he could do both. Can tuck in or keep width on the left. Was a true total footballer in terms of versatility.



he could also run all the way to the defensive line and tackle from behind like in the above example at around 1:20.
 
BIG DUNK said:
Blind's game was never about pace or physique, instead anticiption, reading of the game and well-time interceptions (this allowed him to excel defensively into his 30s and for his country for over a decade as a LB, CB or DM/DLP. I would always favour positional intelligence in a fullback too. Ronaldo won't get that space he needs, with Stam, Bruce and Blind marshalling that backline, and covering for eachother (all excellent communicators and readers of the game).

Sivebæk will be the fullback who detaches himself from that back four (with his overlapping runs, with Beckham naturally cutting in). Whereas Jesper Olsen on the left (pacey, dribbling trickster-type winger) will run that wide channel (plus less defensive workrate than Beckham), so Blind will naturally sit back/invert more (that's not to say he's confident on the ball himself, able to deliver an accurate cross himself).

Carrick also the master at blocking passing lanes to Ronaldo.
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I can understand what you mean, but in reality Carrick, Blind, Bruce (I think Wilkins too) are the same when it comes to pace. Neither of them boasted with a lot of pace and Cristiano is the best player on the park and at the time he was blistering.

Yes, obviously all are smart players, but Ronaldo had the first step at the time to detach himself from the defender and burst into the box. On that side both Bruce and Blind are not at their best.

Becks also wasn't the fastest players on the pitch and Forlan as well was pretty quick on the mark.

I think on counter especially both Bruce and Blind will struggle containing Ronaldo.

Olsen from what I know about him was as you said fast tricky winger who most likely won't provide the same support as Becks would do on the other channel.
 
Enigma_87 said:
Nah, he could do both. Can tuck in or keep width on the left. Was a true total footballer in terms of versatility.



he could also run all the way to the defensive line and tackle from behind like in the above example at around 1:20.
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"Can tuck in or keep width on the left" - I don't think he's a "true total footballer" when compared to the other versatile Dutch greats.

I would actually say his optimal role would be in a 4-3-3, in midfield as the left sided central midfielder (or 4-4-2 side midfielder with an overlapping left back), with a mobile wingforward infront of him, and physical box-to-box runner next to him.
 
Enigma_87 said:
I can understand what you mean, but in reality Carrick, Blind, Bruce (I think Wilkins too) are the same when it comes to pace. Neither of them boasted with a lot of pace and Cristiano is the best player on the park and at the time he was blistering.

Yes, obviously all are smart players, but Ronaldo had the first step at the time to detach himself from the defender and burst into the box. On that side both Bruce and Blind are not at their best.

Becks also wasn't the fastest players on the pitch and Forlan as well was pretty quick on the mark.

I think on counter especially both Bruce and Blind will struggle containing Ronaldo.

Olsen from what I know about him was as you said fast tricky winger who most likely won't provide the same support as Becks would do on the other channel.
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Carrick's defensive job on Lampard/Chelsea gives me faith that he'll help to both deprive and isolate Forlan/Ronaldo up top when facing Schweini and Strachan. No pace, but possessing expert awareness, reading of the game and positional intelligence.

Wilkins and Beckham have also faired well against pacey/creative dribbling types, sweeping up and breaking down play infront of their back four. My midfield will frustrate your playmakers + starve your attack. Being faster is not a trump card.
 
BIG DUNK said:
"Can tuck in or keep width on the left" - I don't think he's a "true total footballer" when compared to the other versatile Dutch greats.

I would actually say his optimal role would be in a 4-3-3, in midfield as the left sided central midfielder (or 4-4-2 side midfielder with an overlapping left back), with a mobile wingforward infront of him, and physical box-to-box runner next to him.
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I meant that he could play either as a side midfielder or as a left winger. He’s playing here in 4-3-3 but not really the main goal scoring threat. That’s Forlan and Ronaldo.
Then we also have Strachan and Schweinsteiger.

Muhren is mainly a provider but good enough for 1 in 3 score a guy and considerable threat on the left.

On the opposite end I like Tevez more with a more dynamic partner than Ruud tbh. Tevez was at his best either as a glue guy in a highly dynamic trio between him, Rooney and Ronaldo, or as a main man at City and Juve
 
BIG DUNK said:



Carrick's defensive job on Lampard/Chelsea gives me faith that he'll help to both deprive and isolate Forlan/Ronaldo up top when facing Schweini and Strachan. No pace, but possessing expert awareness, reading of the game and positional intelligence.

Wilkins and Beckham have also faired well against pacey/creative dribbling types, sweeping up and breaking down play infront of their back four. My midfield will frustrate your playmakers + starve your attack. Being faster is not a trump card.
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I think the game you posted is quite different than the one here in play.
First of all it included finished Sheva and also when we faced Barca midfield we were either totally overran or played very conservative style.

here he’s facing peak Schweinsteiger and Casemiro. Both of them were one of the elite in their positions in the last 20 years and Strachan who is not a slouch helped by Muhren.

To me we have the upper hand in the middle of the park and is switching pace would catch most of the one pace players in your team like Bruce, Blind, Carrick etc.
 

To recall one of the best Bayern performances against prime Barca team. Schweini and Casemiro IMO are even better match that can influence the game.
 
A very close game, excellent team and good luck in the semis. I'm glad Forlan is getting respected - an ideal forward (of the Benzema mould) to play with CR7. I preferred your previous midfield but understand the shape change after the signing of GOAT-CR7.
 
Was Olsen highly rated at United? i've mostly watched him with Denmark. He had excellent dribbling capabilities, not brainless with it, but also seemed physically quite feeble and lacking positional smarts. That meant he was often muscled or shut out of games for long periods of time, even though he didn't back down easily. 1980s English league seems like a tough move.
 
BIG DUNK said:
A very close game, excellent team and good luck in the semis. I'm glad Forlan is getting respected - an ideal forward (of the Benzema mould) to play with CR7. I preferred your previous midfield but understand the shape change after the signing of GOAT-CR7.
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Cheers, mate. Yeah Forlan is great foil for Cristiano both in his Real and United stint.

I wanted to put Cristiano against Blind hence changing the formation, but also I didn't want to drop Muhren, who I've watched recently and grew to love him.

Dunno it was the right choice at the end as probably Cristiano on the left and more conventional 4-3-3 might pull more likes, which is one for the next game I guess.
 
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