Utd Draft: Final - Michaelf7 vs Enigma

With players at their career (not Utd) peak, who would win?

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    12
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Physiocrat

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Michaelf7

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Enigma

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Michaelf7 Tactics

My team will play a 4-3-3 formation with George Best having the freedom to either cut inside or stay out wide on the left hand side with Park playing as a left hand side box-to-box midfielder who can choose to stay central or drift out wide particularly when Best cuts inside. I have made two changes to my starting line up from the semi final. Firstly, as looking t his squad Enigma is likely to play a 4-4-2, Park returns to the team in place of Stiles with Edwards playing as a defensive midfielder. Secondly, 1964 Ballon D'or winner Denis Law replaces Edinson Cavani to add more goalscoring prowess up front. For United, Law scored 237 goals in 404 games including in a 3 season period 29 goals in 44 games in 1962-63 (when United finished 19th), 46 in 42 in the 1963-64 season and 39 in 52 in the 1964-65 season. I will now go over some of the strengths that I feel I have in this match up before giving information on some of the less well known players in my team.

Strengths

  • Firstly, I think I have a significant advantage offensively in wide area's with the presumed match ups of George Best vs. Viv Anderson and Stanley Matthews vs. Tony Dunne.
  • Secondly, assuming Enigma lines up in the 4-4-2 which imo suits his squad the best, I will have a 3 on 2 numbers advantage in the central midfield battle where there is no significant gap in overall CM quality between the 2 teams. This can be mitigated by Beckham moving inside more but would be risky given that would then leave Anderson alone on my left wing/Enigma's right wing against George Best and sometimes Park Ji-sung.
Gary Bailey - For eight consecutive seasons at Manchester United (78/79-85/86) Bailey made at least 30 appearances for Manchester United keeping 161 clean sheets in 375 appearances. He also won 2 England caps which given the English GK's available in this era including Shilton and Clemence is impressive as is his being included consistently as an overage player in the England under 21's side (Source). He picked up a major injury which largely ended his career in Europe at the 1986 World Cup when he was only 27 (which is young for a GK). Even when United conceded a lot of goals he still played well such as in a 6-0 loss to Ipswich where he was at fault for none of the goals and saved 3 penalties (Source) or a 5-3 loss to West Brom where he was man of the match (Source). In 2012 Peter Schmeichel included Bailey in a list of his 5 favourite GK's of all time to watch (when changed to best he swapped him out for one of Peter Shilton, Sepp Maier, Neville Southall, Dino Zoff and Manuel Neuer) (Source).

Noel Cantwell - Noel Cantwell was an Irish LB who after signing for Manchester United in 1960 spent 7 years at the club winning 2 league titles and an FA Cup. When playing at West Ham prior to signing for Manchester United he was one of the three mentors that Bobby Moore had (Source). When referring to Cantwell Bobby Charlton stated that "...sometimes the quality of his playing ability was overlooked, but he was a defender of considerable class, strong on the left side and with a very nice touch" (Source). In a 2005 obituary, journalist Brian Glanville described Cantwell as follows:

Essentially a left-back, though versatile enough in the years after he had moved, in season 1960-61, to represent Ireland at centre-forward, Cantwell was a strong header of the ball, an excellent positional player and, those were the days before the four-man defence and the overlapping full back, always eager to move upfield and have a crack at goal. He scored 16 League goals for West Ham, and another 19 for Manchester United.
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Source

Johnny Giles - Johnny Giles was an Irish midfielder who was a key part of the great Leeds team of the late 1960's and early 1970's and was chosen by the Republic of Ireland as it's golden player of the previous 50 years at the UEFA jubilee awards in 2004 (over the likes of Roy Keane, Paul McGrath, Denis Irwin and Liam Brady). Giles was included in the PFA 1st division team of the year in 1973/74 (the first season in which the PFA chose such teams). Giles formed a great partnership with Billy Bremner at Leeds with Giles being more of a creator and Bremner more of a ball winner but both were capable of doing the other task. Chris Kamara described Giles as follows:

“Not only was [John Giles] strong but he could see a pass that was in another world – the vision – and he would land it on a sixpence for the players in front of him.

“And Billy was his little combative midfield player alongside him but Johnny had that vision and passing ability that was something else. He could see in the dark.

“He was my all-time favourite domestic player but I would have to say Pele was my favourite player.
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Source

Enigma Tactics

Formation: 4-4-2
Style: direct, balanced Fergie 90's style

Defence:
On goal we have Victor Valdes. He's someone who is very good with ball in his feed and his ability to launch a counter is the reason we picked him for this draft. In terms of accolades he might not be the most complete keeper but he was solid enough to win 6 La Liga titles and 3 CL playing for one of the greatest teams in history. Ahead of him we have Tony Dunne - United great and safely to say one of the finest defenders we ever had. Viv Anderson - another excellent and dependable English defender. For this draft we're counting on his Forest peak when he was a menace on the right and can work with Beckham putting a surging runs whilst also having the lungs to man his flank. At the heart of the defence we have Paul McGrath who will be the more aggressive stopper figure, whilst Rio Ferdinand will employ his natural Rolls Royce of a elegant defender role.

Midfield:
At the heart of midfield we have the German maestro at his peak Bayern/Germany days - Bastian Schweinsteiger. He will dictate the game and act as a two way box to box midfielder, having Casemiro cover for him in the defensive phase. Casemiro himself is the Real version who shields the back four and has a spectacular trophy cabinet to boot. The biggest upgrades are on the flanks. A very familiar duo - David Beckham and Ryan Giggs are on the right and left. They play their natural roles in the late 90's when they were at the height of their powers.

Attack:
Cristiano Ronaldo comes in to form a scary attacking line alongside Diego Forlan who found his form in La Liga after moving from his unsuccessful United stint leading the attack. Forlan will work with Cristiano, who will be in a free role. Diego style of play is something Cristiano would like as he compliments him well and will allow him to roam forward whilst also opening space for attacking the box.

Player peaks:

Victor Valdes - (2009 -2012) - won 4 Zamora trophies and 2 times elected La Liga best keeper.
Viv Anderson - (1977 - 1982) - pillar for a great Forest team that enjoyed European and domestic success.
Tony Dunne - (1965 - 1968) - United dependable left back who needs little introduction but the most famous one - winning the CL after rupturing his achilles in the QF.
Paul McGrath - (90 - 94) - marred with injuries at United his class was evident when fit. His best years probably came at Villa and in the 94 WC where he put up a colossal performance


Rio Ferdinand - (2005- 2007) - Comfortably our greatest defender ever. Fast, great reading of the game and doesn't even need to throw himself around to dispossess the attacker.
Ryan Giggs (1998-02) - one of the greatest and fastest wingers the PL ever saw.


David Beckham (1998-02) - A wide playmaker, the benchmark when it comes to crossing and finding a teammate in the box.


Bastian Schweinsteiger - (2010 -2014) - he needs little introduction but at his peak at Bayern he was one of the very elite when it comes to all action midfielders.


Casemiro - ( 2017-2022 ) - anchor and glue for one of the best Real teams in history.
Cristiano Ronaldo - (2013-2018) - Cristiano peak at Real Madrid, when he turned out to be one of the greatest goalscorers the game ever seeon.
Diego Forlan - ( 2007-2010 ) - I'll nick a description from @Physiocrat but the truth is after a negative stint at United he flourished for the NT and in La Liga, turning out to be one of the best strikers on his day:

Let’s not also forget that Diego Forlan was a complete and deadly striker. Joint-top scorer in the 2010 World Cup with 5 goals including a goal in both the quarters and semis, in addition to being named player of the tournament. Pichichi winner in 04-05 and 08-09. At his three year consecutive peak at Atletico Madrid between 07-10 he scored 66 goals in 102 league games. He was also one of the most two footed players I have ever seen. If you have time watch this video – it also showcases some of his aerial ability.
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To kick it off, I think Mike missed a trick here for not picking Charlton.
He would've been the glue for the attacking third in his team and link the midfield and attack, whilst also being a pivotal figure at the middle of the park.

Currently I think we have the upper hand there with one of United best wing duos - Giggs and Becks, whilst also having Schweini and Casemiro holding fort in the middle.

Also in terms of defences I think Becks can have some luck against Cantwell whilst also Cristiano can glide in between the opposition CB pair and possibly exploit Blanc's lack of pace.

On the other end Anderson is a good fit for Best, although to be fair I don't expect to shut him down naturally, but he has the assistance of McGrath who is also very fluent in a RCB role and ability to cover for a full back.

Rio is also as good match as it gets for Law and Casemiro can help out in the hole when he drops deep. The lack of quality #10 in the opposition team IMO makes our defence a little more suited to counter the opposition strengths.
 
@Enigma_87 Sorry, I used the old formation pic to begin with. Edited it now. Btw why is Rio at LCB? I always remember him at RCB.
 
Enigma_87 said:
To kick it off, I think Mike missed a trick here for not picking Charlton.
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Yeah, there's such a perfectly Charlton-shaped hole in his midfield!

Not that his team is bad or anything but he would've elevated the whole team by so much.
 
if any final scrams Draft Game its this one, 5(?) upgrades until this game and keepers are Gary Bailey and Victor Valdes......
 
outside of Sir Bobby, IMO the best possible upgrade that improves the actual team rather then individual improvement would be Mark Hughes. Law would be brilliant if mike moved to 442
 
Physiocrat said:
@Enigma_87 Sorry, I used the old formation pic to begin with. Edited it now. Btw why is Rio at LCB? I always remember him at RCB.
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It’s marginally because McGrath is the one I wanted to cover that side and mind Best. I think Rio was a LCB at Leeds from memory ? But either way should play much part in the game IMO
 
Enigma_87 said:
It’s marginally because McGrath is the one I wanted to cover that side and mind Best. I think Rio was a LCB at Leeds from memory ? But either way should play much part in the game IMO
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Fair enough. I can see that.
 
Got to agree here that Mike has made this needlessly difficult for himself here. Charlton as the final reinforcement in a 4-3-3, or Law up front with Cavani in a 4-4-2 looked the better choices. Still edging towards him though. He got such a big jump on everyone in the initial drafting from that Matthews masterstroke, and after getting a bit lucky in navigating the first round with that poor McQueen/Berg/Amrabat defensive spine he's went from strength to strength.
 
Pat_Mustard said:
Got to agree here that Mike has made this needlessly difficult for himself here. Charlton as the final reinforcement in a 4-3-3, or Law up front with Cavani in a 4-4-2 looked the better choices. Still edging towards him though. He got such a big jump on everyone in the initial drafting from that Matthews masterstroke, and after getting a bit lucky in navigating the first round with that poor McQueen/Berg/Amrabat defensive spine he's went from strength to strength.
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That’s true, but I think goes both ways as the front 6 considering it’s also peak Schweinsteiger and Casemiro would certainly be match for match and to me better whilst not much to separate both defences.

I’d certainly put Ferdinand as the best CB on the park whilst not much between Stam and McGrath.
I do believe that especially in the middle of the park we have better quality and fit.
 
Pat_Mustard said:
Got to agree here that Mike has made this needlessly difficult for himself here. Charlton as the final reinforcement in a 4-3-3, or Law up front with Cavani in a 4-4-2 looked the better choices. Still edging towards him though. He got such a big jump on everyone in the initial drafting from that Matthews masterstroke, and after getting a bit lucky in navigating the first round with that poor McQueen/Berg/Amrabat defensive spine he's went from strength to strength.
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IMO this is basically a 442 from Mike with Best as a roaming SS with Park as a hybrid LM/LCM. That said, yes Cavani and Law front 2 would have been very nice.
 
Don't really feel Mike's midfield. Enigma has a more balanced approach.

But the match between Mike's wide men vs Enigma's fullbacks would give him the edge...which is a shame as his rest of Enigma's team is brilliant!

Leaning towards Mike for now.
 
Didnt want to give this to him, but Pat is right, even with Mike trying his best to lose this game, he has the better team. Doesnt deserve the vote from a drafting point of view but Best/Matthews against any fullback pairing in United history is a bloodbath waiting to happen. Bastard also blocks Irwin for good measure.
 
GodShaveTheQueen said:
Didnt want to give this to him, but Pat is right, even with Mike trying his best to lose this game, he has the better team. Doesnt deserve the vote from a drafting point of view but Best/Matthews against any fullback pairing in United history is a bloodbath waiting to happen. Bastard also blocks Irwin for good measure.
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TBH, Anderson has the credentials to put up a fight there and IMO our CB pair can deploy a spare man compared to the opposition where you still have a mismatch in Becks against Cantwell. Our midfield is also better so it can exert control and not allow much time on the ball for the opposition.
 
A flashback of our own wingers who I think get a bit of a rough edge here considering they can also put their stamp on the game.

Giggs:



Becks:


the chemistry is also there, a highlight reel of them passing to each other:


Both also bring considerable work rate to the table and ability to switch the tempo and find both Forlan and Cristiano into space, whilst also being able to finish on their own.
 
Coin toss for a final? Re open the poll indefinitely till someone gets the first vote
 
physio and mike are cheating, its a two tail coin....enigma welcome aboard on the victim train
 
What a shame. All these days of drafting for a coin toss to decide the winner.
 
I couldn't decide who to vote for. If I voted it would have been the equivalent of a coin toss anyway
 
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