Uniteds Tactical Weakness

[zippy]

After going to old trafford and watching the borough and bolton games it became blatantly obvious what our problem is tactically.

currently we have only one player capable of dribbling past a man, and that is giggs, opposition deal with him by ensuring that their right middfielder backs up the righ back, meaning if giggs gets past one the other will be there. In order for us to open up the game we attempt to pass our way through, however our opposition has learned that if they keep behined the ball and simply jockey us it is hard for us to create any space.
IMO it has reached the point where we NEED a midfielder with the ability to take a man on in order to open up the options, i still say joe cole or someone like him would have been good for us. our passing game is very poor at the moment and in truth has been for some time, RVN is having problems with his first touch and is unable to hold the ball up but even when he does options are limited and goalscoring chances are few.

Comments?

 

[Sharkey]

i would but am too wrecked <img src="graemlins/houllier.gif" border="0" alt="[Houllier]" /> <img src="graemlins/angel.gif" border="0" alt="[Angel]" />

 

[zippy]

In addition i would also say that the drive and determination required against stubborn teams like bolton is currently missing, beckham only came to life and showed the kind of commitment needed after he made the mistake that led to the goal; where was this commitment for the first 70 odd minutes?

After reading keanes book i understand where he's coming from.. were still not hungry enough.

 

[darko]

I have to totally agree with Zippy. Without Giggs, there is no one who takes on opponents. I'm not quite sure what can be done other than buying another player. But, what will be done. If another player is bought, he should be able to play the right side. What system would be employed?

In my opinion, Scholes has to play in CM because of his abilty to get in the box from midfield and score. Veron simply can't do this at all. United also need a RB in the mold of a Cafu. If they had this player, then Beckham can be left to play RM. Otherwise a RM is needed. Is Joe Cole the answer to play RM? At any rate, I'd like to see him play with United.

Also, I like Robbie Keane would have been a good choice as a striker with the ability to run at defenders and also score.

I think United has a good 14 players. They probly need 3 more to add strength to the squad.

Again, defending is not the problem.

 

[zippy]

Originally posted by darko:
<strong>
Is Joe Cole the answer to play RM?

Again, defending is not the problem.</strong><hr></blockquote>

from what i have seen of joe cole i think he is versatile enough to play right or center, the main thing is that he can get passed a man, did you see the penalty he won for west ham against arsenal? a beutifull dribble into the box forced a defender to bring him down, when was the last time you saw a united player dribble into the box past a couple of defenders? giggs v arsenal a few years ago is all i can remember and that was a one in a million. I'm sorry to say that nicky butt doesnt impress me that much, a decent player but is he of manchester united class? i dont know. I think it is a shame though that we havent brought anyone in as a keane prodigy, maybe the kid stewart is good enough?. Veron is a decent player but the more i watch him the more i think his game is more suitable for the continent - he is not happy playing at the english games pace, i hope he can prove me wrong but time is running out for him.

Ferguson knows that we need someone to open things up, his attempt at trying to sign d'canio shows this, but after that failed why did he not persue someone else? at this point i'd even take trevor sinclair... you are right defense is not the problem; attacking creativity flair is.

 

[redmad]

United also need a RB in the mold of a cafu

<hr></blockquote>

Agreed & since he was being offered on a Free by Roma (contract conditions applying 40,000 pw) why the hell didnt we sign him?

 

[Amir]

Originally posted by redmad:
<strong>

Agreed & since he was being offered on a Free by Roma (contract conditions applying 40,000 pw) why the hell didnt we sign him?</strong><hr></blockquote>

From the same reason no one else did - he wasn't offered for free.

 

[Penny]

Agreed with you guys ... I am not critising the general tactic here but we seriously lack of somthing called ROBUST MOBILITY in the team ... and I am not talking abt the ball moving ... I am talking abt player movement instead ... We have been famous for wing play for a long long time now ... players taking on opponent and flying down the flanks ... From Besty till Olsen, Kanchelski and then Giggsy ... Other teams watched and learned ... while we sit still and never built on further ...
The current problem is that we are pumping just too many long balls ... or else the ball just criss-crossing at the middle-line from legs to legs ... and I mean, stationary pairs of legs !! ... Veron and Beckham look a true believer of passing - no problem with that but when it failed to penetrate, we looks absolutely toothless ... We only expect Giggsy to take on opponent but heyy ... he's just one player (but I have to say that he's not doing well either to his standard lately ... and after 10years in top-flight, his right leg still no way near decent) ...

That's where I believe actually pumping in nippy youngster at this stage could actually make things more "unpredictable" for the opponent and hence creating a bit more havoc at opposition half ... we are just too STONE lately ... <img src="graemlins/houllier.gif" border="0" alt="[Houllier]" />

 

[dmode]

feck off!!! There are no weaknesses, we have great strikers, top class midfielders and let's face it our defendence is great... the only problem is that the team should get used to the absence of Keano... it'll take some time... patience... it's not the end of the world, beleive me...

 

[Rod]

How is Luke Chadwick progressing ? Yeah I know I asked this question last season. At least he can bloody dribble.

 

[zippy]

Originally posted by dmode:
<strong>feck off!!! There are no weaknesses, we have great strikers, top class midfielders and let's face it our defendence is great... the only problem is that the team should get used to the absence of Keano... it'll take some time... patience... it's not the end of the world, beleive me... </strong><hr></blockquote>

I dont think you are seeing what everyone else, even ferguson, is seeing- we have no attacking flair, other teams have got the 'make' on us and its becoming a real problem.
Penny stated that there are to many long balls and that it right to, a ball chipped up to RVN from the half way line will be a defenders ball about 99.9% of the time and theres a lot of that going on - a sign of a team that lacks imagination.

Face it, we are in trouble.

 

[ste_grassham]

Originally posted by zippy:
<strong>After going to old trafford and watching the borough and bolton games it became blatantly obvious what our problem is tactically.

currently we have only one player capable of dribbling past a man, and that is giggs, opposition deal with him by ensuring that their right middfielder backs up the righ back, meaning if giggs gets past one the other will be there. In order for us to open up the game we attempt to pass our way through, however our opposition has learned that if they keep behined the ball and simply jockey us it is hard for us to create any space.
IMO it has reached the point where we NEED a midfielder with the ability to take a man on in order to open up the options, i still say joe cole or someone like him would have been good for us. our passing game is very poor at the moment and in truth has been for some time, RVN is having problems with his first touch and is unable to hold the ball up but even when he does options are limited and goalscoring chances are few.

Comments?</strong><hr></blockquote>

its spelt BORO not borough!

 

[giggzy]

Originally posted by ste_grassham:
<strong>

its spelt BORO not borough!</strong><hr></blockquote>

actually its spelt Brough

 

[ste_grassham]

Originally posted by giggzy:
<strong>

actually its spelt Brough</strong><hr></blockquote>

well lets get this right! as i live 5miles from the town! there nickname is boro, they come from middlesbrough! he called them borough! which is so very wrong! and i thank you

 

[giggzy]

Originally posted by ste_grassham:
<strong>

well lets get this right! as i live 5miles from the town! there nickname is boro, they come from middlesbrough! he called them borough! which is so very wrong! and i thank you</strong><hr></blockquote>

i know, just pointing out its Middlesbrough not MiddlesbOrough..


anyway, who gives a feck about them geordie tossers........?

 

[ste_grassham]

Originally posted by giggzy:
<strong>

i know, just pointing out its Middlesbrough not MiddlesbOrough..


anyway, who gives a feck about them geordie tossers........?</strong><hr></blockquote>

no they are called smoggys! and they are wanky anyway, but i did go to the sunderland match last week and managed to start a theres only one keano chant to jason macaqueer.. i laghed my balls off. newcastle are geordies, mackems are sunderland and somg monsters are the boro! not that is interesting!

 

[giggzy]

Originally posted by ste_grassham:
<strong>

i laghed my balls off. newcastle are geordies, mackems are sunderland and somg monsters are the boro! not that is interesting!</strong><hr></blockquote>

maybe but they all speak in that annoying geordie accent.. so...they'll always be geordies in my eyes.

 

[MrBurns]

so who are Monkey hangers then

 

[buzet44]

We were and are tactically weak. We are still a one-dimensional team.....4-4-2. We failed in Europe after winning in Barcelona and Ferguson saw this....Veron and Nistelrooy were his answer.
Now we have Ferdinand...all record buys...but sometimes I think our scouting reports come straight off the back page of the Sun and the Mirror.
We may break the bank but we break ourselves at the same time.
We have become mugs in the transfer market...a dupe.
If you are prepared to pay top dollar for players there is nothing worse that getting second best. Real Madrid do not make that mistake. They bought Zidane...we bought Veron. We have Nistelrooy, they bought Ronaldo. We spend our whole summer budget on Ferdinand even though we need another striker and at least another full-back. Ferdinand is a fantastic buy.....but at what price? Like I say, we have become mugs in the marketplace.

 

[ste_grassham]

Originally posted by paulengland:
<strong>so who are Monkey hangers then</strong><hr></blockquote>

hartlepool

 

[Ever hopefull]

Originally posted by buzet44:
<strong>We were and are tactically weak. We are still a one-dimensional team.....4-4-2. We failed in Europe after winning in Barcelona and Ferguson saw this....Veron and Nistelrooy were his answer.
Now we have Ferdinand...all record buys...but sometimes I think our scouting reports come straight off the back page of the Sun and the Mirror.
We may break the bank but we break ourselves at the same time.
We have become mugs in the transfer market...a dupe.
If you are prepared to pay top dollar for players there is nothing worse that getting second best. Real Madrid do not make that mistake. They bought Zidane...we bought Veron. We have Nistelrooy, they bought Ronaldo. We spend our whole summer budget on Ferdinand even though we need another striker and at least another full-back. Ferdinand is a fantastic buy.....but at what price? Like I say, we have become mugs in the marketplace.</strong><hr></blockquote>

The point about Zidane and Veron is a fair one, but i'd rather have Ruud than Ronaldo.
I agree we have become mugs in the transfer market. Once the Plc board loosened the puse strings Sir Alex seems determined to spend every penny to make up for the years he had to battle to get the odd million here and there

 

[zippy]

our biggest mistake was not buying d'canio, cant understand why we backed off the deal just because west ham wanted 4m he would have been very good for at least 2 full seasons, hopefully we can get someone else with similiar flair sometime soon.

makes you appreciate cantona even more.

I have to admit i am a bit disturbed by the money we have been throwing at players in the transfer market, Liverpool have been making some very shrewd buys at a fraction of what we have been paying, maybe we are mugs?.

Another point; didnt edgar davids recently get sold for about 6m? surely we should have put a bid in for him at that price - still a great player.

 

[Ever hopefull]

Originally posted by zippy:
<strong>our biggest mistake was not buying d'canio, cant understand why we backed off the deal just because west ham wanted 4m he would have been very good for at least 2 full seasons, hopefully we can get someone else with similiar flair sometime soon.

makes you appreciate cantona even more.

I have to admit i am a bit disturbed by the money we have been throwing at players in the transfer market, Liverpool have been making some very shrewd buys at a fraction of what we have been paying, maybe we are mugs?.

Another point; didnt edgar davids recently get sold for about 6m? surely we should have put a bid in for him at that price - still a great player.</strong><hr></blockquote>

There was no piont us buying Davids. His game is too similar to Keane's. We didn't need another central midfielder. You can say look at the situation now, but if you could have seen these problems coming. Do me a favour and choose my lottery numbers for me.
I agree on the DiCanio point, he could have done a good job for us.
Liverpool seem to have started doing what we did in the mid nineties. Picking up good players for virtually nothing.
Riise, Dudek, Babbel, Hamman. I don't think the total transfer fees for these players comes to £10million, and there are a few others that could be included in that list.
Why didn't we look at Litmanem, he went back to Ajax for peanuts.

 

[Nistelrooy10]

If we had Ronaldinho playing off of Ruud, J. Cole instead of Veron, and Duff for Giggs/Becks, we would be unstoppable

Anyways, we should have gotten Anelka when he was available. Would have been a good 3rd striker..

 

[darko]

Originally posted by Nistelrooy10:
<strong>If we had Ronaldinho playing off of Ruud, J. Cole instead of Veron, and Duff for Giggs/Becks, we would be unstoppable

Anyways, we should have gotten Anelka when he was available. Would have been a good 3rd striker..</strong><hr></blockquote>

ATM he would be a great first striker!

 

[uranushk1]

I definitely agree that we lack players who can dribble. Look at Arsenal and Pool they have far more player who can do that. Dribbling is the most direct way to reduce the no. of defender in front. Moreover, if one player dribble into the box it can cause panic and attract several defenders crowd to him, thus make some space for other teammates. Now we all rely on passing (and most of our passing has no creativity and imaginative at all), not surprising why we can't beat tight defence.

 

[Argiepoo]

Originally posted by zippy:
<strong>

Face it, we are in trouble.</strong><hr></blockquote>

We've stuck to the core team and playing style that brought us success over the past 10 years. It's time to re-design the team make-up and revamp the playing style. If not, this might be the decade for Arsenal or Liverpool, and a return to the 80's for us.

 

[ryansgirl]

Should have gone for Robbie Keane when it was known he may not have been part of El Tel`s plans at Leeds.

But I would not expect Sir Alex to swallow his pride and he didn`t ....

 

[Livvie]

Originally posted by Nistelrooy10:
<strong>If we had Ronaldinho playing off of Ruud, J. Cole instead of Veron, and Duff for Giggs/Becks, we would be unstoppable

Anyways, we should have gotten Anelka when he was available. Would have been a good 3rd striker..</strong><hr></blockquote>

We spent 90 million pounds to improve a squad that just the season b4 last walked away with the title.

It's not just down to buying players!

A bad run and everyone gets hysterical and the place resembles the stock market on Black Monday.

The teams we have put out recently should have been good enough to acquit themselves well against Bolton, Boro, Sunderland, and WBA, and we should at least have managed a draw at Elland Road.

There is no guarantee whatever that if we'd played the eleven best in the world things would have been any different.

It isn't the players, it's the TEAM. We aren't one.

 

[golden_blunder]

Originally posted by Rod:
<strong>How is Luke Chadwick progressing ? Yeah I know I asked this question last season. At least he can bloody dribble.</strong><hr></blockquote>

dribbling in the toilet is the only thing he can do. that is if he doesnt dribble into the wrong toilet or go off down a blind alleyway somewhere..

 

[uranushk1]

Originally posted by golden_blunder:
<strong>

dribbling in the toilet is the only thing he can do. that is if he doesnt dribble into the wrong toilet or go off down a blind alleyway somewhere..</strong><hr></blockquote>

I'm sorry that he doesn't seem making any progress. He seems very promising when appeared in PL on the first time, but he didn't progress enough in these two years. Somehow I think the problem is down to his body and his strength.

 

[Neil Thomson]

Originally posted by uranushk1:
<strong>

I'm sorry that he doesn't seem making any progress. He seems very promising when appeared in PL on the first time, but he didn't progress enough in these two years. Somehow I think the problem is down to his body and his strength.</strong><hr></blockquote>
He does well in the reserves, and england u21's, but everytime he comes up against physical opposition, he gets knocked off the ball. They should really up his weight training and get him to be more aggressive. He can't rely on his looks alone to scare opponents.

 

[manusteve]

Re: Luke Chadwick.

The bloke is absolutely fecking crap. Ok, if United are regressing as a team, then I guess it's just a cyclical thing. But honestly, players like Chadwick should not be allowed to play. All he does is dribble up to an opponent and either, a) lay the ball square or behind, b)deliver a crap cross, c) run into the defender and fall over. What a fecking clown.

Of the youngsters, there is only one that stands any chance of making it - Michael Stewart (O'Shea I think already has).

You look at the players in the reserves - they are abysmal. The younger teams of United are rubbish too. It's obvious the right players are not coming through - I appreciate how difficult it is to find good youngsters, but United's resources should ensure a couple who do become excellent players.

The other way to get players is to spend. Ok, so Rio cost 29m, so fecking what? If the plc want to progress, then the playing side dictates merchandise sales. Look at all the awful squabbling every time there is a targeted player. Di Canio would have come for 2m more, and he would have done a good job. We so desperately need a shadow striker. Personally, I have been disappointed with Scholes' attempts in that position. He just plays too far forward! A shadow striker does NOT play with back to goal, he positions himself to have the play in front of him.

Finally, why is it that, apart from the obvious transfer targets, United never seem to sign players that become really good? The scouting system must be crap. For example, why was a player like Michael Ballack not identified before Bayern acquired the option to sign him this season? There are players like Bernd Schneider, perfectly good inside-right. I think Escude would be good, except we refused to pay a couple more million more. Yes we should not be held to ransom, but squabbling over the odd million is cheap-skate behaviour.

I know dominating teams are cyclical, but if you have the resources and you don't utilise them, then it's your own fault.

 

[zippy]

Originally posted by manusteve:
<strong>
Of the youngsters, there is only one that stands any chance of making it - Michael Stewart (O'Shea I think already has).

You look at the players in the reserves - they are abysmal. The younger teams of United are rubbish too. </strong><hr></blockquote>

It is disturbing to hear that we only have 1 reserve player that is any good (according to manusteve). We seem to be relying on cash to much - we could be in for a serious fall one day, especially the way the stock market is these days. i hate to think what a few bad seasons would do to us.

I wonder if the same omount of effort that went into scouting during the kanchelskis/sharp/schemical era is still going on today? i have a funny feeling its not. manusteve poses some good questions, why are we not recognizing good players earlier? with ballack being a good example. maybe our scouts have become lazy - maybe they think we can afford to wait until they prove themselves at the highest level first?

well if thats their theory then i dont agree, a good scout should be able to spot a young player that is hungry and has what it takes, and the club should encourage the scouts to pick up this type of player early so that a/ some other big team doesnt beat us to it, and b/ so that we dont have to pay extortionate amounts of money after the fact.

Again, liverpool seem to be doing well without breaking the bank.

ferdinand is class, we have broke transfer records before for defenders and it has paid off, with pallister being the best example, but veron and forlan were well over-priced we could never sell them for what we bought them for right now, surely 4 or 5 players in the 4-10m range would have been a better way to spend 35m?

 

[uranushk1]

Back to the "tactical weakness" topic, soccernet quoted Ole said about our current attack problem:

'But sometimes we try to play too much. We all want to score nice goals but sometimes we have to be more direct - getting on the end of crosses and going back to basics.'

I think he has pointed out part of our current problem (another part being our squad not deep enough). We need to play more directly rather than passing the ball too many times without getting to anywhere.

 

[kemo]

Finally some one gets it. We simply pass TOO much. If we stuck to the fast breaks of 99 when three or four passes usually resulted in shos at gola regularly and our speed was better we ould be invincible.

 

[Tonjo]

Nowadays, teams like to crowd their defence and try to for a quick break to catch United off guard. If United cannot break the crowded defence, why not try shooting whenever the opportunity arises instead of making so many passes that will get them nowhere.

 

[Neil Thomson]

Originally posted by manusteve:
<strong>Re: Luke Chadwick.

The bloke is absolutely fecking crap. Ok, if United are regressing as a team, then I guess it's just a cyclical thing. But honestly, players like Chadwick should not be allowed to play. All he does is dribble up to an opponent and either, a) lay the ball square or behind, b)deliver a crap cross, c) run into the defender and fall over. What a fecking clown.

Of the youngsters, there is only one that stands any chance of making it - Michael Stewart (O'Shea I think already has).

You look at the players in the reserves - they are abysmal. The younger teams of United are rubbish too. It's obvious the right players are not coming through - I appreciate how difficult it is to find good youngsters, but United's resources should ensure a couple who do become excellent players.

The other way to get players is to spend. Ok, so Rio cost 29m, so fecking what? If the plc want to progress, then the playing side dictates merchandise sales. Look at all the awful squabbling every time there is a targeted player. Di Canio would have come for 2m more, and he would have done a good job. We so desperately need a shadow striker. Personally, I have been disappointed with Scholes' attempts in that position. He just plays too far forward! A shadow striker does NOT play with back to goal, he positions himself to have the play in front of him.

Finally, why is it that, apart from the obvious transfer targets, United never seem to sign players that become really good? The scouting system must be crap. For example, why was a player like Michael Ballack not identified before Bayern acquired the option to sign him this season? There are players like Bernd Schneider, perfectly good inside-right. I think Escude would be good, except we refused to pay a couple more million more. Yes we should not be held to ransom, but squabbling over the odd million is cheap-skate behaviour.

I know dominating teams are cyclical, but if you have the resources and you don't utilise them, then it's your own fault.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You are far too harsh. Timm, Webber, Richardson, Fletcher, Tate, Gomez, Tierney, Davis, are not crap. To varying degrees they'll all be Division 1 or PL, or United standard. Out of those I'd say Timm, Davis, and Fletcher stand the best chance of being United standard, and Gomez might be a bit of an unknown quantity to us, but he's clearly highly rated. Also Luke Steele may well become our goalie in the future.

 

[zippy]

Originally posted by uranushk1:
<strong>Back to the "tactical weakness" topic, soccernet quoted Ole said about our current attack problem:

'But sometimes we try to play too much. We all want to score nice goals but sometimes we have to be more direct - getting on the end of crosses and going back to basics.'

I think he has pointed out part of our current problem (another part being our squad not deep enough). We need to play more directly rather than passing the ball too many times without getting to anywhere.</strong><hr></blockquote>


I dont think thats right, in many ways we are being to direct by pumping a long ball up from the half way line. Theres nothing wrong with keeping the ball and passing a lot, the key is you have to pass at speed and get the ball into the danger areas. our problem currently is that all our passing is done on the perimeter of the danger area and as soon as we try to go further we lose the ball.

A good example of what needs to happen was in the Bolton game; it only happend once in the whole game but there was a point when veron played a decent one-two with giggs into the box, it opened up for him and he was able to shoot, the shot was poor but the main thing is a chance was created by creative passing into the danger area. do more of that and good things will happen.

A tactic we could use is to play beckham in the middle just behind the forwards, this would allow him to shoot from just outside the box, he has such a decent shot from that range that our opposition would have to start trying to mark him, this would free up some space for our forwards and wingers. Although chadwick might not be the best he does have good wheels and hunger, at this point we would be better playing him on the right wing with becks in the middle, this is a more attacking formation that would stretch the oppostion defense. We are an attacking team - if teams want to come and defend for 90 against us then we should be happy to oblige with all out attack.