United's academy has fought back against City in the battle for talent

It should be but it isn't and in today's world at elite level it probably won't be until the culture changes

Sad fact is that elite level managers/coaches can't afford the risk if they want to keep their job, obviously there's a few exceptions here and there but by and large, in the last few years academy players making it at the club they start with are not very common
 
Red in STL said:
It should be but it isn't and in today's world at elite level it probably won't be until the culture changes

Sad fact is that elite level managers/coaches can't afford the risk if they want to keep their job, obviously there's a few exceptions here and there but by and large, in the last few years academy players making it at the club they start with are not very common
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I'm very confused as to what relevance this has to the article.
 
TwoSheds said:
I'm very confused as to what relevance this has to the article.
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Just that it's not making much difference whether we have a strong academy or not. Though I think this is more of a manager(and technical /sporting director issue). Look at how willing Barcelona are with Xavi to put in young players, even with the ferocious crowd and board demands on the team to do well. We've got an underperforming midfield without legs or press-resistance- why not at least try Gore from the bench, or experiment with our best u-21s up at the top end of the field rather than going through the same subs time after time, or in terms of the full-back positions, playing players out of position who don't offer natural overlapping ability. Players likely to be hungrier and more receptive than the present established names too.

LVG had some significant issues in terms of style and even signings (however much we can lay at Woodward's feet there too).... but at least in emphasising a possession-game And promoting malleable youngsters (many of whom were probably lower quality compared to the likes of Gore or even Hansen Aaroen, but it was what he had to work with), he was more progressive than ETH. Maybe we'll at least see Mainoo stake his case more regularly, since TH seems to like him...


 
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Baxquux said:
Just that it's not making much difference whether we have a strong academy or not. Though I think this is more of a manager(and technical /sporting director issue). Look at how willing Barcelona are with Xavi to put in young players, even with the ferocious crowd and board demands on the team to do well. We've got an underperforming midfield without legs or press-resistance- why not at least try Gore from the bench, or experiment with our best u-21s up at the top end of the field rather than going through the same subs time after time, or in terms of the full-back positions, playing players out of position who don't offer natural overlapping ability. Players likely to be hungrier and more receptive than the present established names too.

LVG had some significant issues in terms of style and even signings (however much we can lay at Woodward's feet there too).... but at least in emphasising a possession-game And promoting malleable youngsters (many of whom were probably lower quality compared to the likes of Gore or even Hansen Aaroen, but it was what he had to work with), he was more progressive than ETH. Maybe we'll at least see Mainoo stake his case more regularly, since TH seems to like him...


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This season we've played Rashford, McTominay, Mejbri, Mainoo (soon), Amad (soon), Shaw, Dalot, Hojlund, Martial, all of them identified and signed as teenagers or younger, and I think most or possibly all of them also getting their first playing time as teenagers too. I don't get this idea that youth isn't important. It's also been important to City for balancing their FFP books even if only Foden has really had a fair crack of the whip in their first team. Same goes for Chelsea although they've had a few more make it to their first team.

If anything, when you're a club that can't put together a proper first team squad, identifying and developing good youngsters is even more important.
 
Read an article years ago that described how both clubs were going for players as young as 8. That City were the destination of choice because they offered better payments for education during and even after being at the club if players failed to make it. Think even Sheffield Utd have lost young players to them because they offered better education prospects.

I think it was on the BBC.
 
Oranges038 said:
Read an article years ago that described how both clubs were going for players as young as 8. That City were the destination of choice because they offered better payments for education during and even after being at the club if players failed to make it. Think even Sheffield Utd have lost young players to them because they offered better education prospects.

I think it was on the BBC.
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One of the ITKs a few years ago said some North West clubs were so fed up of City's antics they nearly stopped playing games against them.
 
TwoSheds said:
This season we've played Rashford, McTominay, Mejbri, Mainoo (soon), Amad (soon), Shaw, Dalot, Hojlund, Martial, all of them identified and signed as teenagers or younger, and I think most or possibly all of them also getting their first playing time as teenagers too. I don't get this idea that youth isn't important. It's also been important to City for balancing their FFP books even if only Foden has really had a fair crack of the whip in their first team. Same goes for Chelsea although they've had a few more make it to their first team.

If anything, when you're a club that can't put together a proper first team squad, identifying and developing good youngsters is even more important.
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Rico Lewis?
 
AltiUn said:
One of the ITKs a few years ago said some North West clubs were so fed up of City's antics they nearly stopped playing games against them.
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Aye, iirc Liverpool received an academy ban for similar tactics, some kid from Stoke. But it only came up because the player or parents complained when they didn't pay the school fees. I'm sure there's a lot more underhand tactics being used out there by big clubs that we'll never be aware of.

Edit. Found the articles.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/longform_manchester_cold_war


https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/35054310
 
TwoSheds said:
This season we've played Rashford, McTominay, Mejbri, Mainoo (soon), Amad (soon), Shaw, Dalot, Hojlund, Martial, all of them identified and signed as teenagers or younger, and I think most or possibly all of them also getting their first playing time as teenagers too. I don't get this idea that youth isn't important. It's also been important to City for balancing their FFP books even if only Foden has really had a fair crack of the whip in their first team. Same goes for Chelsea although they've had a few more make it to their first team.

If anything, when you're a club that can't put together a proper first team squad, identifying and developing good youngsters is even more important.
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It's definitely important in principle, which I don't think what I wrote argued against, but I think in our case the pipeline isn't especially efficient ( setting aside any disputes about quality). The club could have saved itself a lot of money by at least cultivating more squad members to do jobs and using what we have in order to eke out wins whilst ETH develops his patterns of play (though I'm on the fence about how committed/capable he is of doing so when it comes to United)..

McTominay I think should have been sold a while back, but does represent one minor success there as someone who was capable of coming in and doing a certain type of job as a young player for a couple of seasons. Hannibval has certain good qualities- I can see him as a Herrera style combative, fairly quick and technically decent midfield option - but again, hasn't been played enough when it was clear we lacked someone with that profile in midfield to stop ourselves being over-run. Hojlund I like, and in time (and in a more stable/success driven set-up) will do well, but it's a bit of a failing that we haven't developed a similar CF ourselves and have to spend 60+ to bring someone in...

Rashford was promoted by LVG in that spate of u-21s i mentioned and has overall done well, although his first-team place should be under more pressure or we should have perhaps sold him when stock was up, given the issues that seem to have emerged around motivation/consistency from one season to the next. . Likewise the other players you mentioned are largely LVG promotions and/or, more importantly, purchases. from other clubs at relatively high-cost, as opposed to brought in from our youth-set up or at least from u-21/3s.
 
prateik said:
Hope we land the next Mainoo.
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Hope we play the current one (without staking all our hopes on him), but, yeah., there always seem to be a couple of physical, quick but technical midfielders, around 17-18, emerging every season who 'larger' clubs can potentially take a gamble on. There ae a few more (though more expensive) around 20-22 age range in France, Germany etc we can go in for, though it's difficult to find a 'complete' midfielder with high-end attributes across the board, unless you're Madrid.
 
Oranges038 said:
Read an article years ago that described how both clubs were going for players as young as 8. That City were the destination of choice because they offered better payments for education during and even after being at the club if players failed to make it. Think even Sheffield Utd have lost young players to them because they offered better education prospects.

I think it was on the BBC.
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City send their players to a private(for US folk)/public(UK) school with tuition fees of around £10,000 to £15,000 a year with the promise of continuing to send them there for the rest of their education even if they are released. You're look at upwards of a £100,000 education. It is no surprise they are often the club of choice and why smaller clubs even with famed academies like Sheffield United can't compete. That is without even getting into the more illegal stuff like gifting houses to some kid's parents. Of course a 10 year old's parents are going to choose the option of hundreds of thousands of pounds.
 
Gentleman Jim said:
Rico Lewis?
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I guess. He doesn't look all that amazing to me but perhaps he'll keep his squad place. Either way though, if you sell him you're probably getting £20m, it's not to be sniffed at.
 
Baxquux said:
It's definitely important in principle, which I don't think what I wrote argued against, but I think in our case the pipeline isn't especially efficient ( setting aside any disputes about quality). The club could have saved itself a lot of money by at least cultivating more squad members to do jobs and using what we have in order to eke out wins whilst ETH develops his patterns of play (though I'm on the fence about how committed/capable he is of doing so when it comes to United)..

McTominay I think should have been sold a while back, but does represent one minor success there as someone who was capable of coming in and doing a certain type of job as a young player for a couple of seasons. Hannibval has certain good qualities- I can see him as a Herrera style combative, fairly quick and technically decent midfield option - but again, hasn't been played enough when it was clear we lacked someone with that profile in midfield to stop ourselves being over-run. Hojlund I like, and in time (and in a more stable/success driven set-up) will do well, but it's a bit of a failing that we haven't developed a similar CF ourselves and have to spend 60+ to bring someone in...

Rashford was promoted by LVG in that spate of u-21s i mentioned and has overall done well, although his first-team place should be under more pressure or we should have perhaps sold him when stock was up, given the issues that seem to have emerged around motivation/consistency from one season to the next. . Likewise the other players you mentioned are largely LVG promotions and/or, more importantly, purchases. from other clubs at relatively high-cost, as opposed to brought in from our youth-set up or at least from u-21/3s.
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It seems like you think it's easy to develop world class players. I forgot Pellistri and Gore as well by the way.

But even if you only say Rashford, McTominay, Mejbri and Mainoo are the "proper" academy players that are genuine first teamers, there's not many clubs with so many in their first team. I'm not counting Heaton really even though I think he's a good player.
 
TwoSheds said:
It seems like you think it's easy to develop world class players. I forgot Pellistri and Gore as well by the way.

But even if you only say Rashford, McTominay, Mejbri and Mainoo are the "proper" academy players that are genuine first teamers, there's not many clubs with so many in their first team. I'm not counting Heaton really even though I think he's a good player.
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It's less about 'world-class', than just decent- standard PL players with attributes we need, which I think we do (potentially) have on the books, but just don't bring through as well as we should. The only manager that properly committed to it was Van Gaal, for all his faults. We obviously do have youth products in the squad - it's just the set-up is a mixture of unnecessary inefficiency in moving the aged-out/never-were players out and bringing young players in -beyond some 1st team training and sitting unused on the bench every 3-4 weeks -, along with managerial conservatism/myopia.

City have a higher first-team standard but still brought through Foden and Lews and Palmer (until they sold him for decent money), as well as managing the rest of their U21s to a level where they could be sold (ala Lavia) for decent money without even playing beyond the League Cup. My point is just that there are problems with equipping enough players for the final transition to senior top-flight football, then in moving the ones who are good enough into the squad and, most significantly, in giving them game time when it's clear that we need something that the current (not especially well recruited) 1st team, especially in CM, don't have. ..
 
limerickcitykid said:
City send their players to a private(for US folk)/public(UK) school with tuition fees of around £10,000 to £15,000 a year with the promise of continuing to send them there for the rest of their education even if they are released. You're look at upwards of a £100,000 education. It is no surprise they are often the club of choice and why smaller clubs even with famed academies like Sheffield United can't compete. That is without even getting into the more illegal stuff like gifting houses to some kid's parents. Of course a 10 year old's parents are going to choose the option of hundreds of thousands of pounds.
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Aye, from a financial and educational point of view, you wouldn't have to think long and hard about it and it's very predictable easy to see why so many people say yes.
 
Baxquux said:
It's less about 'world-class', than just decent- standard PL players with attributes we need, which I think we do (potentially) have on the books, but just don't bring through as well as we should. The only manager that properly committed to it was Van Gaal, for all his faults. We obviously do have youth products in the squad - it's just the set-up is a mixture of unnecessary inefficiency in moving the aged-out/never-were players out and bringing young players in -beyond some 1st team training and sitting unused on the bench every 3-4 weeks -, along with managerial conservatism/myopia.

City have a higher first-team standard but still brought through Foden and Lews and Palmer (until they sold him for decent money), as well as managing the rest of their U21s to a level where they could be sold (ala Lavia) for decent money without even playing beyond the League Cup. My point is just that there are problems with equipping enough players for the final transition to senior top-flight football, then in moving the ones who are good enough into the squad and, most significantly, in giving them game time when it's clear that we need something that the current (not especially well recruited) 1st team, especially in CM, don't have. ..
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Van Gaal just threw shit at the wall and saw what stuck, it wasn't some genius strategy. Blackett and McNair were never going to be near first team standard and meanwhile he flogged the likes of Evans and Rafael who were, albeit ideally they needed improving on.
 
TwoSheds said:
Van Gaal just threw shit at the wall and saw what stuck, it wasn't some genius strategy. Blackett and McNair were never going to be near first team standard and meanwhile he flogged the likes of Evans and Rafael who were, albeit ideally they needed improving on.
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Well, I agree that he was severely flawed and we were right to move him out (albeit not choosing his successor particularly well).

Disagree slightly though that it was just 'throwing at the wall'- he definitely had a managerial philosophy and a plan of how to develop the team. It's just his coaching style was utterly ponderous rather than combining improved possession (which he did) with quicker transitions and quicker interplay/movement. Bringing players from the u21s in en masse ala Ajax in the 90s, coaching them closely in what he wanted, and seeing who worked out on the pitch was fine. Maybe he kept one or two around too long during the season, but I still think it was more to do with the 'style'/philosophy -along with larger issues with quality of the u21s - than about being too random....
 
Baxquux said:
Well, I agree that he was severely flawed and we were right to move him out (albeit not choosing his successor particularly well).

Disagree slightly though that it was just 'throwing at the wall'- he definitely had a managerial philosophy and a plan of how to develop the team. It's just his coaching style was utterly ponderous rather than combining improved possession (which he did) with quicker transitions and quicker interplay/movement. Bringing players from the u21s in en masse ala Ajax in the 90s, coaching them closely in what he wanted, and seeing who worked out on the pitch was fine. Maybe he kept one or two around too long during the season, but I still think it was more to do with the 'style'/philosophy -along with larger issues with quality of the u21s - than about being too random....
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Bringing in crap players that other coaches at the club could tell you weren't up to it is just arrogance because you know they won't talk back to you unlike the senior players. I like Van Gaal but he did a very poor job for us overall.
 
TwoSheds said:
I guess. He doesn't look all that amazing to me but perhaps he'll keep his squad place. Either way though, if you sell him you're probably getting £20m, it's not to be sniffed at.
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Think you're underrating him a lot. He's not the most impressive technically, but his intelligence and ability to get involved in moves is very good. Think they'll both be full England internationals
 
Ekeke said:
Think you're underrating him a lot. He's not the most impressive technically, but his intelligence and ability to get involved in moves is very good. Think they'll both be full England internationals
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Looks fine technically to me, from what I've seen, as well as good footballing-intelligence (which you cant really play for Pep without, I guess). I'd take him as a full-back/DM utility player playing 35 games a season, compared to what we have.
 
Baxquux said:
Looks fine technically to me, from what I've seen, as well as good footballing-intelligence (which you cant really play for Pep without, I guess). I'd take him as a full-back/DM utility player playing 35 games a season, compared to what we have.
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I wasnt saying he doesnt have good technique, I'm saying he doesnt stand out for it like some of the previous City youngsters coming through like Foden and Palmer. He's got fine technique for a midfielder/fullback and the intelligence to be effective from either role.
 
TwoSheds said:
I'm very confused as to what relevance this has to the article.
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You can identify young talent all you want, unless they play it's moot, playing a young player is a risk, no matter how good they might be eventually, coaches don't have that long, lose a few games and they're already in danger of losing their jobs
 
Red in STL said:
You can identify young talent all you want, unless they play it's moot, playing a young player is a risk, no matter how good they might be eventually, coaches don't have that long, lose a few games and they're already in danger of losing their jobs
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Playing a player you sign is a risk as well, and the likes of Arsenal, United and even Chelsea have loads of players from their academy in the first team. Identifying better ones will therefore help them to be better teams.
 
TwoSheds said:
Playing a player you sign is a risk as well, and the likes of Arsenal, United and even Chelsea have loads of players from their academy in the first team. Identifying better ones will therefore help them to be better teams.
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United and Chelsea coaches have paid for it with their jobs to a certain extent and Arsenal, as good as they are, aren't actually winning things yet
 
Red in STL said:
United and Chelsea coaches have paid for it with their jobs to a certain extent and Arsenal, as good as they are, aren't actually winning things yet
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But they can't just buy players of the quality of Saka in every position because everyone wants them, there's only a handful of teams that can afford that.
 
limerickcitykid said:
City send their players to a private(for US folk)/public(UK) school with tuition fees of around £10,000 to £15,000 a year with the promise of continuing to send them there for the rest of their education even if they are released. You're look at upwards of a £100,000 education. It is no surprise they are often the club of choice and why smaller clubs even with famed academies like Sheffield United can't compete. That is without even getting into the more illegal stuff like gifting houses to some kid's parents. Of course a 10 year old's parents are going to choose the option of hundreds of thousands of pounds.
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There was talk around where I lived (South Wales) where City signed a local youngster who was given education as an incentive along with a property and a job for his father. I don't know if the second part is true, but they've moved to Manchester.
 
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