LuckyScout78
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Side post to main thread and topic : United team building towards a proactive and dominating 433 football.
Topic :United team building towards proactive and dominating 433 football. Then Dani Olmo is a must buy. Post on page 2 | RedCafe.net
This side the topic, but still same thread : United team building. Ten Hag origin plan/A, but ended up with plan B. Back to origin plan A in the future?
I just want this post to be on the start. But it still relate to the “United team building topic “. Which include how the manager intention, his plans and decisions. All from the beginning and start of Ten Hag’s regime.
I think when United first hired and appointed Ten Hag. His first and origin plan, plan A was to build a United team that was going to play proactive attacking football. Not like plan B which he ended up with United.
And what and why did I think and believe that proactive and attacking football was Ten Hag origin and plan A?
He was planning to play proactive 433 Ajax and Dutch attacking football. Similar with Pep with City and Arteta with Arsenal 433.
There first sign of his intention to apply his origin plan A was. Ten Hag and Manchester United tried really hard to get Frenkie De Jong from Barcelona. But they couldn’t.
And what would De Jong add to United team and made Ten Hag plan A reality?
Frenkie De Jong was known for dropping deep to receive the ball and start most of team build up/attack. As a so call deep lying central midfield playmaker.
A nr.6 creative and dictating cm playmaker. Like this in a 433 total proactive football :
RCM/nr.8 – CM/nr.6 – LCM/nr.8 = RCM – De Jong – LCM. The middle one of the CM trio.
Later in the that same transfer window. If the rumour was right. That United and Ten Hag was trying to sign Adrien Rabiot too.
Then Ten Hag intention and plan A could ended up like this, a cm trio of :
Bruno – De Jong – Rabiot
Rabiot is and was best known for left foot box to box cm player. Operate on the left side of the deep lying cm playmaker. Then Bruno would ended up on the right side of De Jong.
And on paper. I think and believe that cm trio could really well too.
But like we know what were happened?
Ten Hag and United didn’t get both of De Jong and Rabiot. And as we walked towards that summer transfer window closing .
United and Ten Hag ending up getting Casemiro from Real Madrid. Who at that time I would rated him not at his peak = over his peak in his career.
And as we know Christian Eriksen on free, as the creative cm player. Not as the 6, but plan for Eriksen was nr.8
So with buying Casemiro and Eriksen. Here I think and believe Ten Hag has went from his origin plan/A, when he first signed for United and what United want from him.
From plan A proactive attacking football --- to plan B = Counter attacking and transition football. But to not misunderstand this with counter attacking football with Casemiro as DM/nr.6. This will and shall only apply against top teams like City, Liverpool and Arsenal. 3 teams that have play and gel together. Having a solid and strong structure. Will dominate against United and Ten Hag. And will push Ten Hag team to get deeper and play counter attack.
Nothing wrong with counter attack. But during that season. Without Eriksen on the pitch. Only with Casemiro + Fred/McTom. United do struggled to open up team with tight defend.
Because like above. Casemiro was known and his ability on the pitch was as a cm “destroyer” , break up and counter opponent attack and teams. Where he had 2 really creative, offensive and really good with the ball in Toni Kroos and Luke “Mozart “ Modric.
And with United, but without Eriksen and with Fred/McTom as his cm partners. You just can and demand Casemiro to become a top cm playmaker?
Why United with Ten Hag like Ole were struggling to open up tight defend and team who were parking the bus. Ole’s cm duo was Fred/McTom.
And Ten Hag did to apply 433 with Bruno – Casemiro – Eriksen in some matches in the start. It didn’t worked out. So he went to and applied 4231 as the main formation.
With Cas as nr.6 and Eriksen as the creative nr.8 playmaker. And Bruno in the free nr.10 CAM role behind the striker.
From that on. 433 and proacting football totally disappear from Ten Hag’s mind. Ten Hag was on the transition and plan B counter attack football track.
And more indications and clear signs of that were :
Ten Hag and United sign Mason Mount and Amrabat. 2 players that I would categorize as transition football and counter attacking player.
We all know that Amrabat was not know as a cm playmaker. Amrabat is a defensive cm player. Who was good with breaking up opponent teams attack. Special he was doing that role and job really well for Marokko. As theirs DM 6.
And Mason Mount was knowing for his really good high press and ball winning ability too.
So with those 2 signings it was clearly of plan to apply transition fast attacking football.
And if I wasn’t wrong. Ten Hag did said and mention that : “ United shall be the fastest transition team in the world “. He was clearly deep on his plan B and that counter attack track and road.
But the worst scenario for Ten Hag and co were. He didn’t get players to apply his plan A. And to play and make the plan B working really really too. Ten Hag didn’t have a solid and strong backline too. In others words Ten Hag didn’t had top players to get the most out of counter attack and transition football.
Signs of that were. Ten Hag tried to sell Harry Maguire. Because at that time he didn’t think Maguire suit his high back line, because of the high pressing football. So with Maguire case and Varane got injury here and there in the beginning of the season and Ten Hag only CB signing was Jonny Evans. A decent CB and long long over his peak time.
And with the injury of Kobbie Mainoo and Casemiro injury in the beginning of the season. And Mason Mount hard to find his best role in that cm partnership and later Mount got injury.
All those factors lead to that United and Ten Hag transition counter attack and high pressing were so easily to break down, run passed and trough. And opponent teams easily created and scoring goals.
So Ten Hag was on the a no man’s land. Went from his origin plan A and proactive football. Then the plan B didn’t help him and team much neither. Ten Hag didn’t had a rock solid back line with quick and solid CBs.
Because of playing with high pressing football with a high backline. Your team and backline need really quick CBs too. Because if you met and come up against really quick CFs and attacker. Then your team is really vulnerable for trough and long passes.
And those factors leads to United early champion league exit and poor league results. Beside many mistakes that lead to poor results.
+ So from now on and in the future. Ten Hag and his staff didn’t know much about Kobbie Mainoo when they were taking over the jobs. Do Ten Hag and united have a deep lying cm playmaker in Kobbie Mainoo?
Does Mainoo has what it require and demand to become a top dominate CM playmaker. To help United overcome City, Arsenal and Liverpool? To win the premier league?
First we have to analyze short what kind of CM player is Mainoo?
For me in short words description of Mainoo :
+ Mainoo is not a pure and top cm destroyer.
+ Mainoo is better and best with the ball then without the ball
+ Mainoo is more of a creative and offensive ball playing cm like Clarence Seedorf, rather than a Makelee or Kante of top ballwinning CM.
And from what we have seen of Mainoo. In not even full season with the first team and on the highest level. We do see and observed that Mainoo is a ball playing CM player. Composure on the ball, but could sometime speed the ball tempo and passes.
So with more times to get use the intensity, speed and the physical of the highest level of football.
I think Mainoo has what it require and demand as a top and dominate and deep lying CM playmaker nr.6. I think United and Ten Hag shall give Mainoo as a try. As the main cm playmaker, nr.6.
So with the addition of Mainoo. Who I think and believe wasn’t it Ten Hag plan when he took over United. Reason why he went for Casemiro as the nr.6 after chasing the De Jong.
I think and believe in the closest future and matches. Ten Hag and United shall go back to his plan A and origin plan. A proactive dominating football playing on the front foot. And of course special against teams United shall dominate. And maybe with a more defensive set up and line up, still against teams like Liverpool, City and Arsenal.
And rest of the season line up could be like this. And probably United best XI, in a proactive football, 433:
Onana + Dalot/Bissaka – Varane/Maguire – Martinez/Varane – Shaw/Dalot +
Garnacho – Bruno – Mainoo – Mount – Rashford + Højlund.
And a more counter attack set/line up, 451 :
Garnacho – Bruno – Casemiro – Mainoo – Rashford + Højlund. = here you move Casemiro in the as DM, cm destroyer to break up opponent attack and shield his back line. And like with Madrid he will have 2 really creative and cm players that a really good on the ball. Not like Modric and Kroos yet. But maybe over time. This more counter set up cm trio Bruno – Casemiro – Mainoo can be good.
But the first set up with a more attacking minded trio in Bruno – Mainoo – Mount. I believe will deliver better attacking result than the defensive set up.
So with Mainoo and back to origin plan A for Ten Hag and United. I recommend and advise Ten Hag shall drop the plan B, the transition high pressing set up and approach.
Reasons why? Because I think and believe the new owner, Ten Hag and United fans want to see a more attacking minded and dominate United team. A team that are playing in the front foot.
And because transition football mean = your team don’t have the ball, transition mean your team have to chase the ball, pressing high and win the ball up there. Then transit it to attacking and scoring goals. It is the opposite of proactive and dominating football. Football a la City, Arsenal and Liverpool are playing. And Tottenham with Ange too.
So again. With Mainoo. I think and believe it is meant to be. United and Ten Hag shall go back on the plan A. Ten Hag first intention and plan. Because I don’t think keep going in the transition track, road and plan is a good idea. It will goes against what Ten Hag really really want too.
I know Ten Hag is under and feel big pressure to deliver result, short time. So he will go for more safer and lesser risk than the 433 and Ajax dominate and proactive football.
And of course it more easily to score goals. If your team sit back and counter, than against parking bus and tight defend and team. Special against top teams and teams with a high back line. Open up and give space for United to counter attack.
But like above. Ten Hag is at no man’s land. Right now he hasn’t the player to get the most out of counter attack and transition football too. When his teams, so easily give up chances. Easily to play against. And of course at the moment I am writing this. With Martinez back fully fit and Shaw too. It might be a bit different and harder to break trough.
+ Then in the next summer transfer window. United new structure, new CEO and DOF have to find top players that suit proactive 433 football. Attacking players that are top when it come to dribbling and with high creative and end product. To let United having the ball in the team more when needed too.
United new structure. DOF. Answorth or whoever. Shall has the ball to say and recommend Ten Hag shall go away from plan B and transition football. If they will keep Ten Hag.
Ten Hag is just so deep in the transition football road and path now. The new United DOF and structure has to disagree, guide and lead him back to his first plan A. By getting the right players for him
Because after Casemiro, Amrabat, Mount. 3 factors that are showing he is on transition and counter attack football. It’s maybe good to have Mount in the line up against top teams.
But against team United shall just out beat and dominate the ball possession and scoring more goals then theirs opponent teams.
Like in my early post about Dani Olmo . I think and believe with Olmo on the left side of Mainoo will be more dangerous when it come to attack, special against tight defenders. Like this line up :
Garnacho – Bruno – Mainoo – Olmo – Rashford + Højlund
Olmo at this moment I rate him above when it come to creating chances and scoring ability. It is not a chance that Mount is as good as Olmo when it come to it.
Like Barca prime:
Xavi – Busquets – Iniesta. Olmo is more Iniesta than Mount. To get the most out of proactive 433. Because the LCM & RCM = are both nr.8 and attacking players. Theirs best abilities are with the ball, than without. Mount is a more ball winner and high pressing nr.8
Then a new offensive left wing back a la Grimaldo from Leverkusen can and will get United closer to dominating proactive 433 football.
Olmo, Grimaldo and Shea Lacey from the academy as new RW option to the first teams. Would be mine options to getting closer to become a really strong and dominate proactive 433 side.
All of Olmo, Grimaldo and Shea Lacey are really really good and precise with the ball on their feets = they really consistent and precise with the ball.
And all 3 has really high ability of creating chances and scoring goals. What this kind of football require and demand. On the top level and against the top teams of course. They have to best with the ball. Attacking players that are really really hard to take the ball from.
Like the prime Barcelona and Spain. Not the most physical team, but it was really really hard to take the ball from them. That is the bar and how a top dominating proactive team were doing.
Later we had the peak City, Liverpool and now Arsenal starting to become a really strong proactive team too.
So those are mine thought about Ten first intention and plan. I might be wrong. But reading of Ten Hag defensive and transition signings. I think he and United shall go best to plan A. Special, still against teams United shall dominate.
Like Mourinho on his prime and peak. Mourinho was parking the bus against top teams, rise the “hard to beat “ level to the top, this factor. But against team Mourinho Chelsea or Mardrid shall run over and dominate. Mourinho would line up a more attacking minded set up. A more proactive line up.
Again. Nothing wrong with counter attack and transition football. But for both ways and style/plan. Your teams get to have top players too. To get the most out of proactive and attacking football and set up. Both plan and set up require and demand top qualities of players/weapons.
Have a nice day
Topic :United team building towards proactive and dominating 433 football. Then Dani Olmo is a must buy. Post on page 2 | RedCafe.net
This side the topic, but still same thread : United team building. Ten Hag origin plan/A, but ended up with plan B. Back to origin plan A in the future?
I just want this post to be on the start. But it still relate to the “United team building topic “. Which include how the manager intention, his plans and decisions. All from the beginning and start of Ten Hag’s regime.
I think when United first hired and appointed Ten Hag. His first and origin plan, plan A was to build a United team that was going to play proactive attacking football. Not like plan B which he ended up with United.
And what and why did I think and believe that proactive and attacking football was Ten Hag origin and plan A?
He was planning to play proactive 433 Ajax and Dutch attacking football. Similar with Pep with City and Arteta with Arsenal 433.
There first sign of his intention to apply his origin plan A was. Ten Hag and Manchester United tried really hard to get Frenkie De Jong from Barcelona. But they couldn’t.
And what would De Jong add to United team and made Ten Hag plan A reality?
Frenkie De Jong was known for dropping deep to receive the ball and start most of team build up/attack. As a so call deep lying central midfield playmaker.
A nr.6 creative and dictating cm playmaker. Like this in a 433 total proactive football :
RCM/nr.8 – CM/nr.6 – LCM/nr.8 = RCM – De Jong – LCM. The middle one of the CM trio.
Later in the that same transfer window. If the rumour was right. That United and Ten Hag was trying to sign Adrien Rabiot too.
Then Ten Hag intention and plan A could ended up like this, a cm trio of :
Bruno – De Jong – Rabiot
Rabiot is and was best known for left foot box to box cm player. Operate on the left side of the deep lying cm playmaker. Then Bruno would ended up on the right side of De Jong.
And on paper. I think and believe that cm trio could really well too.
But like we know what were happened?
Ten Hag and United didn’t get both of De Jong and Rabiot. And as we walked towards that summer transfer window closing .
United and Ten Hag ending up getting Casemiro from Real Madrid. Who at that time I would rated him not at his peak = over his peak in his career.
And as we know Christian Eriksen on free, as the creative cm player. Not as the 6, but plan for Eriksen was nr.8
So with buying Casemiro and Eriksen. Here I think and believe Ten Hag has went from his origin plan/A, when he first signed for United and what United want from him.
From plan A proactive attacking football --- to plan B = Counter attacking and transition football. But to not misunderstand this with counter attacking football with Casemiro as DM/nr.6. This will and shall only apply against top teams like City, Liverpool and Arsenal. 3 teams that have play and gel together. Having a solid and strong structure. Will dominate against United and Ten Hag. And will push Ten Hag team to get deeper and play counter attack.
Nothing wrong with counter attack. But during that season. Without Eriksen on the pitch. Only with Casemiro + Fred/McTom. United do struggled to open up team with tight defend.
Because like above. Casemiro was known and his ability on the pitch was as a cm “destroyer” , break up and counter opponent attack and teams. Where he had 2 really creative, offensive and really good with the ball in Toni Kroos and Luke “Mozart “ Modric.
And with United, but without Eriksen and with Fred/McTom as his cm partners. You just can and demand Casemiro to become a top cm playmaker?
Why United with Ten Hag like Ole were struggling to open up tight defend and team who were parking the bus. Ole’s cm duo was Fred/McTom.
And Ten Hag did to apply 433 with Bruno – Casemiro – Eriksen in some matches in the start. It didn’t worked out. So he went to and applied 4231 as the main formation.
With Cas as nr.6 and Eriksen as the creative nr.8 playmaker. And Bruno in the free nr.10 CAM role behind the striker.
From that on. 433 and proacting football totally disappear from Ten Hag’s mind. Ten Hag was on the transition and plan B counter attack football track.
And more indications and clear signs of that were :
Ten Hag and United sign Mason Mount and Amrabat. 2 players that I would categorize as transition football and counter attacking player.
We all know that Amrabat was not know as a cm playmaker. Amrabat is a defensive cm player. Who was good with breaking up opponent teams attack. Special he was doing that role and job really well for Marokko. As theirs DM 6.
And Mason Mount was knowing for his really good high press and ball winning ability too.
So with those 2 signings it was clearly of plan to apply transition fast attacking football.
And if I wasn’t wrong. Ten Hag did said and mention that : “ United shall be the fastest transition team in the world “. He was clearly deep on his plan B and that counter attack track and road.
But the worst scenario for Ten Hag and co were. He didn’t get players to apply his plan A. And to play and make the plan B working really really too. Ten Hag didn’t have a solid and strong backline too. In others words Ten Hag didn’t had top players to get the most out of counter attack and transition football.
Signs of that were. Ten Hag tried to sell Harry Maguire. Because at that time he didn’t think Maguire suit his high back line, because of the high pressing football. So with Maguire case and Varane got injury here and there in the beginning of the season and Ten Hag only CB signing was Jonny Evans. A decent CB and long long over his peak time.
And with the injury of Kobbie Mainoo and Casemiro injury in the beginning of the season. And Mason Mount hard to find his best role in that cm partnership and later Mount got injury.
All those factors lead to that United and Ten Hag transition counter attack and high pressing were so easily to break down, run passed and trough. And opponent teams easily created and scoring goals.
So Ten Hag was on the a no man’s land. Went from his origin plan A and proactive football. Then the plan B didn’t help him and team much neither. Ten Hag didn’t had a rock solid back line with quick and solid CBs.
Because of playing with high pressing football with a high backline. Your team and backline need really quick CBs too. Because if you met and come up against really quick CFs and attacker. Then your team is really vulnerable for trough and long passes.
And those factors leads to United early champion league exit and poor league results. Beside many mistakes that lead to poor results.
+ So from now on and in the future. Ten Hag and his staff didn’t know much about Kobbie Mainoo when they were taking over the jobs. Do Ten Hag and united have a deep lying cm playmaker in Kobbie Mainoo?
Does Mainoo has what it require and demand to become a top dominate CM playmaker. To help United overcome City, Arsenal and Liverpool? To win the premier league?
First we have to analyze short what kind of CM player is Mainoo?
For me in short words description of Mainoo :
+ Mainoo is not a pure and top cm destroyer.
+ Mainoo is better and best with the ball then without the ball
+ Mainoo is more of a creative and offensive ball playing cm like Clarence Seedorf, rather than a Makelee or Kante of top ballwinning CM.
And from what we have seen of Mainoo. In not even full season with the first team and on the highest level. We do see and observed that Mainoo is a ball playing CM player. Composure on the ball, but could sometime speed the ball tempo and passes.
So with more times to get use the intensity, speed and the physical of the highest level of football.
I think Mainoo has what it require and demand as a top and dominate and deep lying CM playmaker nr.6. I think United and Ten Hag shall give Mainoo as a try. As the main cm playmaker, nr.6.
So with the addition of Mainoo. Who I think and believe wasn’t it Ten Hag plan when he took over United. Reason why he went for Casemiro as the nr.6 after chasing the De Jong.
I think and believe in the closest future and matches. Ten Hag and United shall go back to his plan A and origin plan. A proactive dominating football playing on the front foot. And of course special against teams United shall dominate. And maybe with a more defensive set up and line up, still against teams like Liverpool, City and Arsenal.
And rest of the season line up could be like this. And probably United best XI, in a proactive football, 433:
Onana + Dalot/Bissaka – Varane/Maguire – Martinez/Varane – Shaw/Dalot +
Garnacho – Bruno – Mainoo – Mount – Rashford + Højlund.
And a more counter attack set/line up, 451 :
Garnacho – Bruno – Casemiro – Mainoo – Rashford + Højlund. = here you move Casemiro in the as DM, cm destroyer to break up opponent attack and shield his back line. And like with Madrid he will have 2 really creative and cm players that a really good on the ball. Not like Modric and Kroos yet. But maybe over time. This more counter set up cm trio Bruno – Casemiro – Mainoo can be good.
But the first set up with a more attacking minded trio in Bruno – Mainoo – Mount. I believe will deliver better attacking result than the defensive set up.
So with Mainoo and back to origin plan A for Ten Hag and United. I recommend and advise Ten Hag shall drop the plan B, the transition high pressing set up and approach.
Reasons why? Because I think and believe the new owner, Ten Hag and United fans want to see a more attacking minded and dominate United team. A team that are playing in the front foot.
And because transition football mean = your team don’t have the ball, transition mean your team have to chase the ball, pressing high and win the ball up there. Then transit it to attacking and scoring goals. It is the opposite of proactive and dominating football. Football a la City, Arsenal and Liverpool are playing. And Tottenham with Ange too.
So again. With Mainoo. I think and believe it is meant to be. United and Ten Hag shall go back on the plan A. Ten Hag first intention and plan. Because I don’t think keep going in the transition track, road and plan is a good idea. It will goes against what Ten Hag really really want too.
I know Ten Hag is under and feel big pressure to deliver result, short time. So he will go for more safer and lesser risk than the 433 and Ajax dominate and proactive football.
And of course it more easily to score goals. If your team sit back and counter, than against parking bus and tight defend and team. Special against top teams and teams with a high back line. Open up and give space for United to counter attack.
But like above. Ten Hag is at no man’s land. Right now he hasn’t the player to get the most out of counter attack and transition football too. When his teams, so easily give up chances. Easily to play against. And of course at the moment I am writing this. With Martinez back fully fit and Shaw too. It might be a bit different and harder to break trough.
+ Then in the next summer transfer window. United new structure, new CEO and DOF have to find top players that suit proactive 433 football. Attacking players that are top when it come to dribbling and with high creative and end product. To let United having the ball in the team more when needed too.
United new structure. DOF. Answorth or whoever. Shall has the ball to say and recommend Ten Hag shall go away from plan B and transition football. If they will keep Ten Hag.
Ten Hag is just so deep in the transition football road and path now. The new United DOF and structure has to disagree, guide and lead him back to his first plan A. By getting the right players for him
Because after Casemiro, Amrabat, Mount. 3 factors that are showing he is on transition and counter attack football. It’s maybe good to have Mount in the line up against top teams.
But against team United shall just out beat and dominate the ball possession and scoring more goals then theirs opponent teams.
Like in my early post about Dani Olmo . I think and believe with Olmo on the left side of Mainoo will be more dangerous when it come to attack, special against tight defenders. Like this line up :
Garnacho – Bruno – Mainoo – Olmo – Rashford + Højlund
Olmo at this moment I rate him above when it come to creating chances and scoring ability. It is not a chance that Mount is as good as Olmo when it come to it.
Like Barca prime:
Xavi – Busquets – Iniesta. Olmo is more Iniesta than Mount. To get the most out of proactive 433. Because the LCM & RCM = are both nr.8 and attacking players. Theirs best abilities are with the ball, than without. Mount is a more ball winner and high pressing nr.8
Then a new offensive left wing back a la Grimaldo from Leverkusen can and will get United closer to dominating proactive 433 football.
Olmo, Grimaldo and Shea Lacey from the academy as new RW option to the first teams. Would be mine options to getting closer to become a really strong and dominate proactive 433 side.
All of Olmo, Grimaldo and Shea Lacey are really really good and precise with the ball on their feets = they really consistent and precise with the ball.
And all 3 has really high ability of creating chances and scoring goals. What this kind of football require and demand. On the top level and against the top teams of course. They have to best with the ball. Attacking players that are really really hard to take the ball from.
Like the prime Barcelona and Spain. Not the most physical team, but it was really really hard to take the ball from them. That is the bar and how a top dominating proactive team were doing.
Later we had the peak City, Liverpool and now Arsenal starting to become a really strong proactive team too.
So those are mine thought about Ten first intention and plan. I might be wrong. But reading of Ten Hag defensive and transition signings. I think he and United shall go best to plan A. Special, still against teams United shall dominate.
Like Mourinho on his prime and peak. Mourinho was parking the bus against top teams, rise the “hard to beat “ level to the top, this factor. But against team Mourinho Chelsea or Mardrid shall run over and dominate. Mourinho would line up a more attacking minded set up. A more proactive line up.
Again. Nothing wrong with counter attack and transition football. But for both ways and style/plan. Your teams get to have top players too. To get the most out of proactive and attacking football and set up. Both plan and set up require and demand top qualities of players/weapons.
Have a nice day