United DNA and the Winning Recipe

[Rossa]

Watching United vs Wolves, it was clear as day that Wolves were stronger and faster than the United players all over the pitch. They ran through us like a hot knife through butter, and every foot race went in their favour. Most physical duels also went in their favour, and that meant they were able to counter us time and time again. Wolves may be a physical team, but surely not that impressive?

What happened to United being arguably the fastest team in the league with wingers that would always threaten because of their speed? Fast fullbacks that very few if any wingers would be able to outpace. Our centre backs are probably our comparatively speaking fastest pairing. So we are no longer a fast team. Rashford is fast, but not electric off the mark. Garnacho is fast, but not absolutely rapid, and Antony is OK as is Sancho. Our midfield is only average at best, and our fullbacks are nothing special.

We are not a technical team. Look at the passing of City and Arsenal and even Brighton, and they are streets ahead of us. That applies to build up from the back to attacking play in and around the opposition box. Thus, we are not a particularly technical team - average at best in the league I would say.

We are not a physical team with any great physical presence. In our team, I would argue only Varane and Casemiro are great in the air. Martinez, despite being quite small is solid in the air. McTominay is OK, but nothing more. Other than that, we are not even average, but in fact below average. We are not strong in a tackle, and we lack muscle all over the pitch. Bulking up is definitely not the answer, but there's a lack of toughness. Scholes was diminutive, but he was tough as nails, same for Evra.

We lack intensity and or stamina. In the last seasons we have often been outrunned by the opposition. In the last 10-15 minutes where we would dominate teams under Ferguson, we look exhausted. The high pressing that some teams are able to do just doesn't work for this United side, and hasn't worked for a long time.

ETH claims we are going to be the best transitional team in the world. That may well be, but with wingers that constantly feck up every counter attacking move, how are we going to develop into such a team? Our best transitional plays came under Ferguson then Mourinho and Solskjær; what I am seeing in this side is a clear lack of pace and pattern on the counter.

So what is the style and DNA of this United side? The winning recipe.

 

[dubplate warrior]

The United DNA is a term that's been banded about post Fergie to justify the shit signings we make, and shit players we keep due to their physicality and not their technical ability.

If we buy players with good technique who are comfortable with the ball at their feet, we wouldn't constantly need to buy new players.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Watching United vs Wolves, it was clear as day that Wolves were stronger and faster than the United players all over the pitch. They ran through us like a hot knife through butter, and every foot race went in their favour. Most physical duels also went in their favour, and that meant they were able to counter us time and time again. Wolves may be a physical team, but surely not that impressive?

What happened to United being arguably the fastest team in the league with wingers that would always threaten because of their speed? Fast fullbacks that very few if any wingers would be able to outpace. Our centre backs are probably our comparatively speaking fastest pairing. So we are no longer a fast team. Rashford is fast, but not electric off the mark. Garnacho is fast, but not absolutely rapid, and Antony is OK as is Sancho. Our midfield is only average at best, and our fullbacks are nothing special.

We are not a technical team. Look at the passing of City and Arsenal and even Brighton, and they are streets ahead of us. That applies to build up from the back to attacking play in and around the opposition box. Thus, we are not a particularly technical team - average at best in the league I would say.

We are not a physical team with any great physical presence. In our team, I would argue only Varane and Casemiro are great in the air. Martinez, despite being quite small is solid in the air. McTominay is OK, but nothing more. Other than that, we are not even average, but in fact below average. We are not strong in a tackle, and we lack muscle all over the pitch. Bulking up is definitely not the answer, but there's a lack of toughness. Scholes was diminutive, but he was tough as nails, same for Evra.

We lack intensity and or stamina. In the last seasons we have often been outrunned by the opposition. In the last 10-15 minutes where we would dominate teams under Ferguson, we look exhausted. The high pressing that some teams are able to do just doesn't work for this United side, and hasn't worked for a long time.

ETH claims we are going to be the best transitional team in the world. That may well be, but with wingers that constantly feck up every counter attacking move, how are we going to develop into such a team? Our best transitional plays came under Ferguson then Mourinho and Solskjær; what I am seeing in this side is a clear lack of pace and pattern on the counter.

So what is the style and DNA of this United side? The winning recipe.

To sum up. We’re slower, less physical, less technically competent, worse in the air, less intense and have worse cardio than most of the teams we play against.

So how the hell did we finish ahead of all but two of those teams last season?

 

[Rossa]

To sum up. We’re slower, less physical, less technically competent, worse in the air, less intense and have worse cardio than most of the teams we play against.

So how the hell did we finish ahead of all but two of those teams last season?

City are, apart from Walker and Haaland, a fairly slow team. They are definitely not physically strong, but they are absolutely brilliant at what they do best. It's the sum of all parts. Messi in his prime was not as strong, as fast, able to shoot as hard, not as two footed, great in the air as prime Ronaldo, but many still argue he was a better player because of how brilliant he was at what he did.

What are United's brilliant play?

Edit: last season was an anomaly. Liverpool were terrible. Chelsea, who knows what happened to them. The struggle for top four is going to be intense this year. What is going to set United apart as a title challenging team?

 

[Rossa]

The United DNA is a term that's been banded about post Fergie to justify the shit signings we make, and shit players we keep due to their physicality and not their technical ability.

If we buy players with good technique who are comfortable with the ball at their feet, we wouldn't constantly need to buy new players.

I kind of agree, but where are these physical players? It's not even something we excel at.

 

[dubplate warrior]

I kind of agree, but where are these physical players? It's not even something we excel at.

Maguire, Dan James, McTominay, Lukaku, AWB are the ones which come to mind.

 

[cyberman]

Yep, we’re shit. Close it all down.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

City are, apart from Walker and Haaland, a fairly slow team. They are definitely not physically strong, but they are absolutely brilliant at what they do best. It's the sum of all parts. Messi in his prime was not as strong, as fast, able to shoot as hard, not as two footed, great in the air as prime Ronaldo, but many still argue he was a better player because of how brilliant he was at what he did.

What are United's brilliant play?

Edit: last season was an anomaly. Liverpool were terrible. Chelsea, who knows what happened to them. The struggle for top four is going to be intense this year. What is going to set United apart as a title challenging team?

Almost every season has one or two big teams underperforming. Often us! You can’t claim it’s anomaly when it happens that often.

I’m genuinely curious though. You’ve gone deep on how much worse we are than all these other teams at basically every element of football. What do you think we did better than them last season to accumulate more points than they did? Because the answer to that question will answer the one you just asked me.

 

[Bertie Wooster]

The OP obviously sounds way too negative a description for a team who finished 3rd in the PL and reached both domestic cup finals, winning one.

But I do get the general tone of it in terms of our post-Fergie years. After all, it was our first trophy in 6 years and, points wise, we've never come particularly close to looking like winning the league in that decade.

And, yeah, I have felt a general sense of a lack of team identity and balance / chemistry in our midfield and attack throughout most of those years. Whereas we mostly come up against teams who seem to be organised, and you have a general idea of their game plan as a unit and most likely way of scoring - we often look more like a bunch of (talented) individuals who, attacking wise, rely mostly on instinctive moments of individual ability to score.

The money we've spent, and talented individuals we've signed, helps us to still finish top 6 and win the occasional trophy over the decade. But that's been a huge underachievement for our club expectations. And I do think a real lack of identity and chemistry on the pitch - us never really being able to say what our main strength or style is - has been a huge reason for that. I just feel we've often gone out on the pitch with far less of a game plan, balance or chemistry than most opponents.

Though I'm sensing a change of that with ETH. Ole also tried, but just didn't have the ability / aura to achieve it. ETH at least helped instil a sense of togetherness last season. I was hoping this summer he'd really help with the balance / chemistry of us building up and attacking as a unit. But the combination of FFP and the (non) club sale issues seem to have hindered that. Though I'm eager to see how we look when the likes of Onana and Mount have settled in more and Hojlund returns from injury.

 

[Munkehboi]

I remember thinking tbe same the last time we actually won the EPL. Lost our opening game to Everton and I thought we were well of the pace. Luckily we had RVP that season. We are genrally slow starters, expect to us to liven up in a week or two.

 

[Rossa]

Almost every season has one or two big teams underperforming. Often us! You can’t claim it’s anomaly when it happens that often.

I’m genuinely curious though. You’ve gone deep on how much worse we are than all these other teams at basically every element of football. What do you think we did better than them last season to accumulate more points than they did? Because the answer to that question will answer the one you just asked me.

Honestly, I'm not sure. But do you honestly disagree?
We're not a fast team anymore.
We're not a physical team.
We're not a technical team
We're not a particularly hard working team.

However, we are just about average and slightly above average in several of those categories. We have a pretty solid defense; apart from some terrible displays last season, we were mostly solid and performed quite well there. So if I were to say one area of the pitch we are top four without question, it's the quality of our defense, and still there are question marks over fitness and our RB situation. All teams have questions marks, however.

The reason I'm asking is that I really fail to see what our biggest strengths are. Do you?

 

[Rossa]

Maguire, Dan James, McTominay, Lukaku, AWB are the ones which come to mind.

Maguire... wasn't he bought because of his passing ability? In absolutey every metric I can think of, bar weight, Smalling would outperform him, so that was a downgrade. McTominay is our own, but although he is supposedly this great athletic player, he keeps losing every physical duel he finds himself in. AWB isn't brilliant physically either - decent pace, nothing special, but he seriously seems to lack stamina/fitness. Lukaku, I'll give you that and Dan James for his pure speed.

 

[Rossa]

The OP obviously sounds way too negative a description for a team who finished 3rd in the PL and reached both domestic cup finals, winning one.

But I do get the general tone of it in terms of our post-Fergie years. After all, it was our first trophy in 6 years and, points wise, we've never come particularly close to looking like winning the league in that decade.

And, yeah, I have felt a general sense of a lack of team identity and balance / chemistry in our midfield and attack throughout most of those years. Whereas we mostly come up against teams who seem to be organised, and you have a general idea of their game plan as a unit and most likely way of scoring - we often look more like a bunch of (talented) individuals who, attacking wise, rely mostly on instinctive moments of individual ability to score.

The money we've spent, and talented individuals we've signed, helps us to still finish top 6 and win the occasional trophy over the decade. But that's been a huge underachievement for our club expectations. And I do think a real lack of identity and chemistry on the pitch - us never really being able to say what our main strength or style is - has been a huge reason for that. I just feel we've often gone out on the pitch with far less of a game plan, balance or chemistry than most opponents.

Though I'm sensing a change of that with ETH. Ole also tried, but just didn't have the ability / aura to achieve it. ETH at least helped instil a sense of togetherness last season. I was hoping this summer he'd really help with the balance / chemistry of us building up and attacking as a unit. But the combination of FFP and the (non) club sale issues seem to have hindered that. Though I'm eager to see how we look when the likes of Onana and Mount have settled in more and Hojlund returns from injury.

Better written than me, and I think I agree with this. We don't have bad players, but I'm not sure they always gel together all that well. That could be a result of us having so many different managers that all wanted different styles. All the way from Moyes who wanted something, LVG who wanted statues that could pass the ball, to Mourinho who wanted physicality and speed, to Solskjær who also wanted fast paced counter attacking football and did well for one season then fell off a cliff.

There's a lack of chemistry, an identifiable game plan and this one particular part of play that really sets us apart. Even lesser teams have that DNA now. Brighton are probably the best club in the league playing out from the back, Pep's words. Wolves are definitely better than us physically - crap in the final third though. We used to be the best counter attacking team in the league alongside some other great bits of play. Where are we now?

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

We have two quick players in the squad. This is the issue.

 

[Bertie Wooster]

Better written than me, and I think I agree with this. We don't have bad players, but I'm not sure they always gel together all that well. That could be a result of us having so many different managers that all wanted different styles. All the way from Moyes who wanted something, LVG who wanted statues that could pass the ball, to Mourinho who wanted physicality and speed, to Solskjær who also wanted fast paced counter attacking football and did well for one season then fell off a cliff.

There's a lack of chemistry, an identifiable game plan and this one particular part of play that really sets us apart. Even lesser teams have that DNA now. Brighton are probably the best club in the league playing out from the back, Pep's words. Wolves are definitely better than us physically - crap in the final third though. We used to be the best counter attacking team in the league alongside some other great bits of play. Where are we now?

Thanks.

Yeah, I do think there's been a real lack of chemistry, structure and identifiable game plan over the post-Fergie years so far.

Leading me to watching the games nowadays not with the trust and confidence of old of knowing how we'd play and the fight we'd show, etc. But more just with hope that we'll somehow get over the line, produce an individual moment of brilliance, etc.

I just haven't seen that sense of team identity, balance and chemistry of old - and that I still see in some other teams. Last season felt better though, and ETH is the first manager I really feel hopeful about in terms of bringing it back. This summer should have been a big opportunity to really build on that and take another big step forward - but he's not had it easy with the FFP and takeover issues while rival clubs have been spending bigger and strengthening even more.

 

[RedDevilCanuck]

We are still a counter attacking side as our 2 best attackers can only thrive in transitions.

What's being forgotten is that our back 5 is immense in defending.

There are players that can do well in a possession system but until we get an intelligent and technical midfielder to start attacks we will continue to be a transition team.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Honestly, I'm not sure. But do you honestly disagree?
We're not a fast team anymore.
We're not a physical team.
We're not a technical team
We're not a particularly hard working team.

However, we are just about average and slightly above average in several of those categories. We have a pretty solid defense; apart from some terrible displays last season, we were mostly solid and performed quite well there. So if I were to say one area of the pitch we are top four without question, it's the quality of our defense, and still there are question marks over fitness and our RB situation. All teams have questions marks, however.

The reason I'm asking is that I really fail to see what our biggest strengths are. Do you?

To be honest, I'm struggling with this a bit myself. So my question to you was genuine. I'm not sure of the answer. I guess our (relative) success was because we're quite well rounded? We don't rely on being faster than other teams but we do have some very fast players (Rashford, Shaw, Antony, Dalot) We're not the most technical team but we do have players with great technique (Bruno's inventive passing, Sancho's trickery, Antony's ball carrying skills, Martinez is very skilful for a CB) We're not the strongest but we have strong players (Casemiro is extremely strong, I read somewhere that he broke records at Carrington for squat/deadlift) and we're not the fittest but we do have some very fit players (Fred's cardio was off the charts, hopefully Mount can match him) But above all, I'd say the biggest influence last season was having a very tactically astute manager. Which hasn't been the case for a long time and will hopefully help us build a team that's more then the sum of its charts.

 

[AdamColeBebe]

City are, apart from Walker and Haaland, a fairly slow team. They are definitely not physically strong, but they are absolutely brilliant at what they do best. It's the sum of all parts. Messi in his prime was not as strong, as fast, able to shoot as hard, not as two footed, great in the air as prime Ronaldo, but many still argue he was a better player because of how brilliant he was at what he did.

What are United's brilliant play?

Edit: last season was an anomaly. Liverpool were terrible. Chelsea, who knows what happened to them. The struggle for top four is going to be intense this year. What is going to set United apart as a title challenging team?

I hear this every year we have finished in the top 4 since Fergie left. It was an "anomaly". No, we were better than the other teams over 38 games.