Ultimate Club Legends Draft - R1 - Edgar vs Gio

[GodShaveTheQueen]

----------------------EDGAR----------------------------------------------------GIO---------------------------


EDGAR TACTICS -

Formation: 4-3-1-2

Balanced play. Solid Defence. Junior will be more defensive B2B support (which he excelled in) and Nedved will be more expansive in his role. Set up is geared to get the best of Pele. Both Sosa and Salas are lethal at scoring themselves but also excel at bullying defenders and dragging them out of position. Overall it's a dynamic attack that any defence will find hard to handle.

Players and achievements for the chosen club:

Thomas N'Kono (Club Bolivar)
Liga de Fútbol Profesional Boliviano: 1996, 1997

Andreas Brehme (Kaiserlautern)
Bundesliga: 1997–98 | 2. Bundesliga: 1996–97 | DFB-Pokal: 1995–96 | DFL-Supercup: runner-up 1996
UEFA European Championship Team of the Tournament: 1984 | kicker Bundesliga Team of the Season: 1985–86

Gheorge Popescu (Galaltasaray)
1.Lig: 1997–98, 1998–99, 1999–2000 | Turkish Cup: 1998–99, 1999–2000 | UEFA Cup: 1999–2000 | UEFA Super Cup: 2000

Pietro Vierchowod (Sampodria)
Serie A: 1990–91 | Coppa Italia: 1984–85, 1987–88, 1988–89, 1993–94 | European Cup Winners' Cup: 1989–90 | Supercoppa Italiana: 1991
Serie A Team of The Year: 1983, 1985, 1988, 1990, 1991 | Guerin d'Oro: 1983 | Premio Nazionale Carriera Esemplare "Gaetano Scirea": 1995

Denis Irwin (Oldham)
Football League Cup runner-up: 1989–90
PFA Team of the Year: 1989–90 Second Division

Matthias Sammer (Dynamo Dresden)
DDR-Oberliga: 1988–89, 1989–90 | FDGB-Pokal: 1989–90
He made the kicker Bundesliga Team of the Season: 1990–91, immediately in the year he left Dynamo and moved into Stuttgart, despite him having to serve in military preceding years. Came into his role as CDM in Dynamo which was hugely influential for his later peak libero role.

Leo Junior (Torino)
Mitropa Cup: 1991 | Serie A runner-up: 1984–85
Serie A Team of The Year: 1985 | Serie A player of the year: 1985

Pavel Nedved (Sparta Prague)
Czechoslovak First League: 1992–93 | Czech Republic Football League: 1993–94, 1994–95 | Czech Cup: 1995–96
Key player for the club and the NT helping them to Euro 1996 final and winning the MotM vs France on the way.

Pele (Santos)
Best player in the world!

Ruben Sosa (Club Nacional)
Uruguayan Primera División: 1998, 2000, 2001
Uruguayan Primera División Top scorer: 1998 | Copa Libertadores Top scorer: 1999

Marcelo Salas (Universidad de Chile)
Primera División de Chile: 1994, 1995
Copa Chile Top scorer: 1994 | America's Ideal Team: 1996
Won more bunch of trophies next year at Argentina including FotY at a way better league!

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GIO TACTICS -

CARLOS ROA - aged 25-28
Someone whose legacy would be much bigger had he not assumed the world was about to end and took a year off at the height of his career. That was only days after he had been voted the best goalkeeper in Europe during the 98/99 season at Mallorca, who he joined from Lanus in Argentina. It was at Lanus where he established himself as the top Argentine goalkeeper, winning the Copa COMNEBOL in 1996.

LAURENT BLANC - aged 18-25
It was at Montpellier where Blanc transformed from attacking midfielder to defence, making such an impact that he went on to win French Player of the Year in 1990. As club captain he led Montpellier to only their second every trophy, with Blanc scoring in an extra-time Coupe de France win over RC Paris. He built on this with an exceptional 90/91 campaign, scoring 14 goals in Ligue Un alone, despite playing at the back. In Europe they turned over recent European Cup winners PSV and Steau Bucharest, keeping 4 clean sheets in 4 games, before falling to Ferguson's United.

LUCIO - aged 22-26
All-action defensive monster who helped drive Leverkusen to the brink of an unfathomable treble in 2001/02. Lucio scored in the Champions League Final against Real Madrid. A couple of weeks' later he led Brazil's defence to the 2002 World Cup. Kicker gave him a World-Class rating for his performances in 2001 and 2002. Selected in the European Sports Media Team of the Season in 2001/02 and an ever-present in the Bundesliga Team of the Season from 2000 through to 2006.

DAN PETRESCU - aged 23-25
Petrescu spent 3 seasons in Serie A, the first two with Foggia and the final with Genoa. At Foggia he played well in both seasons, enjoying an average media rating of 6.20 during 91/92 and up to 6.25 in 92/93, where he was ranked the 3rd best right-back in the league.

JUAN PABLO SORIN - aged 23-28
Spent his prime years at Cruzeiro in Brazil. Scored a solid 18 goals in 121 games as he swashbuckled up and down the left flank.

GABI - aged 24-28
Started his career at Atletico, moved out to Zaragoza, and came back as the finished article having transformed from a wide midfielder into a midfield-controlling holder. His final season at Zaragoza was remarkable - assuming the captaincy, assigned to penalties and scoring 11 goals. To help evidence his level at the time, here are the media-rated midfielders of La Liga in 2010/11 - at a time when the league was its strongest and it was overflowing with midfield quality:

1 - Andres Iniesta - 6.74
2 - Gabi - 6.69
3 - Xabi Prieto - 6.52
4 - Xavi Hernandez - 6.48

Masterful at locking down a midfield, Gabi was specifically chosen because the way he is ingrained in a short-passing give-and-go style.

ANDREAS MOLLER - aged 23-25
Andy enjoyed the highest scoring season of his career during his second spell at Eintracht Frankfurt with his overall record just shy of a goal every two games. With Moller netting 19 goals, Frankfurt came 4th in 1990/91, and were two points away from the title in 1991/92. From there he moved to Juventus, where paired with Baggio ahead, he enjoyed probably the best season of his career in winning the UEFA Cup. Back in Frankfurt with a front two led by Yeboah, Moller mostly played as a roaming 8 in a 4-4-2, and here his quick, nimble and busy style should dovetail with Messi's.

RIVELLINO - aged 19-29
Long career with Corinthians. Was in the COMNEBOL All-Star Team of 1973 when he was also awarded the bronze ball for South American Footballer of the Year. Will be deployed in the inside-left channel which should marry his creative game with his natural left-sidedness. .

LIONEL MESSI - aged 17-34
778 games for Barcelona. 672 goals. 269 assists. 7 Ballon D'Or.

OLEG BLOKHIN - aged 17-34
Won 19 titles with Kyiv, including 8 league titles and 3 European trophies. Secured the Ballon D'Or in 1975, thrice the Eastern European Footballer of the Season, and 9 times the Ukraine Footballer of the Year.

ZIBI BONIEK - aged 19-26
Such was Boniek's impact on the Widzew side, he was recently made an honorary citizen of Lodz. They won their first two league championships under his leadership, before the moved to Juventus in the summer of 1982. That year he came 3rd in the Ballon D'Or, won his 2nd Polish Footballer of the Year award, and won the Eastern European Footballer of the Season Award.


TACTICS

Set up in a 4-3-3 with Messi as the centre-piece. The attack and flanks are full of work rate, energy and movement. In the front three, Messi has mobile, pacy and gifted options either side. Overlapping down the flanks will be Sorin and Petrescu: both natural overlappers, both in their prime, and both capable of doing the box-to-box work. They will create space for Blokhin and Boniek to cut in and roam to cause all sorts of confusion in the opposition defence, with Messi pulling the strings from the hole.

Midfield tries to blend technical quality with the short passing give-and-go game that no doubt gets the best out of Messi. There were other options, but I felt Gabi blends that style with his own forensic command of the midfield. Ahead of him are Moller and Rivellino, both of whom offered plenty of work rate, but both technically and mentally should be content to support Messi. In 1970 Rivellino delivered a masterclass in adapting his game to co-exist with a plethora of great attackers. Meanwhile, Moller's own Kicker profile includes the telling line: "Playing in central midfield, Möller possessed strategic qualities, too, but didn’t feel at home in the role of a playmaker who showed others the way." Compatability is therefore the name of the game.

Defensively it will be primarily about stopping Pele. I believe we can cut much of the supply with the intensity of the press ahead. But at the back Lucio has the physicality and strength to challenge for the first ball, while Blanc will sweep, cover, and lock out the threats in behind. In style it should resemble the Blanc/Desailly partnership, with Gabi hovering Deschamps-style ahead. And behind them Roa is the best keeper on the park.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

@Gio @Edgar Allan Pillow

 

[harms]

Amazing attacking unit around Messi but I'm really not sold on that Möller - Rivelino - Gabi midfield. The German seems like such an odd fit, at his best he was almost a supporting striker and he's way too vertical for this set up.

I feel like Pelé is in a better position to win the game here. Plus, Sammer on Messi is a decent match up even though it's not yet the peak libero version of the former... but he'll provide some resistance and he should be comfortable enough to follow him around the pitch. Yep, feels wrong to vote against that gem of a front three but I think I'm going with Edgar here.

 

[Gio]

Amazing attacking unit around Messi but I'm really not sold on that Möller - Rivelino - Gabi midfield. The German seems like such an odd fit, at his best he was almost a supporting striker and he's way too vertical for this set up.

I feel like Pelé is in a better position to win the game here. Plus, Sammer on Messi is a decent match up even though it's not yet the peak libero version of the former... but he'll provide some resistance and he should be comfortable enough to follow him around the pitch. Yep, feels wrong to vote against that gem of a front three but I think I'm going with Edgar here.

Respectfully disagree on Moller. Granted he could play as a support striker, but he also played all the way back to CM and everything inbetween. Played his best ever season IMO behind Baggio ahead who style-wise is fairly similar to Messi. That was in a 4-1-2-1-2 for Juventus, but he played as the 8 in a 4-4-2 for Frankfurt behind Yeboah and one other - of most relevance here - in a 3-5-2 for Dortmund (usually as the 10), but also in a 3-4-3 again as a B2B CM. For West Germany at Euro 96 it was Eilts holding while Moller and Hassler buzzed around as 8s. The point being he performed to a high level in various different roles not dissimilar to what he's doing here.

My take on his Kicker profile in bold below

One of the Bundesliga’s most lightfooted offensive midfielders (fits the Barca profile), a high-tempo dribbler of a certain elegance and a very fast acceleration who didn’t lose speed with the ball at his feet (could apply to various Pep types who unlock space) and who was known to score wonderful goals after his explosive solos. Playing in central midfield, Möller possessed strategic qualities, too, but didn’t feel at home in the role of a playmaker who showed others the way. (fine because he can defer to Rivelino and Messi) Not a hard character at all, Möller would easily get weepy when he was hit by fouls. (sounds like Barca) Unfortunately prone to diving (yes definitely Barca), Möller’s club career slightly outweighed his international career.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I think Moller's known more for his offensive contributions than his B2B or defensive work. Here we not just have Gabi vs Pele, but also a Serie A Player of the Year peak Leo Junior running that midfield. I just don't feel yours has the work rate or defensive ability to control this game.

On the flip side, Sammer and Popescu are stylistically good fits against Rivelino and Messi and Brehme and even the young Irwin are solid against the attack they face.

This game will be won by Pele and I really don't see anything close to stopping him.

 

[Gio]

Would be good to see the ages for Edgar's team, but I would have concerns about these four as they are a long away from peak IMO:

Thomas N'Kono - aged 38-41. He was great in the 70s and 80s. But this spell in Bolivia is at the fag-end of his career from 1994 to 1997. He was a Cameroon regular from 1975 to 1990. Played a single friendly after that. Won a few awards, mostly in the early 1980s. Bear in mind he is up against an attack where everyone is in their prime with perhaps the greatest finisher of all time through the middle.

Denis Irwin - aged 20-24. Not a criticism of the player whatsoever as he grew like a fine wine at Old Trafford. But a reality check on his standing in the game from 1985 to 1990. Irwin played for Oldham who were entirely in the second tier of English football. He did not play for the Republic of Ireland until after his spell at Oldham. For the national team he was considered behind Chris Morris, Chris Hughton and John Anderson who were chosen for the Euro 88 and Italia' 90 squads. Some of you will be going "who?!" I'm sure a peak Blokhin would cause those players all sorts of problems.

Marcelo Salas - aged 17-20 - wouldn't push this too far as I think Salas played well from a young age, but it's still a teenager up against a defence of seasoned players in their mid-20s, all winning awards and titles in major leagues.

Ruben Sosa - aged 31-34 - had a good time at Nacional in the late 90s. Again wouldn't push too far here, other than to highlight his super peak was clearly late 80s and early 90s. He joined Nacional in 1997. He was no longer a Uruguay international by 1995, and scored a solitary goal for the national team after 1993. In his final two seasons in Europe, before moving back to Uruguay, he scored a whopping 3 goals.

That is four players who are well off their prime.

I think we can also note that Popescu (aged 31-35 - after he won 6 Romanian PotY awards aged 22-29, but none at Galatasaray), Nedved (promising, but not the tour de force he became) and Sammer (early 20s Dresden version) are bit off too.

 

[Enigma_87]

Such a strange game, Gio has a bit of a gung ho approach here with two very attacking full backs, attacking center back in Lucio (considering it's his Bayer stint), two attacking mids in Rivellino and Moller and a complimentary attacking trio.

Edgar setup seems a lot more suited to the task and if all players were at their peak I'd probably go Edgar.

The thing that is stopping me though is that as Gio pointed out many of those players are outside their peaks and especially N'Kono and Irwin is a bit of a eyepain

 

[2mufc0]

On paper looks like Pele will run riot here, but i think Gio's players are more closer to their peak/best form, while several of Edgar's players are picked from periods where they didn't do much or unknown for their respective clubs.

Whilst it's impossible in this draft to pick peaks for all players, but a pick like Irwin for example seems to be one based on his name post career rather than what he did at Oldham (who were playing in the second division during that period).

Not against picking players out of their club peaks but some evidence needs to be shown of their achievements at these clubs.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

while several of Edgar's players are picked from periods where they didn't do much or unknown for their respective clubs.

Not against picking players out of their club peaks but some evidence needs to be shown of their achievements at these clubs.

Gio pointed out many of those players are outside their peaks and especially N'Kono and Irwin is a bit of a eyepain

Certainly not true at all. Their achievements at their clubs is listed in the OP. Let me make my case before you decide.

N'Kono - Was a key part of the team that won two league titles and a major contributor to the team that made a run all the way to QG in Copa Libertadores. Very well regarded in Bolivia. It is not uncommon for GK's to play longer than outfield players. Every single article out there about his stint there has positive things to say and none even mention him having slowed down or being a liability or anywhere close to it.

Denis Irwin - There really is no peak for a plyer like Irwin. His strength was just consistency, solidity and stability...all traits he well demonstrated at Oldham. Made the PFA Team of the Season there too. Reports state Fergie scouted him for well over a year and watched over 20 games and was impressed leading to us signing him. The fact that the slotted in as the primary fullback for United/PL the very next year, speaks volumes about how solid he was at Oldham. You can frequently spot him in all-time Oldham XI lists too.

Salas - Nicknamed Matador, he was already crowd favourite. Top scorer at the club for 1994 and 1995. Integral part of the team ran all the way to QF in 1996 Copa Libertadores and scored in the QF match vs River too. 41 goals in 46 matches in 1994!

Sosa -Again, another fan favourite and part of 3 league title wins.

In total, he played 208 matches with the tricolor, from his debut against Rampla in the 1997 Apertura Tournament to his farewell against Táchira in the 2004 Copa Libertadores, with one extra match: although he was no longer part of the club's roster, he was on the field the day the first works on the Gran Parque Central were inaugurated, on March 9, 2005.

Of his goals, perhaps the most memorable was the free kick in the Clausura 98 classic, a spectacular left-footed shot that led the tricolor to the title of that tournament and consequently of the Uruguayan title, since they had already won the Apertura. “Even the barrier turned around to see it,” he commented years later.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I think Gio's doing a good job at distracting from the main event:

As good as a player Moller was, he is a absolute misfit for the role here. Even Gio's own write up talk about how attacking he was. From what I've watched him earlier (Skizzo picked him in earlier draft) he was a #10/SS who occasionally dropped deeper. Gabi will get no support defensively from his midfield.

Take a look at the peak battles here:

- Messi vs Sammer. Sammer is a stylistic match vs Messi. There's no "containing" peak Messi, but if any DM could prevent him from running riot, it will be Sammer (in his Dynamo CDM role).
- Blokhin vs Irwin. I'd call this a draw. Irwin does what Irwin does. Young as he may be, he's was as solid in Oldham as he was at United.

vs

- Pele vs Gabi. This will be a bloodbath.
- Junior vs ???. Letting a Serie A player of the Year run free!

 

[2mufc0]

Certainly not true at all. Their achievements at their clubs is listed in the OP. Let me make my case before you decide.

N'Kono - Was a key part of the team that won two league titles and a major contributor to the team that made a run all the way to QG in Copa Libertadores. Very well regarded in Bolivia. It is not uncommon for GK's to play longer than outfield players. Every single article out there about his stint there has positive things to say and none even mention him having slowed down or being a liability or anywhere close to it.

Denis Irwin - There really is no peak for a plyer like Irwin. His strength was just consistency, solidity and stability...all traits he well demonstrated at Oldham. Made the PFA Team of the Season there too. Reports state Fergie scouted him for well over a year and watched over 20 games and was impressed leading to us signing him. The fact that the slotted in as the primary fullback for United/PL the very next year, speaks volumes about how solid he was at Oldham. You can frequently spot him in all-time Oldham XI lists too.

Salas - Nicknamed Matador, he was already crowd favourite. Top scorer at the club for 1994 and 1995. Integral part of the team ran all the way to QF in 1996 Copa Libertadores and scored in the QF match vs River too. 41 goals in 46 matches in 1994!

Sosa -Again, another fan favourite and part of 3 league title wins.

To be clear i don't have much issue with Salas, his record there is incredible and fits the draft theme well.

Will have a think about the other points, second division Iwrin does have a cause for concern against peak Blokhin.

 

[Gio]

I think Gio's doing a good job at distracting from the main event:

As good as a player Moller was, he is a absolute misfit for the role here. Even Gio's own write up talk about how attacking he was. From what I've watched him earlier (Skizzo picked him in earlier draft) he was a #10/SS who occasionally dropped deeper. Gabi will get no support defensively from his midfield.

Take a look at the peak battles here:

- Messi vs Sammer. Sammer is a stylistic match vs Messi. There's no "containing" peak Messi, but if any DM could prevent him from running riot, it will be Sammer (in his Dynamo CDM role).
- Blokhin vs Irwin. I'd call this a draw. Irwin does what Irwin does. Young as he may be, he's was as solid in Oldham as he was at United.

vs

- Pele vs Gabi. This will be a bloodbath.
- Junior vs ???. Letting a Serie A player of the Year run free!

No distraction here, just full transparency on my players and their peaks.

A second division player regarded as behind Chris Morris, John Anderson, Steve Staunton, etc is going to cancel out Blokhin, who gave Franz fecking Beckenbauer the runaround?

Gabi was a tremendous defensive midfielder. Forensic, focused, aware of what was going on in all directions, leading and prompting his teammates. Watch his performances against Barcelona around that time. Helped shut down the best midfield of all time and Messi himself on various occasions. Everyone around him is hard-working through the midfield and on the flanks - Rivelino can work, Moller can work, Blokhin can work, Boniek can work. Yes it's attack-minded. However, that's in keeping with how modern teams are set up. With old man Sosa not offering the same pace threat in behind, we can push up higher to squeeze the space and make our midfield's job easier.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

second division Iwrin does have a cause for concern against peak Blokhin.

Absolutely no concern there. This was a player who made PFA Team of Season with Oldham and effortlessly slotted in as United's first choice fullback the very next season. I've not seen a single piece of evidence that he was anything less than solid. I mean Fergie watched him at Oldham for over a year and was impressed. I have nothing further to say about his competency!

Everyone around him is hard-working through the midfield and on the flanks - Rivelino can work, Moller can work, Blokhin can work, Boniek can work. Yes it's attack-minded. However, that's in keeping with how modern teams are set up. With old man Sosa not offering the same pace threat in behind, we can push up higher to squeeze the space and make our midfield's job easier.

Sorry no. Neither Rivelino nor Moller will offer any worthwhile off the ball work rate or defensive contribution. Againt peak Leo Junior, it just isn't there.

With old man Sosa not offering the same pace threat in behind, we can push up higher to squeeze the space and make our midfield's job easier.

You have have a young Salas there. His pace and movement was superb and this set up is very reminiscent of Zamorano/Salas which was one of the best attacking duo's ever!

 

[Gio]

Sorry no. Neither Rivelino nor Moller will offer any worthwhile off the ball work rate or defensive contribution. Againt peak Leo Junior, it just isn't there.

Sorry, but this is just nonsense. Makes it sound like you've not watched either player.

Moller had 85 caps in the German team through the 1990s as part of midfields that won the World Cup and the Euros. He would not have started for those teams had he not been able to contribute on and off the ball. In fact those midfields were often quite top-heavy (for example, Moller/Hassler/Eilts or Bein/Moller/Matthaus) and he made it work through his energy and teamwork. There was a big clamour for Basler to be squeezed into the team after he'd provided 12 assists and 20 goals for Werder in 1994/95. Vogts stuck to his guns with Moller because he moulded the team in his own image as a pragmatist who prized the value of hard work. And was rewarded with the Euros in 1996.

Here is an example of his style at Juventus not long after he'd joined from Frankfurt (couldn't find a compilation there):



Now forget the great goals - look at the recoveries, the deep areas where he picks the ball up. Look at his assist for Baggio. An assist where he harasses Lentini and wins the ball back on the edge of his own box:



And you're making out Junior was Matthaus-esque in his off-the-ball contribution, when he clearly wasn't.

 

[Zlatan 7]

I voted gio, then read adegar and wanted to vote him, then read gio and wanted to vote him. Then back to Edgar again.
I think edgar wins the tactics but the players mentioned a bit out of peak has got me in a quandary

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I voted gio, then read adegar and wanted to vote him, then read gio and wanted to vote him. Then back to Edgar again.

Thank you! I thought I was the only one going back and forth

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

GG @Gio I took a gamble because it was Irwin, but looks like it wasn't to be so.

Another midfielder or two and you have another shot at finals.

 

[Gio]

GG @Gio I took a gamble because it was Irwin, but looks like it wasn't to be so.

Another midfielder or two and you have another shot at finals.

To be fair it's an odd one with Irwin that he wasn't involved with the national team until after signing for United. Oldham had that great FA Cup run ahead of the World Cup in 1990 and Irwin must at least have been in the spotlight at that stage. It's hard to say if Charlton was behind the curve or it was simply a case of other full-backs each playing at a higher level and Irwin was a relatively late bloomer. It would have been a tough team to break into after Ireland's showing at Euro 88 and then on a run of 13 unbeaten games ahead of the World Cup (including matches against France, West Germany, Soviet Union and Spain).

 

[Gio]

Good game @Edgar Allan Pillow. Aside from some of the peaks, the design of the team both tactically and thematically (i.e. the 80-90s Euros defence and the South American attack) was bang on the money. Particularly liked the Salas pick as his Chile stats checked out and he burned really brightly in the second half of the '90s.

 

[Enigma_87]

at the end went with Gio because of players peaks it wasn’t just Irwin but Gio’s were closer to their peak years which imo made the difference despite Edgar’s team was better suited tactically.