Ultimate Club Legends Draft - QF - Sjor vs 2mufc0

[GodShaveTheQueen]

----------------------SJOR-------------------------------------------------2MUFC0

SJOR TACTICS -
J. A. Bell (Al-Mokawloon al-Arab)
Spent 2 seasons in Egypt, won the African Cup Winners Cup and the league, after his career he was named African Keeper of the Century by IFFHS.

P. McGrath (Aston Villa)
One of the rare mistakes from Fergie, McGrath had a brilliant career at Aston Villa after Fergie let him go....won player of the club 4 times in a row, won PFA Players Player of the Year in 93 as well as being in Team of the Season for the same season.

V. Zajec (Panathinaikos)
One of the best croatian players of all time and ever present name in All Time XIs of both Panathinaikos and Dinamo Zagreb. Spent 4 years in greece, won the double in 86 and once more the cup in 88 and just before he joined them he was Yugoslavian Player of the Year in 84

J. Kohler (Dortmund)
All these hold even more weight as he did it as German Spurs - twice league winner and the CL winner with Dortmund! Was also a finalist of Uefa Cup on his last season. With Germany he won the Euro in 96 as well. Footballer of the year in 97 and twice in Kicker BL Team of the Season.

J. Angloma (Marseille)
Won the league and CL with Marseille while being in Euro Team of the Tournament for France in Euro 92

R. Jarni (Hajduk Split)
Best ever croatian leftback and pretty much the only period i personally rate in his career that went to shit or didnt went as it could have because of war and other various reasons.
In one of the best leagues in the world at the time he won the cup in 91 as well as doing great things at youth level of international football with the team winning Youth WC and being finalist in Euros 3 years later.

M. Essien (Lyon)
Spent 2 seasons at Lyon and won league in both, in second season he won player of the year as well as being in Team of the Season.

W. van Hanegem
Best midfielder of his country won 3 league titles with Feyenoord, one cup, one European Cup and one Uefa Cup as well as being second in WC 74 and third in Euro 76, he was also Dutch player of the year in 1971

Diego Maradona (Napoli)

Gerd Muller
Best striker that ever played the game.

Rivaldo (Palmeiras)
In his 3 seasons there he scored 55 goals in 86 games while winning the league in 94, Campeonato Paulista in 96 and being the finalist of Copa De Brasil in same season. In 94 he won Bola De Plata which is best player of Campeonato Brasileiro
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2MUFC0 TACTICS -

Total footballer Cruyff at the centre piece playing his lethal False 9 role, supported by two hard working goal scoring wide forwards and a technically sound midfield on his wavelength, work hard, press hard, keep the ball, create and score.

Whilst the opposition has a strong team particularly in attack I believe there are weaknesses which can be exploited, the main area to target is Cruyff vs Zajec, whilst I'm sure he was a decent player, his best years were playing for Zagreb (the Yugoslav player of the year award was for his time there not at Panathinaikos) , the version here is playing in Greece, objectively speaking there is a world of difference playing against Greek league players and one of the greatest attacker/pressers of all time, in a tight game it can make the world of difference.

I also have the far superior full backs where width will be an important factor in the game. Furthermore, whilst Jarni was a good youth player there doesn't appear to be anything remarkable about his time at Hadjuk compared to his counterparts on the pitch, up against my right side (Salah, Alberto and De Bruyne) it will be another avenue to exploit. The draft is about club form and league strength must be taken into consideration and should be a bigger factor especially as we progress through the rounds.

With regards to Diego, we have enough bodies hard workers in midfield to clog up the central areas and with our hard working attackers we will defend as a unit and cut off supply from the top. As for the dangerous Muller, we are well equipped to give him a tough game up against Vierchowod who was one of the best man markers of all time supported by Bratseth who's main strength was his reading of the game and intelligence which is essential against strikers like Muller.

PLAYER CLUB PROFILES (AGE RANGE AT CLUB IN BRACKETS)

Spoiler: Vincent Enyeama (19-22)

Enyeama’s goalkeeping prowess was a major factor in Enyimba's dominance in Nigerian football (winning 3 back to back league titles). He played a key role in helping the club win two CAF Champions League titles in 2003 and 2004, which cemented his reputation as one of the best goalkeepers in Africa at the time. His performances in those campaigns were crucial to Enyimba's success, as he made key saves in high-pressure situations, often keeping clean sheets against some of Africa's best clubs.

Enyeama’s success at Enyimba helped raise the profile of Nigerian football, and his contributions to the club were pivotal during a period of dominance in African club football.

IFFHS 2023 March: Greatest African Goalkeeper of all Time and regularly makes top 3 African goalkeepers of all time lists.

Spoiler: Carlos Alberto (19-22)

Carlos Alberto Torres's time at Fluminense was a successful one, and he is remembered as one of the club's greatest ever players. He was a key part of the team that won several titles, and he also helped them reach the final of the Copa Libertadores. Torres was a great player for Fluminense, and he is still remembered fondly by the club's fans.

Winner of the Campeonato Carioca: 1964, 1975, 1976 and Taça Guanabara: 1966.

See here for a season by season summary of his time at the club.

Spoiler: Rune Bratseth (26-34)

Rune Bratseth had an incredibly successful and impactful career at Werder Bremen, where he became one of the club's key figures during the late 1980s and early 1990s. The Norwegian defender joined Werder Bremen in 1987 and spent a significant part of his career there, establishing himself as one of the Bundesliga's top center-backs.

He was a vital part of Werder Bremen's defense and contributed to their rise as one of Germany's top teams during his tenure. He helped the club win two Bundesliga titles in 1988 & 1993 and the DFB-Pokal in 1991. Additionally, Bratseth was an important player in their run to the European Cup semifinals in 1993.

Club Honours:

• Bundesliga: 1987–88, 1992–93
• DFB-Pokal: 1990–91, 1993–94; runner-up: 1988–89, 1989–90
• European Cup Winners' Cup: 1991–92

Individual Honours:

• kicker Bundesliga Team of the Season: 1987–88, 1988–89, 1992–93
• Kniksen Award: Kniksen of the year in 1991, 1992, 1994, Kniksen's honour award in 1994

Spoiler: Pietro Vierchowod (24-36)

Pietro Vierchowod was one of the best defenders in the history of Sampdoria and had a massive impact during his time at the club. He played for Sampdoria from 1986 to 1994, and his time there was truly a golden period for the club.

He was a central figure in Sampdoria’s golden era in the late 1980s and early 1990s. His time at the club saw Sampdoria win the Serie A title in the 1990-91 season, which remains one of the greatest achievements in the club's history. Vierchowod also helped Sampdoria win the UEFA Cup Winners' Cup in 1990 and the European Cup final in 1992 and won the Copa Italia 4 times.

Individual accolades include Serie A Team of The Year: 1983, 1985, 1988, 1990, 1991, Guerin d'Oro: 1983.

Spoiler: Maxime Bossis (18-30 & 35-36)

Maxime Bossis was a legendary figure at FC Nantes, and one of the club's all-time greats. He spent the majority of his career there over two spells. Bossis played a key role in Nantes' golden era in the late 1970s and 1980s.

Club Honours include Ligue 1: 1976–77, 1979–80, 1982–83 and Coupe de France: 1978–79. Individual honours include French Player of the Year: 1979, 1981, Onze Mondial: 1979, 1980, 1981, 1983, 1984, 1985, World XI:1984, 1986.

Spoiler: Marcos Senna (27-38)

Marcos Senna was an absolutely crucial figure at Villarreal, and one of the club's most important players during his time there (2002–2013). He was often the metronome in Villarreal's midfield, providing both defensive cover and creative spark. Senna was also a crucial part of Villarreal’s domestic achievements. He helped the club consistently compete in European competitions, and his performances earned him a call-up to the Spanish national team. He played a significant role in Spain's 2008 UEFA European Championship victory.

Spoiler: Juan Sebastian Veron (19-21 and 31-39)

Juan Sebastián Verón had a remarkable and highly influential spell at Estudiantes de La Plata, both as a player and later as a club president. His time at Estudiantes can be seen as the pinnacle of his domestic career, as he returned to the club in 2006 after a long and successful European career. Verón's impact on Estudiantes was profound, and he played a major role in the club's resurgence during this period.

After stints at clubs like Boca Juniors, Lazio, and Manchester United, Verón returned to Estudiantes with a renewed sense of purpose. Under his leadership on the field, Estudiantes won the 2006 Copa Libertadores, a triumph that was particularly sweet for both the club and Verón himself, as it was his first time winning South America's premier club competition.

In 2009, he also helped Estudiantes win the Argentina Primera División, solidifying his status as one of the club's greatest-ever players. Indivdual honours during his time there include Footballer of the Year of Argentina: 2006, 2009, South American Team of the Year: 2006, 2008, 2009, 2010, South American Footballer of the Year: 2008, 2009, Copa Libertadores Most Valuable Player: 2009.

Spoiler: Kevin De Bruyne (24-33)

Established himself as one of the best midfielders in premier league history with an incredible assist record, key part of 6x PL titles and winning player of the season twice. At European level he has won the CL and selected in the team of the season twice. These are just some of his achievements and there are too many to list, a true club legend.

Spoiler: Samuel Eto'o (19-23)

Samuel Eto'o was outstanding at Real Mallorca, and his time there was a key period in his career that helped establish him as one of the best strikers in the world. He played for the club from 2000 to 2004, and during this time, he truly blossomed into a world-class forward.

Eto'o’s most notable achievements at Mallorca were winning the Copa Del Ray in 02-03 (scoring 2 in the final) and his goal-scoring record, where he managed to score 54 goals in 80 appearances in all competitions during his time with the club. His performances helped Mallorca secure qualification for the 2003-04 UEFA Cup, their first European competition appearance in over a decade, which was a major achievement for the club and as noted above winning the Copa Del Ray.

Eto'o enjoys cult status at Mallorca for his time at the club. https://www.rcdmallorca.es/en/news/rcd-mallorca-unveils-mural-dedicated-to-samuel-etoo

Spoiler: Mohamed Salah (25-32)

Not going too say too much about the scouse c.... cemented his position as a Liverpool legend and forced his way into the PL all time XI, an undeniable goal and assist record and the remarkable ability to produce consistently against the biggest teams in the league. His individual accolades are too long to list, whilst normally underrated generally in drafts imo this draft criteria is made for him and is one of the best players in the theme.

Spoiler: Johan Cruyff (17-26 and 34-36)

Another club GOAT that doesn't really need much explanation. 3x consecutive European Cups , 8 x consecutive league titles, 5 x KNVB cup and a very long list of individual honours. 353 appearances for Ajax scoring 285 goals and providing 202 assists.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

@Šjor Bepo @2mufc0

 

[Šjor Bepo]

While the gap between Cruyff and Zajec is insane its not correct he was at his best at Dinamo, its pretty much the same player that won the award and its no surprise he is pretty much locked name in the Panathinaikos Greatest XI of All Time even though he only spent there 4 years as a foreign player.
Plan to mark Cruyff obviously wont be to man mark him, plan is to stay compact and squeeze the space as much as possible, specially in the middle of the park and with the profile of players in the team i feel that would be possible. If needed leave the space out wide for the crosses from mid range as im not that concerned about anyone in the team, specially with the likes of McGrath and Kohler in the middle.

Personally i just cant see Senna + two 8/10 midfielders in a high press having that much of a chance to stop Diego who was embarrassing one of the if not the best high line defence of all time which is Sacchi's Milan. Add to the mix Rivaldo and the greatest striker of all time, i fancy my chances of breaking the opposition.

Regarding Jarni, its not a "youth" version of him, its best version of him so if anyone rates him, they rate this version not any other. I dont like him, think he is a twat but he was a damn good fullback. Fast as feck, great mentality, great left foot and could defend. While not the biggest name and obviously a lesser player overall then Bossis i feel he can have a much bigger impact as one of my biggest strengths is that left flank overload with insanely fast Jarni who can overlap whole day long and combination of Wim and Rivaldo. Salah can do his share of pressing but cant see him chasing back Jarni and KDB - Alberto would struggle even without Jarni in a 2v2 battle against Rivaldo and Wim.
Best thing about Jarni and Angloma that are both proven in back 3 formation and are great wingbacks with perfect athletic capabilities.

Speaking of Wim, just cant see who in that midfield can go into fight with him....KDB is a brilliant player who i rate insanely high and he is a good press player but once you get pass that, he has no chance to defend against Wim(Veron has even less chance) and Senna would be busy with Diego.

Van Hanegem has one advantage over me. When I have a bad game, I’m useless. When Van Hanegem has a bad game, he rolls up his sleeves and starts tackling - Johan Cruyff

Willem is a player who can make the game, break the game, can play fast, can play slow. For me, he's a perfect player - Ernst Happel

and just few more things:

• in a battle of "shit" keepers 2mufc has a worse keeper when both are at their best let alone a prebeard version he has.
• Vierchowod while having great athletic capabilities, Sampa generally played a fairly deep line so would be interesting to see how this would look
• dont see Veron nor fullbacks dynamic enough for the high press, Carlos Alberto would be amazing in Total Football though the structure should be a bit different

and the biggest thing is:
I dont see a Salah Cruyff combo working, Cruyff obviously needs to be the central piece and would be the central piece and i cant see Salah accepting the back role nor do i see his qualities for the support act. He was, is and should be the main offensive player of the team.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Interesting battle between Cruyff and van Hanegem, they played each other 15 times while one at Ajax and other at Feyenoord and their record is 5 wins for van Hanegem, 4 wins for Cruyff and obviously 6 draws. Dont think many can say that they have a better head to head record against Cruyff in a big sample of games!

 

[2mufc0]

While the gap between Cruyff and Zajec is insane its not correct he was at his best at Dinamo, its pretty much the same player that won the award and its no surprise he is pretty much locked name in the Panathinaikos Greatest XI of All Time even though he only spent there 4 years as a foreign player.
Plan to mark Cruyff obviously wont be to man mark him, plan is to stay compact and squeeze the space as much as possible, specially in the middle of the park and with the profile of players in the team i feel that would be possible. If needed leave the space out wide for the crosses from mid range as im not that concerned about anyone in the team, specially with the likes of McGrath and Kohler in the middle.

Personally i just cant see Senna + two 8/10 midfielders in a high press having that much of a chance to stop Diego who was embarrassing one of the if not the best high line defence of all time which is Sacchi's Milan. Add to the mix Rivaldo and the greatest striker of all time, i fancy my chances of breaking the opposition.

Regarding Jarni, its not a "youth" version of him, its best version of him so if anyone rates him, they rate this version not any other. I dont like him, think he is a twat but he was a damn good fullback. Fast as feck, great mentality, great left foot and could defend. While not the biggest name and obviously a lesser player overall then Bossis i feel he can have a much bigger impact as one of my biggest strengths is that left flank overload with insanely fast Jarni who can overlap whole day long and combination of Wim and Rivaldo. Salah can do his share of pressing but cant see him chasing back Jarni and KDB - Alberto would struggle even without Jarni in a 2v2 battle against Rivaldo and Wim.
Best thing about Jarni and Angloma that are both proven in back 3 formation and are great wingbacks with perfect athletic capabilities.

Speaking of Wim, just cant see who in that midfield can go into fight with him....KDB is a brilliant player who i rate insanely high and he is a good press player but once you get pass that, he has no chance to defend against Wim(Veron has even less chance) and Senna would be busy with Diego.




and just few more things:

• in a battle of "shit" keepers 2mufc has a worse keeper when both are at their best let alone a prebeard version he has.
• Vierchowod while having great athletic capabilities, Sampa generally played a fairly deep line so would be interesting to see how this would look
• dont see Veron nor fullbacks dynamic enough for the high press, Carlos Alberto would be amazing in Total Football though the structure should be a bit different

and the biggest thing is:
I dont see a Salah Cruyff combo working, Cruyff obviously needs to be the central piece and would be the central piece and i cant see Salah accepting the back role nor do i see his qualities for the support act. He was, is and should be the main offensive player of the team.

I don't mean it in a disrespectful way but being in the all time Panathinaikos doesn't mean much, if we start rating guys who played in the Greek and Croatian leagues in equal footing with players who shown their quality in big leagues it renders the draft theme pointless, they are obvious weak points. Angloma is fine, in terms of draft criteria he ticks the boxes while the other 2 i have pointed out clearly don't.

I mean you seem to have a similar strategy to deal with Cruyff as we have with Diego, if anything i think your midfield is worse for such a tactic, it means Zajec having to push up to make up the numbers in midfield, this is perfect conditions for Cruyff to drag him around and create space for Eto'o and Salah to exploit.

You're also misunderstanding the way we will defend, this type of football isn't about man for man and old school hard tackling man marking, it's about the players working together to close down space and intercept. De Bruyne pretty much played this role with David Silva, Bernardo Silva and Gundogan as the 3rd midfielder, and Veron is much better in defense than the first 2 and more comparable to Gundogan in this respect. Another way this system defends is by simply keeping the ball, it's clear we will dominate possession here. On Veron, i watched quite a bit of his Estudiantes footage and he took on more defensive responsibility and played deeper during his time there, worked incredibly hard and was soo good at reading the game and intercepting and at the same time still demonstrating his play making ability.

I didn't want to mention the keepers, as like you said they are hardly match winners, but i don't agree yours is better, Bell wasn't even the best keeper for his country, he was always behind N'Kono for Cameroon and there isn't much about his 2 seasons in Egypt. Whilst Eneyaema has over 100 caps for Nigeria and IS the premier goal keeper for his country. So i don't see any basis for Bell being any better.

Vierchowod is a product of the tactics of his time and league he played in, his attributes are perfect for these tactics:

(..) Diego Maradona (..) dubbed Vierchowod his toughest opponent, stating that "[Vierchowod] was an animal, he had muscles to the eyelashes. It was easy to pass by him, but then when I raised my head, he was in front of me again. I would have to pass him two or three more times and then I would pass the ball because I couldn't stand him anymore".

Going to have to disagree with Salah, whilst he's been the main man at Liverpool this is because he's been simply better than his teammates, neither Klopp's or Slot's system's have a focal player who is the main threat. He's assist record speaks for itself, yeah he can be greedy but you want your wide forwards to be so in such a system. He's nothing like a Ronaldo or Ibrahimovic in terms of personality.

 

[2mufc0]

Here is Veron with a man of the match performance in the Libertadores final, as you will note he plays a lot deeper, works hard and wins the ball a number of times, his role here was quite different to the player he was in Europe . Also note how he hassles and closes down the opposition attackers.



His first action of the game is closing down and winning the ball.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

I don't mean it in a disrespectful way but being in the all time Panathinaikos doesn't mean much, if we start rating guys who played in the Greek and Croatian leagues in equal footing with players who shown their quality in big leagues it renders the draft theme pointless, they are obvious weak points. Angloma is fine, in terms of draft criteria he ticks the boxes while the other 2 i have pointed out clearly don't.

I mean you seem to have a similar strategy to deal with Cruyff as we have with Diego, if anything i think your midfield is worse for such a tactic, it means Zajec having to push up to make up the numbers in midfield, this is perfect conditions for Cruyff to drag him around and create space for Eto'o and Salah to exploit.

You're also misunderstanding the way we will defend, this type of football isn't about man for man and old school hard tackling man marking, it's about the players working together to close down space and intercept. De Bruyne pretty much played this role with David Silva, Bernardo Silva and Gundogan as the 3rd midfielder, and Veron is much better in defense than the first 2 and more comparable to Gundogan in this respect. Another way this system defends is by simply keeping the ball, it's clear we will dominate possession here. On Veron, i watched quite a bit of his Estudiantes footage and he took on more defensive responsibility and played deeper during his time there, worked incredibly hard and was soo good at reading the game and intercepting and at the same time still demonstrating his play making ability.

I didn't want to mention the keepers, as like you said they are hardly match winners, but i don't agree yours is better, Bell wasn't even the best keeper for his country, he was always behind N'Kono for Cameroon and there isn't much about his 2 seasons in Egypt. Whilst Eneyaema has over 100 caps for Nigeria and IS the premier goal keeper for his country. So i don't see any basis for Bell being any better.

Vierchowod is a product of the tactics of his time and league he played in, his attributes are perfect for these tactics:



Going to have to disagree with Salah, whilst he's been the main man at Liverpool this is because he's been simply better than his teammates, neither Klopp's or Slot's system's have a focal player who is the main threat. He's assist record speaks for himself, yeah he can be greedy but you want your wide forwards to be so in such a system. He's nothing like a Ronaldo or Ibrahimovic in terms of personality.

It does mean about level of his performance for that club, yes the league was most likely poor(much better then now) but id rather have a proper legend of the smaller club(in this specific draft) then a great player who spent time before his peak at smaller club(Eto'o). Mind you, i think Eto'o is fine in this tactic.

As for the croatian league, it was Yugoslavian league and that league was amongst best in Europe. League was stacked with talent and clubs were doing well in Europe as well even though talent was well spread over many teams rather then just big 1 or 2 clubs taking all the cream.

Sorry i misunderstood your post, i assumed you were playing Total Football. If not then i think i have even bigger edge as i dont really rate defensive capabilities of your front 5 outside of pressing system(funnily enough Veron would be fine then).

My gameplan is to sit deep, so even when Zajec "pushes" up and follows Cruyff a bit there wont be much space + Kohler and McGrath are waiting for Eto'o and Rensenbrink, my back 5 wont break with Cruyff drifting away from his position.

Now im reading you want to defend via possession but also want to defend "similar" to me which means defend from deep, those two really dont go hand in hand.

Andy Cole didnt play for england while Kenny Miller played for Scotland, if Enyeama competition was Nkono he would have had 1 cap not 100.

I mean i wont pretend i know much about either Enyeama(let alone young version) nor Bell but if we going by reputation Bell is a clear winner?

Being the main man and being selfish are completely different things. Salah at this best is doing similar things that Cruyff did, their attacking teammates were sacrificing their game with their movement and lack of ball time for them do to their thing so its impossible to get best version of both and i dont really see qualities of Salah for that support role.

 

[2mufc0]

It does mean about level of his performance for that club, yes the league was most likely poor(much better then now) but id rather have a proper legend of the smaller club(in this specific draft) then a great player who spent time before his peak at smaller club(Eto'o). Mind you, i think Eto'o is fine in this tactic.

As for the croatian league, it was Yugoslavian league and that league was amongst best in Europe. League was stacked with talent and clubs were doing well in Europe as well even though talent was well spread over many teams rather then just big 1 or 2 clubs taking all the cream.

Sorry i misunderstood your post, i assumed you were playing Total Football. If not then i think i have even bigger edge as i dont really rate defensive capabilities of your front 5 outside of pressing system(funnily enough Veron would be fine then).

My gameplan is to sit deep, so even when Zajec "pushes" up and follows Cruyff a bit there wont be much space + Kohler and McGrath are waiting for Eto'o and Rensenbrink, my back 5 wont break with Cruyff drifting away from his position.

Now im reading you want to defend via possession but also want to defend "similar" to me which means defend from deep, those two really dont go hand in hand.

Andy Cole didnt play for england while Kenny Miller played for Scotland, if Enyeama competition was Nkono he would have had 1 cap not 100.

I mean i wont pretend i know much about either Enyeama(let alone young version) nor Bell but if we going by reputation Bell is a clear winner?

Being the main man and being selfish are completely different things. Salah at this best is doing similar things that Cruyff did, their attacking teammates were sacrificing their game with their movement and lack of ball time for them do to their thing so its impossible to get best version of both and i dont really see qualities of Salah for that support role.

As I have already said Jarni appears to be a good young player (his age range is 18-23 here ) , but if you expect him to handle seasoned world class pros like De Bruyne Salah operating down his side then there isn't much to say really. Like I said club/league strength should carry weight. Same goes for Zajec, seems like I'm beating a dead horse but in a draft like this in the second round these types of players are weak points particularly against the players they are up against.

I see the point about Eto'o but he has proven himself during his time there in one of the top leagues in Europe, including scoring goals against the likes of Real Madrid. Same can't be said about Jarni and Zajec.

Don't think I've ever said we are playing a total football tactic although the modern game is pretty much now played/built on these principles. And our tactics will be pretty modern defend as a team close down the spaces, press etc. The possession remark was more about the quality we have in midfield in terms of ball retention, the only one from your team who could compete is Van Hanegem. So naturally we will have more possession, and giving the likes of De Bruyne, Veron and Cruyff time on the ball they will create chances.

Regarding the GK, the comparison is false, as Nigeria have traditionally been one of the stronger teams in Africa compared to Scotland in Europe. I'm not going to spend too much time arguing this as imo there is no difference between the two, Bell certainly isn't better is what I was pushing back on.

Salah is completely different from Cruyff, he primarily operates in the final third looking to score and assist. One of Salah's strengths is his off the ball movement, he will create space for Cruyff to exploit and vice versa. We will just have to agree to disagree here as we see things completely differently.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

As I have already said Jarni appears to be a good young player (his age range is 18-23 here ) , but if you expect him to handle seasoned world class pros like De Bruyne Salah operating down his side then there isn't much to say really. Like I said club/league strength should carry weight. Same goes for Zajec, seems like I'm beating a dead horse but in a draft like this in the second round these types of players are week points particularly against the players they are up against.

I see the point about Eto'o but he has proven himself during his time there in one of the top leagues in Europe, including scoring goals against the likes of Real Madrid. Same can't be said about Jarni and Zajec.

Don't think I've ever said we are playing a total football tactic although the modern game is pretty much now played/built on these principles. And our tactics will be pretty modern defend as a team close down the spaces, press etc. The possession remark was more about the quality we have in midfield in terms of ball retention, the only one from your team who could compete is Van Hanegem. So naturally we will have more possession, and giving the likes of De Bruyne, Veron and Cruyff time on the ball they will create chances.

Regarding the GK, the comparison is false, as Nigeria have traditionally been one of the stronger teams in Africa compared to Scotland in Europe. I'm not going to spend too much time arguing this as imo there is no difference between the two, Bell certainly isn't better is what I was pushing back on.

Salah is completely different from Cruyff, he primarily operates in the final third looking to score and assist. One of Salah's strengths is his off the ball movement, he will creta space for Cruyff to exploit and vice versa. We will just have to agree to disagree here as we see things completely differenty.

of course that level of league carries the weight, im one of the strongest believers of that(if you remember valencia kanchelskis debate in convo) but lets not pretend then that argentinian league is a good league in that period.
also, while you have a point and i agree about greek league, you are completely wrong about jarni and the yugoslavian league.

as i said, i made a wrong assumption as i saw total football before cruyffs name.
so how do you defend then?

how good was nigeria is irrelevant, what is relevant is who was his competition at the time.
as i said, wont pretend i know about either but most sides if not all have bell as the better keeper and that your boy at his peak not the college version(im assuming he peaked later as 99% of keepers).

well we disagree on salah, alongside his mentality his biggest strenghts are with ball in his feet rather then of the ball.
obviously cruyff would get more involved then salah but fact is both prefer to play with ball in their feet, both are the main focal point in both scoring and assisting and both had teammates doing the "dirty"(dont mean workrate and defending) for them like its with every main player ever.

 

[2mufc0]

of course that level of league carries the weight, im one of the strongest believers of that(if you remember valencia kanchelskis debate in convo) but lets not pretend then that argentinian league is a good league in that period.
also, while you have a point and i agree about greek league, you are completely wrong about jarni and the yugoslavian league.

as i said, i made a wrong assumption as i saw total football before cruyffs name.
so how do you defend then?

how good was nigeria is irrelevant, what is relevant is who was his competition at the time.
as i said, wont pretend i know about either but most sides if not all have bell as the better keeper and that your boy at his peak not the college version(im assuming he peaked later as 99% of keepers).

well we disagree on salah, alongside his mentality his biggest strenghts are with ball in his feet rather then of the ball.
obviously cruyff would get more involved then salah but fact is both prefer to play with ball in their feet, both are the main focal point in both scoring and assisting and both had teammates doing the "dirty"(dont mean workrate and defending) for them like its with every main player ever.

First point - already extensively discussed players playing for weaker clubs in weak leagues so will leave it there.

Regarding the goalkeeper credentials see:

Vincent Enyeama’s rise to prominence started when he joined Enyimba International FC in 2001. There, he backstopped the club to three Nigerian Premier League titles and back-to-back CAF Champions Leagues in 2003 and 2004. They’re the only Nigerian club to be crowned continental champions, and Enyeama received Champions League Player of the Year honours in both campaigns.

So he was pretty good from a young age, being player of the tournament for both continental cups is quite the achievement. Like I said, i don't believe it's worth arguing too much who is better.

How we are defending is already been discussed, in the OP and in the posts above I don't really have more to add.

Yes Salah is good on the ball but he's not the creator especially in deeper areas, most of his assists come from his excellent crosses in the final third, they really aren't comparable in terms of the way they create. I think you are under rating his off the ball movement, it's the reason why he often scores goals running off the shoulder of the last defender and also ghosting around the box for tap ins and generally being in the right place at the right time to score.

 

[Physiocrat]

@Šjor Bepo How good was Zajec's passing?

 

[Šjor Bepo]

@Šjor Bepo How good was Zajec's passing?

they called him the beckenbauer, obviously means feck all but tells you the story about his playing style.

he was quality on the ball but was more ball carrier(brilliant dribbler) then passer, was tidy but he was no playmaker ir some long range passer

 

[Gio]

Good debate. Teams are stacked as well.

Salah is completely different from Cruyff, he primarily operates in the final third looking to score and assist. One of Salah's strengths is his off the ball movement, he will create space for Cruyff to exploit and vice versa. We will just have to agree to disagree here as we see things completely differently.

Yeah I'd agree, looks like a perfect partnership.

Personally i just cant see Senna + two 8/10 midfielders in a high press having that much of a chance to stop Diego who was embarrassing one of the if not the best high line defence of all time which is Sacchi's Milan. Add to the mix Rivaldo and the greatest striker of all time, i fancy my chances of breaking the opposition.

Regarding Jarni, its not a "youth" version of him, its best version of him so if anyone rates him, they rate this version not any other. I dont like him, think he is a twat but he was a damn good fullback. Fast as feck, great mentality, great left foot and could defend. While not the biggest name and obviously a lesser player overall then Bossis i feel he can have a much bigger impact as one of my biggest strengths is that left flank overload with insanely fast Jarni who can overlap whole day long and combination of Wim and Rivaldo. Salah can do his share of pressing but cant see him chasing back Jarni and KDB - Alberto would struggle even without Jarni in a 2v2 battle against Rivaldo and Wim.
Best thing about Jarni and Angloma that are both proven in back 3 formation and are great wingbacks with perfect athletic capabilities.

Speaking of Wim, just cant see who in that midfield can go into fight with him....KDB is a brilliant player who i rate insanely high and he is a good press player but once you get pass that, he has no chance to defend against Wim(Veron has even less chance) and Senna would be busy with Diego.

Agree on Jarni, always looked influential and classy whenever we saw him in the 90s.

2mufc0 has a lovely midfield and I'd disagree on Veron. Serie A Veron could battle well and had good athletic attributes. Not sure how young or old Veron compare. Will have a look at 2mufc0's video above. But yes I share your concern that Diego is a big issue against that trio. I don't think they handle him. The question for me is to what extent Sjor's team can retain compactness to squeeze Cruyff, given the quality on the ball of KDB/Veron/Senna is likely to entice Essien and Wim forward. So do they press together as a team and to what extent does that give space for Eto'o and Salah to hit in behind?

 

[2mufc0]

Good debate. Teams are stacked as well.



Yeah I'd agree, looks like a perfect partnership.

Agree on Jarni, always looked influential and classy whenever we saw him in the 90s.

2mufc0 has a lovely midfield and I'd disagree on Veron. Serie A Veron could battle well and had good athletic attributes. Not sure how young or old Veron compare. Will have a look at 2mufc0's video above. But yes I share your concern that Diego is a big issue against that trio. I don't think they handle him. The question for me is to what extent Sjor's team can retain compactness to squeeze Cruyff, given the quality on the ball of KDB/Veron/Senna is likely to entice Essien and Wim forward. So do they press together as a team and to what extent does that give space for Eto'o and Salah to hit in behind?

I didn't want to talk about Veron's profile in Serie A too much as per the draft rules it isn't really relevant, but i agree he has a wrong reputation for the silky man in midfield, but he was more than capable to get into a battle and use his physical attributes, to be successful in Serie A in that period you needed some steel to succeed in central midfield. Notwithstanding this, as i have mentioned he is a bit older here and from the footage i've seen his forward runs into the final third were reduced and he was more of a traditional central midfielder, which is perfect in this setup as i want De Bruyne to be the attacking CM here. You can watch the video for yourself, that Liberatores win was the first in almost 40 years for Estudiantes and Veron won Argentine and South American player of the year. That same year they mixed it up with Pep's Barcelona in the club World Cup final and narrowly lost (Barca equalizing in the 88th minute and getting the winning goal in the second half of extra time), Veron had a good game against Xavi, Busquets and Messi here too, he actaully won the silver ball in this tournament behind Messi.

Diego will be an issue no matter the midfield he faces tbh, but as i have mentioned we have hard workers that will clog up the central midfield giving him little room to operate, as we are going to keep the ball most of the time i can see Diego dropping deep to get the ball and we would prefer him in this position rather than the final third. As you have mentioned the opposition has the much bigger dilemma with Cruyff up against Greek league player Zajec and not a particularly mobile midfield (Essien being the only one).

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Good debate. Teams are stacked as well.



Yeah I'd agree, looks like a perfect partnership.

Agree on Jarni, always looked influential and classy whenever we saw him in the 90s.

2mufc0 has a lovely midfield and I'd disagree on Veron. Serie A Veron could battle well and had good athletic attributes. Not sure how young or old Veron compare. Will have a look at 2mufc0's video above. But yes I share your concern that Diego is a big issue against that trio. I don't think they handle him. The question for me is to what extent Sjor's team can retain compactness to squeeze Cruyff, given the quality on the ball of KDB/Veron/Senna is likely to entice Essien and Wim forward. So do they press together as a team and to what extent does that give space for Eto'o and Salah to hit in behind?

rate Veron defensive qualities, what i said is that i dont see him nor dynamic nor disciplined enough for the press.

My tactic is to sit deep and hit the counter, whole team is formed that way and both Essien and Wim have experiance of playing that way and both are immense defensive wise.

Mallorca Etoo and Salah will have trouble of hitting behind as defence will be deep but even when they manage there are McGrath and Kohler.