U21s Year in Review

gooDevil

Worst scout ever
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I'll post something later, but thought a thread for people to post their end-of-season thoughts was appropriate.

Certainly ended much better than it started, I think this was a fantastic group that came into the U21s this season.
 
It has certainly been very positive for a lot of the players. Varela has settled well and excelled especially so, when you consider the personal hardships he endured mid way through the season as well. Wilson has been brilliant. Janko, Pearson and Rothwell have all been great considering their age as well.

Reece James and Paddy McNair are the under the radar guys for me, McNair has transitioned well to centre back and is very good on the ball. I reckon Van Gaal may like the look of him. Reece James is someone who I thought could possibly play a couple games in the run in. In fact, everyone who has played in defence this year deserves some credit, they have all contributed to a great season at the back, best defensive record in the U-21 league.
 
I've been disappointed with the way we handled Rudge,Barmby,Grimshaw this season.Grimshaw's injury didn't help much either.

Good to see Pearson,Rothwell,McNair,Ekanagamene,James,Varela,Janko making steady progress.Loan would be the next step for them.

Wilson is definitely the highlight of the team.
 
khoazany said:
I've been disappointed with the way we handled Rudge,Barmby,Grimshaw this season.Grimshaw's injury didn't help much either.

Good to see Pearson,Rothwell,McNair,Ekanagamene,James,Varela,Janko making steady progress.Loan would be the next step for them.

Wilson is definitely the highlight of the team.
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How many months has he been out for now? Do you know what kind of injury we're talking?
 
Not sure about Varela going on loan to be honest. He's still v raw defensively. He could get lost out on loan. Maybe a short term one like a month somewhere and see how he gets on.

there's nothing worse than sending a youngster out for 6 months or a season and you just know its been the wrong move....
 
Decotron said:
Not sure about Varela going on loan to be honest. He's still v raw defensively. He could get lost out on loan. Maybe a short term one like a month somewhere and see how he gets on.

there's nothing worse than sending a youngster out for 6 months or a season and you just know its been the wrong move....
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It depends doesn't it. Fundamentally he needs game time. And if he made a Championship level move, and he was their number 1 right back and he played approx 80% of the games in the season, there is no better way to learn your trade.

It's something though that we need to look at because at times I have felt we loan players for the sake of loaning them, with no real thought about who we are sending them to, what we want them to achieve, and if that club is on board. Just look at Zaha at Cardiff this year for an example.

We need to be meticulous in our planning when we loan players, because IMO it's probably the most vital part of the transition to the first team.
 
rpitroda said:
It depends doesn't it. Fundamentally he needs game time. And if he made a Championship level move, and he was their number 1 right back and he played approx 80% of the games in the season, there is no better way to learn your trade.

It's something though that we need to look at because at times I have felt we loan players for the sake of loaning them, with no real thought about who we are sending them to, what we want them to achieve, and if that club is on board. Just look at Zaha at Cardiff this year for an example.

We need to be meticulous in our planning when we loan players, because IMO it's probably the most vital part of the transition to the first team.
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Yeah agree completely on that. Its the moves that don't work out that annoy me the most. I often think we'd have been better off keeping them here.

I think Leicester would be a great club for any of our youngsters to move to. The progression of some of their own younger players has been fantastic. One of our former lads Drinkwater in particular....
 
The loans that go bad are too ambition, our players end up behind someone else and play very little.

Macheda is a perfect example, because it was clear his ego was part of the problem. He thought he was better than he really was, and so wished to be on better teams where he invariably played little.
 
I do also think we need to look at making the u21s team into an unofficial u19s team for us, barring the odd exception like perhaps Lingard or 'Lionel' Cole who might need that longer bit of adjustment. AND STOP RELEASING DEFENDERS AND FORWARDS! We've let go Barmby and Byrne while the u21s is still absolutely stocked with centre mids.
 
Decotron said:
Yeah agree completely on that. Its the moves that don't work out that annoy me the most. I often think we'd have been better off keeping them here.

I think Leicester would be a great club for any of our youngsters to move to. The progression of some of their own younger players has been fantastic. One of our former lads Drinkwater in particular....
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I think half the problem in the last few years is that Hull and Leicester have been promoted, so we couldn't mass-loan our kids to them (or, specifically, to Steve Bruce or Nigel Pearson) any more. Also, we lost the Darren Ferguson connection (and Peterborough got relegated).

I'm hoping the number of players we sent to Birmingham City this season is a sign of something more than just a few coincidental loans...
 
eddiebb said:
I do also think we need to look at making the u21s team into an unofficial u19s team for us, barring the odd exception like perhaps Lingard or 'Lionel' Cole who might need that longer bit of adjustment. AND STOP RELEASING DEFENDERS AND FORWARDS! We've let go Barmby and Byrne while the u21s is still absolutely stocked with centre mids.
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This has left me baffled over the last 3 seasons. Id love to know how many times we've not had a striker either starting or one on the bench. Its bizarre really....

I cant understand it from a development point of view on occasion but it seems to be the norm now.
 
gooDevil said:
The loans that go bad are too ambition, our players end up behind someone else and play very little.

Macheda is a perfect example, because it was clear his ego was part of the problem. He thought he was better than he really was, and so wished to be on better teams where he invariably played little.
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Do very much agree with this. We try and get a player to the best possible club they could possibly have the remotest chance of playing for. We should probably be more pragmatic and risk averse and just at the very least guarantee them playing time in their future position.
 
rpitroda said:
Do very much agree with this. We try and get a player to the best possible club they could possibly have the remotest chance of playing for. We should probably be more pragmatic and risk averse and just at the very least guarantee them playing time in their future position.
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Which makes sense. Ultimately, they're hoping to play for Manchester United so you want the step up to be as minimal as possible. Plus, the best way to develop anyone's game is to play in a team where he is surrounded by good players, in as strong a league as possible. If they're the most skilled player in a team of cloggers playing against limited opposition they're not really going to improve. The opposite, if anything.
 
But conversely, someone playing 40 games in a relegation dogfight in the Championship is learning more than someone who goes to sit on the bench at a mid-table Premiership outfit. If we want people to know what it's like to sit on the bench, we are capable of providing it here and we would also hopefully supply a much higher standard of training into the bargain. For me the end game has to be getting these lads to play as much as possible against grown men in a fully professional environment as young as possible and as is safe.
 
eddiebb said:
But conversely, someone playing 40 games in a relegation dogfight in the Championship is learning more than someone who goes to sit on the bench at a mid-table Premiership outfit. If we want people to know what it's like to sit on the bench, we are capable of providing it here and we would also hopefully supply a much higher standard of training into the bargain. For me the end game has to be getting these lads to play as much as possible against grown men in a fully professional environment as young as possible and as is safe.
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There's a balance to be struck but, at the end of the day, if a 19-20 year old footballer is only good enough to get games for one of the worst teams in the Championship he's unlikely to have much of a future at United anyway.

Rossi is the only player I can think of who went on an unsuccessful loan but ended up proving himself (arguably) good enough for United after he left the club and started playing regularly elsewhere.

The harsh reality is that the vast majority of kids coming up through our ranks will never make it at United. Failing to get games when on loan is more likely to be a sign that they won't make the grade, rather than a poor choice of loan club. It's only the really exceptional talents that will make it here and they tend to force their way into the team wherever they are sent on loan.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
There's a balance to be struck but, at the end of the day, if a 19-20 year old footballer is only good enough to get games for one of the worst teams in the Championship he's unlikely to have much of a future at United anyway.

Rossi is the only player I can think of who went on an unsuccessful loan but ended up proving himself (arguably) good enough for United after he left the club and started playing regularly elsewhere.

The harsh reality is that the vast majority of kids coming up through our ranks will never make it at United. Failing to get games when on loan is more likely to be a sign that they won't make the grade, rather than a poor choice of loan club. It's only the really exceptional talents that will make it here and they tend to force their way into the team wherever they are sent on loan.
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Ross Barkley went to Sheffield Wednesday and Leeds on loan and wasn't getting into the team regularly at either club. He's done alright for himself.

Nathaniel Chalobah was the star man for Watford in a season where they made the playoff final and this season he's regressed quite a bit.

Tom Cleverly had to go down to League One to get first team football as a youngster.

Will Keane went to champions elect QPR and played plenty but didn't score a single goal, and now he can't even make the matchday squad, but he's in esteemed company as the only player all season that's managed to score goals for them is Charlie Austin. The likes of Bobby Zamora, Andy Johnson, Modibo Maiga have all failed in that team too. I personly thine would have played a great deal better, and probably scored a few too, if he'd gone to a team like Barnsley or Doncaster or Yeovil, who were fighting relegation all season and were desperately in need of goals from anywhere.

I think it's a mistake to say that good players will always play and players who don't play are bad players - football is far too subjective to say things like that in such black and white terms. For me experience of senior football is paramount because, at the age of 19 or 20, they already have the technical and tactical basis they need and it's absolutely 100% about experience.
 
For me all the important players have carried on moving in the right direction. Well, except Pereira maybe, who continues to be worryingly inconsistent. He's starting to catch up on the massive age gap he originally had on his teammates, too, so that excuse is running dry.

But Wilson, Pearson, Rothwell, James and Varela have all continued to develop very nicely (as have many others - I pick those guys out as off-the-top-of-my-head standouts.) I expect to see Wilson either getting games with the first team next season, or attracting a really good PL loan. The people who matter and have really paid attention to him will know that he's more than ready to slot into a PL first team and be banging the goals in, and the Hull game underlined that nicely. The dream scenario, for me, is that Mourinho comes to his senses and holds onto Lukaku, Everton get priced out on the strikers they consider as replacements, and they get Wilson on loan in a similar move to Deulofeu's this season. His combination of Owen-esque pace and finishing with excellent technical ability would fit beautifully into Everton's current set-up, and Martinez could do wonderful things with him.

Meanwhile I'm confident that Pearson and Rothwell are firmly in line to be where Wilson is now by this time next season. I'd like to see us keep them in the U21s, give them a year to get really established and properly physically ready. Like Wilson, their potential is too obvious to be risked on a loan spell. Keep them close and under a very watchful eye.

I agree with others above that it would be nice to find a couple of reliable Championship clubs to take a few of our youngsters each season the way Hull and Peterborough used to. Our current approach to the very flawed PL youth development environment is very reliant on loans working out. We can't afford to be winging it with ten or twelve young players each year.
 
rpitroda said:
Do very much agree with this. We try and get a player to the best possible club they could possibly have the remotest chance of playing for. We should probably be more pragmatic and risk averse and just at the very least guarantee them playing time in their future position.
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They absolutely shouldn't be somewhere they'd get games even if they didn't put the effort in each and every day, as that simply wouldn't prepare them for life at United. Finding the right club for the right player is tricky beeswax.
 
I think Janko, M.Keane and Lawrence will all become handy squad players....one out of them may become a first teamer one day but it's hard to say.......Wilson looks great too and could have a huge future but it will be a long time before he gets anywhere near our first team......a couple of years ago the likes of Larnell Cole, Tunnicliffe, Lingard, Daehli and Will Keane etc were being hyped up as certainties to make our first 11 eventually and it never quite turned out that way
 
Ringo 07 said:
I think Janko, M.Keane and Lawrence will all become handy squad players....one out of them may become a first teamer one day but it's hard to say.......Wilson looks great too and could have a huge future but it will be a long time before he gets anywhere near our first team......a couple of years ago the likes of Larnell Cole, Tunnicliffe, Lingard, Daehli and Will Keane etc were being hyped up as certainties to make our first 11 eventually and it never quite turned out that way
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Not by anyone who knew what they were talking about. No player is a 'certainty' - not Morrison/Pogba, not Januzaj, not Wilson.

Cole, Lingard and Tunnicliffe have always had as many detractors as supporters (in terms of their chances of making the first team), as I remember it. Tunnicliffe in particular was regarded as less and less of a solid shout as he got older, because more and more people saw that his technical ability was not keeping up with his other attributes. Lingard, I maintain, still has a chance of making it into the senior squad. He's shown in two tours in a row that he can be special when surrounded by top players.

Daehli was definitely regarded as up there with Pearson and Wilson as a possibility, but then he never had the chance to not make it, did he? He wanted to leave for first team football, and we let him. He certainly didn't leave because anyone didn't think he was good enough - he'd been developing very nicely.

Keane is the only one where you really have a point. He was quite literally the Wilson of the generation before. But he's living proof of how much a badly timed injury at youth level can hurt you. It's not just about delaying your development, but about other younger players accelerating past you. I couldn't tell you what will happen with Keane, but he's certainly missed his chance of getting first-team game time via the short route.

I agree with your basic cautionary point, but I don't think it's fair to make out that the Caf's youth forum as a whole ever got unduly optimistic about these players. There are always one or two getting overexcited, but in general the consensus on here is sensible, because it's formed by people who watch youth football week-in week-out, and know how quickly a promising player can make it as a first-teamer, and how quickly they can disappear into obscurity.
 
eddiebb said:
Ross Barkley went to Sheffield Wednesday and Leeds on loan and wasn't getting into the team regularly at either club. He's done alright for himself.

Nathaniel Chalobah was the star man for Watford in a season where they made the playoff final and this season he's regressed quite a bit.

Tom Cleverly had to go down to League One to get first team football as a youngster.

Keane went to champions elect QPR and played plenty but didn't score a single goal, and now he can't even make the matchday squad, but he's in esteemed company as the only player all season that's managed to score goals for them is Charlie Austin. The likes of Bobby Zamora, Andy Johnson, Modibo Maiga have all failed in that team too. I personly thine would have played a great deal better, and probably scored a few too, if he'd gone to a team like Barnsley or Doncaster or Yeovil, who were fighting relegation all season and were desperately in need of goals from anywhere.

I think it's a mistake to say that good players will always play and players who don't play are bad players - football is far too subjective to say things like that in such black and white terms. For me experience of senior football is paramount because, at the age of 19 or 20, they already have the technical and tactical basis they need and it's absolutely 100% about experience.
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Which is why I didn't say that.

As I said, there's a balance to be struck. You want them to play as much football as possible, while also ensuring they are playing at as high a level as possible. What I disagree with is the idea that we should ignore the latter and focus entirely on the former.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Which makes sense. Ultimately, they're hoping to play for Manchester United so you want the step up to be as minimal as possible. Plus, the best way to develop anyone's game is to play in a team where he is surrounded by good players, in as strong a league as possible. If they're the most skilled player in a team of cloggers playing against limited opposition they're not really going to improve. The opposite, if anything.
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Yes. Obviously. That goes without saying. There is a balance to be struck here. It would be no good sending Wilson on loan to Barcelona for example. Risk vs reward. Simple as that. Better team means higher risk but better rewards.
 
Elliott said:
They absolutely shouldn't be somewhere they'd get games even if they didn't put the effort in each and every day, as that simply wouldn't prepare them for life at United. Finding the right club for the right player is tricky beeswax.
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I don't disagree with that. In fact that is exactly what im saying. It's very tricky. Hence it requires effort. Effort that our recent loan placements show is not currently being made.
 
Ringo 07 said:
I think Janko, M.Keane and Lawrence will all become handy squad players....one out of them may become a first teamer one day but it's hard to say.......Wilson looks great too and could have a huge future but it will be a long time before he gets anywhere near our first team......a couple of years ago the likes of Larnell Cole, Tunnicliffe, Lingard, Daehli and Will Keane etc were being hyped up as certainties to make our first 11 eventually and it never quite turned out that way
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That's bullshit.

In the past four years or so, the youngsters which have been more or less labelled as certainties by the MAJORITY have been Pogba, Ravel, Januzaj and to less extent Daehli. Will Keane got an horrific injury and that's the only reason why he didn't make it.

Btw, I know I'm making a lot of assumption but that class of 2011 were a special bunch.

Pogba is a star. Ravel will be a star if he gets his head right. Both the Keanes and Lingard will be premier league level players. Cole, Tunners, Amos will be regular championship players. I don't think we'll see a batch like that for a long time. Could've been Fergie's lasting legacy on the club.
 
KM said:
I don't think we'll see a batch like that for a long time. Could've been Fergie's lasting legacy on the club.
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I see no reason why the current level of talent production will dip. That generation wasn't a one-off so much as the first pay-off after a concerted campaign to improve our academy set-up (Meulensteen's arrival was just one part of that). Each new age group seems to be matching the ones before it in terms of promise, although obviously the outcomes are less predictable the younger you go.

Ok, so getting Morrison and Pogba in one group is impressive, but then Morrison has yet to actually prove anything. So in that sense the age group below has been just as productive in terms of top-level talents - Pogba in the first, Januzaj in the second. This year Wilson has looked like something very special indeed, and I'm confident that Pearson and Rothwell will be where he is now by this time next year.

Then you've got Pereira (big question marks, granted) and Harrop behind them; Mitchell, Borthwick-Jackson and Goss behind them, and Rashford behind them. Etc ad nauseam. The same pattern is true of the not so spectacular players too - Lawrence after Lingard, for example.

That, to me, looks more like a production line of top talent than one freak generation. Which makes sense, because the changes which led to the Pogba-Morrison generation are still in place, still doing their thing.
 
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