Top Tacklers - Now 2nd, but also Top Interceptors

[Ekeke]

Points? 3 from 3 matches. Poor although we did play 1 of the strongest teams.

Play with the ball? 11 shots per match which is 16th in the league. 53% of the ball which is 7th in the league so theres a disconnect between having and keeping the ball and creating a shooting oppertunity.

Defensive record? 5 conceeded in 3 matches. Poor although once again, we played 1 of the strongest teams.

Theres an awful lot to improve on...

But

Theres one thing that we're apparently the best at in all the top leagues

We average 24 tackles per game Its sadly not converted to having a good defensive record so far, but we do have a team of players winning the ball

So Mazaraoui and Casemiro are making an abnormal amount of tackles, then Mainoo and Amad are also helping with plenty of tackles. Mazaroui isnt recorded as having been dribbled past a single time so far. Dalot has the same but with half the amount of successful tackles.

Mainoo is complimenting this with 3.7 interceptions per 90 mins which is 6th most of any player in the top leagues who have played over 90 mins, and therefore isnt multiplying their stats up to 90 mins. Weigl is the only midfielder with more interceptions per 90 with 4, but hes played 2 matches rather than 3.

Despite this we've got a weak defensive record

Obviously the 2 Casemiro and 1 Mainoo mistake against Liverpool in poor areas led to goals

Then before that we had the set piece marking issue with Casemiro and McTominay not sticking to their task allowing Brighton the winner. Earlier we had Maguire not dealing with the balls across the box allowing Welbeck to get the first goal. So for the most part our 5 goals conceeded in 3 comes down to individual errors and we've been too poor in attack to outscore it.

Anyway credit to our players for fighting for the ball especially the 4 players first mentioned and hopefully we can stop the individual errors that are leading directly to goals against us whilst also improving our attacking play to have more shots.

 

[CallyRed]

We always used to have players who had a decent tackle. Gary Pallister, Nicky Butt etc.

 

[Oranges038]

We always used to have players who had a decent tackle. Gary Pallister, Nicky Butt etc.

Gary had a decent tackle alright.

 

[Cassidy]

Points? 3 from 3 matches. Poor although we did play 1 of the strongest teams.

Play with the ball? 11 shots per match which is 16th in the league. 53% of the ball which is 7th in the league so theres a disconnect between having and keeping the ball and creating a shooting oppertunity.

Defensive record? 5 conceeded in 3 matches. Poor although once again, we played 1 of the strongest teams.

Theres an awful lot to improve on...

But

Theres one thing that we're apparently the best at in all the top leagues

We average 24 tackles per game Its sadly not converted to having a good defensive record so far, but we do have a team of players winning the ball

So Mazaraoui and Casemiro are making an abnormal amount of tackles, then Mainoo and Amad are also helping with plenty of tackles. Mazaroui isnt recorded as having been dribbled past a single time so far. Dalot has the same but with half the amount of successful tackles.

Mainoo is complimenting this with 3.7 interceptions per 90 mins which is 6th most of any player in the top leagues who have played over 90 mins, and therefore isnt multiplying their stats up to 90 mins. Weigl is the only midfielder with more interceptions per 90 with 4, but hes played 2 matches rather than 3.

Despite this we've got a weak defensive record

Obviously the 2 Casemiro and 1 Mainoo mistake against Liverpool in poor areas led to goals

Then before that we had the set piece marking issue with Casemiro and McTominay not sticking to their task allowing Brighton the winner. Earlier we had Maguire not dealing with the balls across the box allowing Welbeck to get the first goal. So for the most part our 5 goals conceeded in 3 comes down to individual errors and we've been too poor in attack to outscore it.

Anyway credit to our players for fighting for the ball especially the 4 players first mentioned and hopefully we can stop the individual errors that are leading directly to goals against us whilst also improving our attacking play to have more shots.

Adding Ugarte to this!

Its noticable when you watch the matches too, we are much more aggressive in trying to win the ball back, and the pressing is more cohesive than last season. Against Brighton we could not sustain it for 90 minutes though.
We were really poor with the ball against Liverpool and we really need to improve our final pass, and finishing

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Look at the 19 other teams in that top 20 tacklers league. Is there a single quality team in there?

Surely the amount of tackles made is massively influenced by how many tackles we need to make? And we're in an unusual situation of having better players than most other teams who need to make a lot of tackles. Hence we're top of that table. As a metric for where we're at, it's as much negative as positive. If anything, more negative than positive.

 

[ShinjiNinja26]

Not the greatest stat to be topping, if we’re making so many tackles then it means the opposition have the ball more often than not. Just highlights how terrible we are at controlling games and retaining possession. Just look at the company we’re keeping in that table.

 

[SilentWitness]

Look at the 19 other teams in that top 20 tacklers league. Is there a single quality team in there?

Surely the amount of tackles made is massively influenced by how many tackles we need to make? And we're in an unusual situation of having better players than most other teams who need to make a lot of tackles. Hence we're top of that table. As a metric for where we're at, it's as much negative as positive. If anything, more negative than positive.

Yeah, should probably be compared with how much possession your team has. We (Everton) for example would be expected to be high because we set up in a manner that means we are chasing the game and opponents and trying to win the ball back in all areas of the pitch.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Not the greatest stat to be topping, if we’re making so many tackles then it means the opposition have the ball more often than not. Just highlights how terrible we are at controlling games and retaining possession. Just look at the company we’re keeping in that table.

It's a little more complicated than that, because only 6 PL teams have had higher average possession than us, yet 18 teams are making less tackles than us.

 

[didz]

Look at the 19 other teams in that top 20 tacklers league. Is there a single quality team in there?

Surely the amount of tackles made is massively influenced by how many tackles we need to make? And we're in an unusual situation of having better players than most other teams who need to make a lot of tackles. Hence we're top of that table. As a metric for where we're at, it's as much negative as positive. If anything, more negative than positive.

I wouldn't say it's a negative. Last season we had three main technical areas we needed to improve: getting the ball, having the ball, and using the ball. Or, to put it another way, "fecking everything."

So we're one-third of the way there in no time at all. Pop the champers!

 

[ShinjiNinja26]

It's a little more complicated than that, because only 6 PL teams have had higher average possession than us, yet 18 teams are making less tackles than us.

I think that’s down to the fact we pass it around the back a lot, so tend to have a lot of harmless possession that the opposition are happy to concede. Its when we try and progress it through the thirds that’s when it breaks down and we get constant turnovers in possession in the middle and opponents areas of the park.

 

[BuzzKillington]

Gary had a decent tackle alright.

Haha, Hayley McQueen giving pallisters bulge the side eye while she was telling off the caller.

 

[Scandi Red]

Surely the amount of tackles made is massively influenced by how many tackles we need to make?

"If I have to make a tackle, then I've already made a mistake."

- Abraham Lincoln

 

[andersj]

Last year, the teams on top of this stat was Palace, Everton and Wolves. The team who made the fewest was Man City.

The season before it was Leeds, Chelsea and Southampton who «won it». Two of them went down. Chelsea was terrible. Man City and Arsenal the fewest.

I think if you look at it historically, it is really not a stat you wanna «win».

 

[Oranges038]

Haha, Hayley McQueen giving pallisters bulge the side eye while she was telling off the caller.

She definitely has more than one look.

 

[Smores]

If we filter it by area of the pitch it's only tackles in the defensive third we're top, where you might expect it was up front.

The stats for this season so far mainly show what you'd expect, we mainly have high possession in the backline, get tackled a lot despite not progressing it very high, make a lot of recovery tackles in our own defence as a result. Nothing positive that's for sure.

 

[DWelbz19]

It's a little more complicated than that, because only 6 PL teams have had higher average possession than us, yet 18 teams are making less tackles than us.

Really illustrates how pinball our style is. Wonder if there's any further possession breakdown to show the areas we hold it most and where we lose it most. I'm inclined to agree with @ShinjiNinja26 - we probably retain well in our own half and then our ambitious back to front passing through the middle causes turnover city with a lot of tackles to win it back aggressively.

 

[Dominos]

Look at the 19 other teams in that top 20 tacklers league. Is there a single quality team in there?

Surely the amount of tackles made is massively influenced by how many tackles we need to make? And we're in an unusual situation of having better players than most other teams who need to make a lot of tackles. Hence we're top of that table. As a metric for where we're at, it's as much negative as positive. If anything, more negative than positive.

This.

Most of our problems stem from atrocious ball retention and inability to keep possession of a football.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

If we filter it by area of the pitch it's only tackles in the defensive third we're top, where you might expect it was up front.

The stats for this season so far mainly show what you'd expect, we mainly have high possession in the backline, get tackled a lot despite not progressing it very high, make a lot of recovery tackles in our own defence as a result. Nothing positive that's for sure.

 

[Glorio]

Haha, Hayley McQueen giving pallisters bulge the side eye while she was telling off the caller.

Who was sniggering?!

That's the thing with live calls isn't it? You have no control or clue about the nutcases at the other end, and they don't even need to show their faces

 

[Ekeke]

We're now being out tackled by Monaco who average 23.1 per game to our 22.3 per game in2nd place

We do average 2 more interceptions than them though

Thehy are also top of their league by 2 points...

Edit - Speaking of interceptions, we're now the leading team for interceptions in the top leagues with 12.6 ahead of Everton 2nd with 11.6

Lisandro 2.8 per match, Dalot 2.1 per match and Mainoo 2.0 per match are the main reasons for that

 

[Ekeke]

Not the greatest stat to be topping, if we’re making so many tackles then it means the opposition have the ball more often than not. Just highlights how terrible we are at controlling games and retaining possession. Just look at the company we’re keeping in that table.

Monaco have 58.8% of the ball, the 4th most in the French league and lead the table. They are the only team making more tackles than us

Ive seen that same sentiment expressed for many years but its often not the case. The best teams who have a lot of the ball win the ball a lot as well, its one of the reasons they have so much of the ball. Its just that tackling is one of several ways to win the ball and some of the top teams are relying more on forcing errors or stealing the ball with pressing which may come under picking up loose balls

 

[GoodTimes]

Linford Christie

 

[ifightdragons]

Look at the 19 other teams in that top 20 tacklers league. Is there a single quality team in there?

Surely the amount of tackles made is massively influenced by how many tackles we need to make? And we're in an unusual situation of having better players than most other teams who need to make a lot of tackles. Hence we're top of that table. As a metric for where we're at, it's as much negative as positive. If anything, more negative than positive.

This.

Being top tacklers and interceptors in the league is not a positive thing.

It highlights our constant need for making such tackles and interceptions, which comes as a result of us not being able to control possession.

It's a symptom of our chaotic style, not a sign of success.

 

[Grand Vizier]

This.

Being top tacklers and interceptors in the league is not a positive thing.

It highlights our constant need for making such tackles and interceptions, which comes as a result of us not being able to control possession.

It's a symptom of our chaotic style, not a sign of success.

Casemiro, Fernandinho and Kanté says hello!

This isn't entirely correct. Even if you dominate possession, there will be plenty of times where the opposition will have the ball, so if you have a player who is excellent at reading the game and intercepting a pass or an excellent tackler to win possession back, that is nothing but positive. I do agree that it is more likely for a player to top this stat if they don't dominate possession, though, but a good example is Ugarte under PSG who was top tackler and interceptor for PSG despite dominating possession, precisely because he is so good at it.

 

[sullydnl]

Look at the 19 other teams in that top 20 tacklers league. Is there a single quality team in there?

Surely the amount of tackles made is massively influenced by how many tackles we need to make? And we're in an unusual situation of having better players than most other teams who need to make a lot of tackles. Hence we're top of that table. As a metric for where we're at, it's as much negative as positive. If anything, more negative than positive.

There's quite a lot of truth in that.

Having said that, a few years ago you made a thread highlighting the low number of tackles among our attacking players, at a time when they were (correctly) being criticised for a lack of workrate and application. In a team that averaged approximately the same amount of possession we have so far this season.

If you combined our key midfielders/attackers from that season and this season so far, and rank them in terms of tackles per 90, it looks like this:

Ugarte - 5.45
Casemiro - 3.66
Antony - 3.33
Fred - 3.05
Diallo - 3.02
Mount - 2.94
Mainoo - 2.46
Bruno - 2.32
McTominay - 2.15
Matic - 2.03

Looking at those names, I think a big difference is simply that we've added more players with the stamina, workrate and application to put in the sort of graft we were complaining our players weren't a few seasons ago.

And even if it's a bad thing that they're having to work that hard under ETH, it still probably bodes well for the future under a more competent manager that we've at least increased the squad's capacity to do so.

 

[Chipper]

Casemiro, Fernandinho and Kanté says hello!

This isn't entirely correct. Even if you dominate possession, there will be plenty of times where the opposition will have the ball, so if you have a player who is excellent at reading the game and intercepting a pass or an excellent tackler to win possession back, that is nothing but positive. I do agree that it is more likely for a player to top this stat if they don't dominate possession, though, but a good example is Ugarte under PSG who was top tackler and interceptor for PSG despite dominating possession, precisely because he is so good at it.

Is Ugarte great at tackling?

https://fbref.com/en/comps/13/2023-2024/defense/2023-2024-Ligue-1-Stats

The most tackles attempted in the league if you go sort by the Tkl column under tackles. 3rd most tackles won (Tkw). Sounds really good.

Switch to Tkl% under the challenges column which is the % of dribblers tackled and he's ranked 109th out of 204 players, succesful less than half the time with 48.3% of attempts.

Maybe his coach would have liked him reduce the number of attempted tackles when players are dribbling while upping the success rate? Perhaps he overcomitts and sells himself at times?

 

[Grand Vizier]

Is Ugarte great at tackling?

https://fbref.com/en/comps/13/2023-2024/defense/2023-2024-Ligue-1-Stats

The most tackles attempted in the league if you go sort by the Tkl column under tackles. 3rd most tackles won (Tkw). Sounds really good.

Switch to Tkl% under the challenges column which is the % of dribblers tackled and he's ranked 109th out of 204 players, succesful less than half the time with 48.3% of attempts.

Maybe his coach would have liked him reduce the number of attempted tackles while upping the success rate? Perhaps he overcomitts and sells himself?

A player that tackles often also fails tackles. Not a shocker.

Haaland misses most big chances in the league. Is he a shit finisher?

 

[Chipper]

A player that tackles often also fails tackles. Not a shocker.

Haaland misses most big chances in the league. Is he a shit finisher?

That's irrelavent when talking about success rate. You use success rate to standardise things.

The equivalent would be Haaland missing a high percentage of his chances, not Haaland missing a large number of chances.

 

[ifightdragons]

Casemiro, Fernandinho and Kanté says hello!

This isn't entirely correct. Even if you dominate possession, there will be plenty of times where the opposition will have the ball, so if you have a player who is excellent at reading the game and intercepting a pass or an excellent tackler to win possession back, that is nothing but positive. I do agree that it is more likely for a player to top this stat if they don't dominate possession, though, but a good example is Ugarte under PSG who was top tackler and interceptor for PSG despite dominating possession, precisely because he is so good at it.

If we're talking about individual stats, like you are doing here, that's another discussion.

But the case in point was our entire team's combined stats.

A dominating team can absolutely have a top tackler, like you described.

But if a team is making the most tackles in the league, it's highly likely you're struggling.

 

[sullydnl]

succesful less than half the time with 48.3% of attempts

For context, Kante's average in the same statistic across 7 seasons at Chelsea was 43.1%. And Casemiro's average across 10 seasons at Madrid was 43.6%.

 

[RedC]

Having high tackles isn't as great when it's due to reckless pressing, exposing huge gaps that teams regularly take advantage of when the ball is subsequently lost.

 

[Chipper]

For context, Kante's average in the same statistic across 7 seasons at Chelsea was 43.1%. And Casemiro's average across 10 seasons at Madrid was 43.6%.

You're right about me missing a big chunk of context, should only be comparing him to midfielders and all the leaders in that stat are defenders. Lots of forwards attempt to dribble past defenders in non-optimal situations where they run down a blind alley and are crowded out, often because they can't see anyone in a good position to pass to. Might as well try something in those circumstances is what they're likely thiking. It should make defenders success rates when tackiling dribblers higher and midifelders should really only be compared to midifelders.

On Kante I'd say he did drop off slightly as a player around the time FBREF started keeping these stats, but yes I doubt at his peak he'd have been streets ahead on that one vs Ugarte based off hte numbers that are there.

Still, I do think you need to look at success rates to provide context to total number of x whatever that may be. The reverse is true as well, you need totals to give context to percentages otherwise you might just be looking a very low sample size.

Mayeb we should look out for Joris Chotard from the Ligue 1 stats? A midfielder with a slightly better succes rate, attempting a lot as well. Only 23 like Ugarte! Not for us to buy, just in general.

 

[Marwood]

What these stats can put to bed is that we're a lazy team.

Effort isn't the problem.

 

[Grand Vizier]

That's irrelavent when talking about success rate. You use success rate to standardise things.

The equivalent would be Haaland missing a high percentage of his chances, not Haaland missing a large number of chances.

Doesn't he? His conversion rate was around 22% last season, so that's missing a lot of his chances. I'm not saying he is a poor finisher. This is normal for strikers, and it is entirely normal to fail a good amount of tackles, especially for high volume tacklers whose primary role is to win possession back.

I really just think these statistics are a perfect example of how useless they can be in isolation. You've already seen the examples of Kanté and Casemiro being similar, and I'm sure if you looked you'd find Fernandinho, Palhinha, Matic and Mascherano also have similar stat. Ugarte is widely recognised to be one of the best tacklers in world football at the moment, even if he is going to fail some tackles and look silly.

 

[Chipper]

Doesn't he? His conversion rate was around 22% last season, so that's missing a lot of his chances. I'm not saying he is a poor finisher. This is normal for strikers, and it is entirely normal to fail a good amount of tackles, especially for high volume tacklers whose primary role is to win possession back.

I really just think these statistics are a perfect example of how useless they can be in isolation. You've already seen the examples of Kanté and Casemiro being similar, and I'm sure if you looked you'd find Fernandinho, Palhinha, Matic and Mascherano also have similar stat. Ugarte is widely recognised to be one of the best tacklers in world football at the moment, even if he is going to fail some tackles and look silly.

The thing with Haaland and his percentage of chances missed not looking so bad is what I was talking about. You compare his percentage to other players, you don't look at raw numbers or just percentage. Without it 22% might sound bad. It's not bad at all when you look at others. Then we have xG to use a marker for forwards too to assess the quality of the chances. Nothing like that exists for tackles, prediciting the likelhood of an attempted tackle being successful before it's made. Maybe one day.

That's what I was trying to do with Ugarte, add the context of comparing his successful tackling rate of dribblers to the other players in Ligue 1 just like we can with Haaland comparing him to other players on finishing.

My big huge gaping error that I've since noticed and posted about is that I was comparing him to all players in Ligue 1 last season and not just midfielders. Defenders shine in that area easily and it makes sense. Pep Guardiola used to talk about using the edges of the pitch, i.e. the touchlines and the goallines as a defender and he right. If a player is running with the ball near a line then he obviously can't go that way or he runs out of play with the ball. You've got him trapped, reducing his options and it makes tackling him easier.

Tackling in the middle of the pitch where someone dribbling can run in any direction with more space is harder and that's where midfielders make more tackles.

So yeah, massive balls up by me originally comparing him to all players including defenders.

Agree on the isolation thing, was actually trying not to by looking at the tackle percentage stats instead of just the raw numbers but then fell into doing it anyway by not comparing Ugarte to the specific set of players I shoud've been doing.

 

[Ekeke]

We have 2.2% more possession than last season.

We were 7th for average amount of tackles and 9th for average amount of interceptions and teams averaged 17.6 shots against us per game, 2nd in the league only to West Ham who averaged 17.8 shots against

We average 12.1 shots against us this season, which is 15th most in the league. Far better.

So again it goes to show that winning the ball the most in the league doesnt mean we have less of the ball or that its a bad thing, at least compared to last season and in terms of making progress from that point.

We average just under 2 less shots than last season and arent scoring many goals.
Thats the problem. That and when we do conceed, we have conceeded 2+ goals in each of those league games. So we crumble, we dont conceed a goal. Theres always more than 1 if we dont keep a clean sheet

Barcelona and Liverpool had high stats for pressing and winning the ball back that way a couple of seasons ago when iirc whoscored used to have pressing stats, Salah in particular was one of the best. Thats just another way to win the ball and I dont have those stats for this season, but I would imagine that both sides continue to do that well and would rank quite highly with it.

I did find that City had by far the most high turnovers last season with 416 and 2nd being Spurs with 396 and City also had 13 goals come from those high turnovers again top of the rankings which was all on opta.

There are always lots of oppertunities to win the ball regardless of how much you have it. Tackles, interceptions, picking up loose balls, presses and turnovers, winning aerial challenges are all just different ways you can achieve winning the ball. Pressing and high turnovers are an advantage because of where you are winning the ball in an attacking situation, but a tackle or interception in the same area is the same thing.

We are 5th for most tackles in the attacking third, 3rd in the midfield third and 3rd in the defensive third.

 

[justsomebloke]

Look at the 19 other teams in that top 20 tacklers league. Is there a single quality team in there?

Surely the amount of tackles made is massively influenced by how many tackles we need to make? And we're in an unusual situation of having better players than most other teams who need to make a lot of tackles. Hence we're top of that table. As a metric for where we're at, it's as much negative as positive. If anything, more negative than positive.

This. Good, effective defensive teams generally are not frequent tacklers. Like Maldini said "if I have to make a tackle, I've already made a mistake". If the tackler fails, as rven the best often do, he's taken himself out of the action for nothing. And even if he succeeds, there's a high likelihood the ball is not won. Sometimes it's necessary, but it's not a "the more the better" thing.