Draws feel like a bit of a cop out though. Ok if they lead onto something afterwards (Bryan/omega, anything come from that draw yet?) but I guess we’ll have to wait and see what comes next.
Television Tho Prop Grops Throps
- Thread starter Big-Red
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What came out of it was Hangman beating Omega, and telling Danielson he's better than him because of it because he only got the draw. Then we got this match where Danielson went the distance with Page. Which suggests they are the same level, with Hangman on top when the time limit came. So now despite Hangman doing something Danielson was unable to do we should be thinking they are pretty much neck and neck. So onto the next part of the story
A few added things
1) New Japan does draws, because they also do longterm booking where storylines can last years
2)
Its not a new idea, its something that has been done successfully a lot of times. WWE fans arent used to it because WWE doesnt tend to do it because it doesnt play into how often and quickly they change directions. But if you're a company who is not going to chop and change week to week then its okay. Afterall Hangman himself is proof of AEW's longterm booking
He had the first match for the title, lost to Jericho. Rebuilt himself with Omega to be a tag champion, leading to eventually being the one to beat Omega for the title despite all the high profile names joining the company. And now he goes the distance was arguably the best wrestler in the world, especially now Omega has time off. So that should tell us that they are committed to telling the story over a long period of time and they arent going to decide in 2 weeks that they need to make Miro the champ because he has bigger muscles.
We got a 60 minute fantastic match on free television. The draw means we get another great match. So I think its anything but a cop out. For me a cop out would be Hangman beats Danielson in a 15 minute match with a buckshot lariat or 15 minute match then lame distraction finish. If you do that theres no reason for another match. Or interference DQ finish so theres another match involving more people.
I'd much rather see another singles match where the stakes are raised because we're part way through a story. If Hangman beat Danielson straight in 15 mins, there would have to be a different challenger which hasnt been built up, or they'd have another match which wouldnt make sense if he'd already beat him
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To be fair you have literally made this up in your head?!
No, just following the story. Page said it to Danielson when Danielson confronted him. Was the first thing he said
Got January Day One, maybe they will give him the title then? (More chance of hell freezing over)
For Owens, it sounds like he got great money to sign up. If I had to guess I'd say he will continue in the same spot around the top and in title contention but I dont see him beating Big E for the title. Think the Big E title reign will last quite a while unless Lashley becomes number 1 contender and they switch it back and forth
Yeah, big money really, considering he isn't or hasn't been doing a great deal for a while.
Kinda my point though re Danielson/omega. That story just stopped and then we’re onto something separate with a “I beat him therefore I’m better than you” for hangman…which is fine. But is this going to lead to more Danielson/hangman/omega (don’t know how long he’s out for) stuff with those 3 contending for the title for the foreseeable?
Draws are all well and good but to Danielson draw his two matches against people of any note in fairly close proximity seems a bit…meh. Ok good match, maybe what’s to come will build on it, just a bit of a disappointing end in my view.
I think that might be one of the reasons why he's offered a lot of money. You can go elsewhere and be more creatively fulfilled, or you can stay here and get paid a huge amount of money to continue doing what you're doing. Some people are happy to stay under those conditions, more money for his family and hes obviously happy enough with what he's doing. And if one day Vince doesn't want to pay him, he can leave and still do the other stuff.
For Danielson it was about the wrestling, the matches, the creativity and not the money. And for Punk it was about not having to go back to WWE.
Theres also less and less space for everyone to do everything they want in AEW. Theres already great talent we don't always see on Dynamite. They could have stronger match on Rampage, and have stronger cards on Dark but it doesnt seem like they are wanting to deviate from what they are already doing with the development and padding record matches as well as the featured ones. Plus someone has to lose, right now the likes of Pac and Andrade might not be on every week, but maybe thats better than losing a bunch of matches to the guys that are being pushed ahead of them. So theres pros and cons either way
You can pick it up whenever. 2 years from now the history between Hangman and Omega is still there.
No it’s the rest of it. A baby face will not be boasting about a draw or holding over anybodys head. That’s why a draw doesn’t do anybody any good. Daniel literally beat all his friends up and Page couldn’t get revenge for them. The story is that nobody in AEW can beat Daniel
It's what I miss from old school wrestling.
Guys would have feuds and years later those feuds would get mentioned and still mattered if they crossed paths etc.
WWE just decided Entertainment of the hour was more important than logic and history and now it really is just a circus show travelling around the country, which is ironic.
Thats a strange story you've made up. Doesnt explain why Bryan Danielson wants the title, which he doesnt have, couldnt win and Hangman Page has it
In agreement with @Ekeke
WWE got rid of long term for about 20 years
Draws can be great as we've seen in Japan
And it's rare in aew
What five in 2 or something years?
WWE got rid of long term for about 20 years
Draws can be great as we've seen in Japan
And it's rare in aew
What five in 2 or something years?
It was a great match and really stiff as well. Very NJPW. It ending in a draw doesn't bother me in the slightest and I find the criticism a little odd.
Ekeke is actually right this time. Either one of those guys win clean and you kill a golden goose on TV for no real reason. The draw fits in with the Omega one. 3 guys all on the same level there or thereabouts. I do think they messed up the timing on the Danielson v Omega draw as I reckon that Danielson was supposed to have him just as the time ran out whereas here it was Hangman who had the upper hand at the bell.
Ekeke is actually right this time. Either one of those guys win clean and you kill a golden goose on TV for no real reason. The draw fits in with the Omega one. 3 guys all on the same level there or thereabouts. I do think they messed up the timing on the Danielson v Omega draw as I reckon that Danielson was supposed to have him just as the time ran out whereas here it was Hangman who had the upper hand at the bell.
He didn’t lose neither. That’s my point. This entire build up of Bryan beating a jobber stable only to have the champ not actually get revenge anyway. If two stars can’t afford to lose then don’t book them in a match. Now it’s circular logic of a baby face champion somehow boasting about not being able to beat the heel challenger that spent 6 weeks beating up his stable mates so all sense of that revenge angle is lost.
The ratings just out tells the tale of how heatless this has ended up quite frankly. Lowest demo since May. This has not worked imo
Ratings in the moment tell you very little about whether or not something will work in the long term though. Word has gotten out about the match, it is getting its hype from a lot of people in the industry, by the time it comes around again there will be a lot more eyes on it.
I've got no problem with the draw, and I think it was a quality match. I just don't think it was necessary to have an hour long match. Could have told the same story with same sort of ending in half the time, just seems to be doing it for the sake of doing it.
Didn't the ratings grow each quarter bar one as the match was on going and peaked at the end?
Which could mean people thought it would be last rather than first?
Meh, tough crowd.
Anyway, can't wait to see Danielson in NJPW. Surely this is happening in 2022? I know one of the reasons he signed with AEW was the flexibility of being able to work with other promotions so I reckon this is also a nod to say "I can do those matches too".
I honestly believe if he stays fit for the next few years he goes down as the goat. He can do it all.
Anyway, can't wait to see Danielson in NJPW. Surely this is happening in 2022? I know one of the reasons he signed with AEW was the flexibility of being able to work with other promotions so I reckon this is also a nod to say "I can do those matches too".
I honestly believe if he stays fit for the next few years he goes down as the goat. He can do it all.
And clearly the only way to resolve these draws is a triple threat iron man match at the next PPV with a returning Kenny Omega.
Spoilers : Hangman beats both.
Spoilers : Hangman beats both.
Hangman vs Danielson was absolutely incredible. Every bit as good as Omega vs Danielson was. They left me wanting more.
I dunno, I think if Hangman wins via a roll-up, then Bryan doesn't really lose anything - and Hangman gains a big win in his first match as champion.
yeah, it becomes excessive for no real reason.
Having said that, I hate screwy WWE non-finishes, and they often happen after 10/20 minutes, so I think regardless its just not a booking style I enjoy. Especially in your "Big" matches.
It's hilarious to see the double standards. AEW booked themselves into a corner.
If WWE had a draw after an Iron Man match there would be no posts defending it. Even less so if one of participants was a newly crowned world champ.
If WWE had a draw after an Iron Man match there would be no posts defending it. Even less so if one of participants was a newly crowned world champ.
not gonna lie....
It wasn't an iron match mate. Hope that helps.
You know what I mean. An hour long match.
I know what you mean but I don't think your strawman argument is valid at all.
As I've said before, besides Ekeke and some hardcore WWE zealots most of us couldn't care less which organisation it's in, we just appreciate a good wrestling match. Yet again this smacks of impatience from people in the same way the criticism came in for Hangman losing his title shot a few months before he actually did win it. That was proven to be a load of fuss over nothing and I'm sure there will be a payoff to this further down the road. Next time they face it will probably be on a PPV with a no draw stipulation. Like I said, the 3 way iron man match when Kenny returns is basically an open goal for them as a main event.
I'm not dismissing the match, I'm pointing out the hypocrisy. Forget the length of the match, if WWE had their champion drawing matches after they'd just won it everyone would be screaming they can't book strong champions etc. Look back in this thread or anywhere wrassling is discussed. WWE and AEW are not treated equal.
It's fine to admit AEW have made a hash of this, and the workers saved it by putting on a stormer. They've had to turn Bryan heel, they've had to have a screwy finish. You can claim the long term plan is a Omega/Hangman/Danielson triple threat, but how long until that comes ro fruition? What next for Hamgman and Bryan? Is Bryan going to move back to outwrestling the rest of the midcard? They clearly plan to put the strap on him at some point so continuing this feud now seems counterproductive as the it means Hangman's story ends on a wet fart.
Honestly I think this hypocrisy is in your own head. Certainly from my point of view. I watch something I like, I say so and vice versa. I know there are people in this thread that treat Pro wrestling with the same tribalism usually reserved for actual sports but they're probably best ignored.
As for your second part I don't think you need to worry about that. Criticise it if it happens. I think they've earned enough trust in their booking so far to be given that benefit of the doubt.
Re: the heel/face dynamic with Danielson. All he has to do is go out next week and say he respects Hangman, shake his hand and he's a face again. No biggie. Whether he does it or not however....I think he actually enjoys being booed more.
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Danielson is a heel also cos Mosley is out. I'm sure the plan was for him to win and turn heel
So yeah maybe this wasn't the long term plan but aew gets more benefit of the doubt than wwe due to history especially since aew started
Wwe hardly pay off long term stuff because they drop most of it. It's the rare occasions they do it which surprises people
Aew does it so often that people expect it and are patient to see where it goes
Of course there's going to be a difference in expectations in the two companies
So yeah maybe this wasn't the long term plan but aew gets more benefit of the doubt than wwe due to history especially since aew started
Wwe hardly pay off long term stuff because they drop most of it. It's the rare occasions they do it which surprises people
Aew does it so often that people expect it and are patient to see where it goes
Of course there's going to be a difference in expectations in the two companies
I love you
Btw farm boy baby face Brock is the best
The Hangman/Bryan stuff points to a bigger issue IMHO. My take, as a hardcore casual fan (by that, I mean someone who is very invested in the ‘sports entertainment’ style done well) is that TV matches shouldn’t be too long. It feels that each match on Dynamite goes over 15 mins, even between lower carders with no story between them.
For me, you keep all TV matches to 10 mins max. It’s OK to have your top guys kill a lower carder in 3 mins. Any match over 10 mins should 1) be the main event, 2) have lots of story between the opponents or 3) be between the very best workers.
Casual fans prefer quick fire stuff. Save the big matches for PPVs where the audience are really engaged. TV needs to be used as a way to grow your audience. AEW, despite having a far better product than WWE, is cringe because it plays to the r/SquaredCircle nerds so constantly self reinforces as ‘OMFG BEST THING EVAAA’ despite the actual numbers not bearing this out.
Pure wrestling bell to bell doesn’t sell. What sells is characters, moments, stories etc. AEW, to its credit, has a lot of these too but undermines itself with the overly pandering to the purist, geekdom crew. Consumer satisfaction amongst its small base is always super high but its growth will always be capped as new/casual fans are made to sit through LONG matches they don’t care about.
For me, you keep all TV matches to 10 mins max. It’s OK to have your top guys kill a lower carder in 3 mins. Any match over 10 mins should 1) be the main event, 2) have lots of story between the opponents or 3) be between the very best workers.
Casual fans prefer quick fire stuff. Save the big matches for PPVs where the audience are really engaged. TV needs to be used as a way to grow your audience. AEW, despite having a far better product than WWE, is cringe because it plays to the r/SquaredCircle nerds so constantly self reinforces as ‘OMFG BEST THING EVAAA’ despite the actual numbers not bearing this out.
Pure wrestling bell to bell doesn’t sell. What sells is characters, moments, stories etc. AEW, to its credit, has a lot of these too but undermines itself with the overly pandering to the purist, geekdom crew. Consumer satisfaction amongst its small base is always super high but its growth will always be capped as new/casual fans are made to sit through LONG matches they don’t care about.
Had this MJF promo on YouTube pop up on my timeline from 6 years ago when he was on WWE tough enough.
Didn't the ratings breakdown show that more people tuned in the longer the match went though? And it peaked to over 1m at the height of the match near the end and the end?
https://www.f4wonline.com/wwe-news/roh-womens-world-champion-rok-c-part-wwe-tryouts-363111
If they're going to use her they should sign her, shes good
If they're going to use her they should sign her, shes good
Gone into my wrestling match ratings spreadsheet (I know you’ve all got one), and sorted average rating per wrestler from highest to lowest, filtered by number of matches, and…I’ve got Robert Roode in sixth place.
Something has gone terribly wrong.
Something has gone terribly wrong.
You may well be right.
I do think there’s some weight in the argument that it’s pointless playing to the ‘casual’ fan because they aren’t really channel hopping these days due to the vast amount of streaming and other viewing options.
It makes business sense to play to a strong core audience and then have moments that can go viral, i.e. Bad Bunny, CM Punk’s return, the ring collapsing under Braun and Big Show’s weight etc. Whereas, back in the day, it was about attracting eyeballs and keeping them through the duration of the show (the whole philosophy behind Crash TV).
Most of the engaged wrestling fans love the pure in ring stuff. The ‘casuals’ have checked out in their droves or only engage sporadically, i.e. kids. Therefore, an Attitude era style product today would fall on its arse as it’d turn off the purists but the casuals it’s aimed at are long gone and not coming back en masse due to the much changed nature of entertainment consumption.
For me, NXT 2.0 is way more interesting than its previous incarnation. 1.0 Takeovers were amazing for what they were but weekly shows were just so dull. However, 2.0 is being panned and ratings are sinking because the already invested audience are put off by the short matches, lower quality technical wrestling and lack of indie super fed feel that was 1.0.
So basically I’m contradicting my earlier point to some degree.