This forum has divided you Mancs........

[Gillespie]

......basically into 2 camps.Those who see the current problems as a blip which will all come good when you get Keane ,Butt,Beckham etc back and you start to play again to your 'true potential' and those who see more serious problems which can only be resolved by a clear out (the defence is at fault,Giggs is over the top etc etc)

Well,it won't come as any surprise that I tend to believe the current problems are not going to go away and you will continue to struggle.Easy to confuse symptoms with weaknesses,but as I predicted in my 'All Good Things come to an End' topic which I posted on 22-8-02 (still there to be read ,for those interested),the real problem is a combination of gaffs by SAF (Veron,Forlan,Blanc,Stam,selling Yorke and Cole with no adequate replacement)and Keane's egomania which I do believe has undermined morale in the dressing room.At the same time,it's true to say both Beckham and Giggs look poor all too often.

So ,only time will say who's right....but so far I think my analysis of 3 months ago looks spot on.

As for the positive thinkers out there,how will you feel if Newcastle beat you saturday?(As it happens,I think they have an excellent opportunity to take 3 points at OT.)

And for those who find comfort in your CL form...let's face it...so far you've only played a bunch of no-hopers.

One last thought,when SAF goes (sooner I predict than later)do any of you think Mark Hughes has a chance??He's done pretty good so far for Wales and even Giggs plays for them now.

 

[Stanley Road]

I need 2 tickets for the Arsenal - Ajax game at The Library next year

How can i get them??????????????

 

[other red]

Originally posted by Gillespie:
<strong>......basically into 2 camps.Those who see the current problems as a blip which will all come good when you get Keane ,Butt,Beckham etc back and you start to play again to your 'true potential' and those who see more serious problems which can only be resolved by a clear out (the defence is at fault,Giggs is over the top etc etc)

Well,it won't come as any surprise that I tend to believe the current problems are not going to go away and you will continue to struggle.Easy to confuse symptoms with weaknesses,but as I predicted in my 'All Good Things come to an End' topic which I posted on 22-8-02 (still there to be read ,for those interested),the real problem is a combination of gaffs by SAF (Veron,Forlan,Blanc,Stam,selling Yorke and Cole with no adequate replacement)and Keane's egomania which I do believe has undermined morale in the dressing room.At the same time,it's true to say both Beckham and Giggs look poor all too often.

So ,only time will say who's right....but so far I think my analysis of 3 months ago looks spot on.

As for the positive thinkers out there,how will you feel if Newcastle beat you saturday?(As it happens,I think they have an excellent opportunity to take 3 points at OT.)

And for those who find comfort in your CL form...let's face it...so far you've only played a bunch of no-hopers.

One last thought,when SAF goes (sooner I predict than later)do any of you think Mark Hughes has a chance??He's done pretty good so far for Wales and even Giggs plays for them now.</strong><hr></blockquote>

spot on lad !!! I bet Murt doesn't agree though

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />

 

[zXe]

Originally posted by other red:
<strong>

spot on lad !!! I bet Murt doesn't agree though

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

Yeah, I'm sure the real test will come when we play top class sides like Basle.
Nevermind last year's finalists.

 

[redfan]

Originally posted by Gillespie:
<strong>......basically into 2 camps.Those who see the current problems as a blip which will all come good when you get Keane ,Butt,Beckham etc back and you start to play again to your 'true potential' and those who see more serious problems which can only be resolved by a clear out (the defence is at fault,Giggs is over the top etc etc)

Well,it won't come as any surprise that I tend to believe the current problems are not going to go away and you will continue to struggle.Easy to confuse symptoms with weaknesses,but as I predicted in my 'All Good Things come to an End' topic which I posted on 22-8-02 (still there to be read ,for those interested),the real problem is a combination of gaffs by SAF (Veron,Forlan,Blanc,Stam,selling Yorke and Cole with no adequate replacement)and Keane's egomania which I do believe has undermined morale in the dressing room.At the same time,it's true to say both Beckham and Giggs look poor all too often.

So ,only time will say who's right....but so far I think my analysis of 3 months ago looks spot on.

As for the positive thinkers out there,how will you feel if Newcastle beat you saturday?(As it happens,I think they have an excellent opportunity to take 3 points at OT.)

And for those who find comfort in your CL form...let's face it...so far you've only played a bunch of no-hopers.

One last thought,when SAF goes (sooner I predict than later)do any of you think Mark Hughes has a chance??He's done pretty good so far for Wales and even Giggs plays for them now.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You put forward two arguments, and both have some credability, as for me I will wait and see what happens. But I ask you to look a little closer to home, every time Loonypool go through a rough patch exactly the same arguments appear on Kocktalk, no doubt you can look at any football forum and see the same things happen, that's football.
But you spoil your little piece by your paragraph about the CL, just tell me how did Loonypool fare, you seem to have overlooked that little incdent.

 

[SheDevil777]

I think Mark Hughes would make a superb manager!

Come on Sparky give us a go!

 

[Livvie]

Originally posted by SheDevil777:
<strong>I think Mark Hughes would make a superb manager!

Come on Sparky give us a go! </strong><hr></blockquote>

Sparky isn't ready for Manchester United.

 

[SheDevil777]

Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>

Sparky isn't ready for Manchester United.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I think Sparky is ready for anything! He is up for it with the right 'hungry' attitude! Watch this space!

 

[Gillespie]

Originally posted by Stanley Road:
<strong>I need 2 tickets for the Arsenal - Ajax game at The Library next year

How can i get them??????????????</strong><hr></blockquote>

Hmmm...................not easy...I'll ask around

 

[dicko]

Of course things aren't as good as they were two or three years ago. You and Liverpool have made up a lot of ground. I don't think Liverpool will win the league. I think they will fall away some time after Christmas.

As others have noted part of our problem has been concentrating on Europe. To win the premiership you need a strong squad. To win the Champions league you need a strong first eleven. This is often at the expense of the squad.

By concentrating on a good first team Fergie has made it difficult for us to get good cover. For example, we have six high quality midfielders (if you count Veron and Butt). Very few quality midfielders are willing to sign when they have those two and Beckham, Giggs, Scholes and Keane ahead of them. To sign someone better would cost 20-30 million for, perhaps, little improvement. We also have some very prommising young midfielders.

In central defence we have Ferdinand and Blanc, O'Shea looks good to replace Blanc in the near future. If a top quality central defender came in he might only delay O'Shea's development. Brown and Gary Neville can fill in if required. Goalkeepers cant be rotated and full backs are probably the least important players. I agree we are at least one forward short.

Several of our star players (Beckham and Giggs for starters) don't seem to have improved since 1999. They should now entering their best years but are no better than at age 25. Look at Nicky Butt's improvement and that is what usually happens.

I don't know why a team of European Champions is no longer playing at that level but there is not much between success and failure. We could easily have got nothing in 1999 but it was our greatest year. Last season we almost reached the European Cup final and a couple of results in the league could have seen us champions.

Some say we need a major clearout, I believe a few changes will do. We need another striker. If we solve that problem I think the old passion will return and we could have one of our long unbeaten/winning runs. If all our first teamers are fit we stand an excellent chance in Europe but the competition is very strong - at least six clubs have decent chances, especially with knockout QF, SF and final. If anyone but United, Arsenal or Liverpool win the league it will be a major shock.

 

[Gillespie]

Originally posted by redfan:
<strong>

You put forward two arguments, and both have some credability, as for me I will wait and see what happens. But I ask you to look a little closer to home, every time Loonypool go through a rough patch exactly the same arguments appear on Kocktalk, no doubt you can look at any football forum and see the same things happen, that's football.
But you spoil your little piece by your paragraph about the CL, just tell me how did Loonypool fare, you seem to have overlooked that little incdent.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Actually,as many on this site know.....I'm a Gooner,so hardly in a position to put the Scousers' view.What I will say is that it does take a few years of experience before you begin to do well in the CL....it was true for you Mancs (remember 0-4 at the Camp Nou?)and also for us.So it's part of the Scousers' learning process which they can build upon should they qualify next year (I think they will).But the question I posed has nothing to do with LFC or my team,Arsenal,but everything to do with Man Utd...but I do appreciate you are at least willing to concede some validity to my argument.

 

[redfan]

Originally posted by Gillespie:
<strong>

Actually,as many on this site know.....I'm a Gooner,so hardly in a position to put the Scousers' view.What I will say is that it does take a few years of experience before you begin to do well in the CL....it was true for you Mancs (remember 0-4 at the Camp Nou?)and also for us.So it's part of the Scousers' learning process which they can build upon should they qualify next year (I think they will).But the question I posed has nothing to do with LFC or my team,Arsenal,but everything to do with Man Utd...but I do appreciate you are at least willing to concede some validity to my argument.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Apologies for taking you for a dipper, I do accept that you make sound arguments, but as I say, I will wait until we have a full squad back in action before I cast any judgement.

 

[dicko]

Originally posted by Gillespie:
<strong>What I will say is that it does take a few years of experience before you begin to do well in the CL....it was true for you Mancs (remember 0-4 at the Camp Nou?)and also for us.</strong><hr></blockquote>

We struggled because of the limits on foreigners. We couldn't put out our best side. You struggled struggled because you were shit. Liverpool struggle because they still are.

 

[GiggsysGirl]

Originally posted by Gillespie:
<strong>Well,it won't come as any surprise that I tend to believe the current problems are not going to go away and you will continue to struggle.Easy to confuse symptoms with weaknesses,but as I predicted in my 'All Good Things come to an End' topic which I posted on 22-8-02 (still there to be read ,for those interested),the real problem is a combination of gaffs by SAF (Veron,Forlan,Blanc,Stam,selling Yorke and Cole with no adequate replacement)and Keane's egomania which I do believe has undermined morale in the dressing room.At the same time,it's true to say both Beckham and Giggs look poor all too often.

So ,only time will say who's right....but so far I think my analysis of 3 months ago looks spot on.

As for the positive thinkers out there,how will you feel if Newcastle beat you saturday?(As it happens,I think they have an excellent opportunity to take 3 points at OT.)

And for those who find comfort in your CL form...let's face it...so far you've only played a bunch of no-hopers.

One last thought,when SAF goes (sooner I predict than later)do any of you think Mark Hughes has a chance??He's done pretty good so far for Wales and even Giggs plays for them now.</strong><hr></blockquote>

wow, we've been "shit" all of five minutes and everyone's soiling themselves with glee <img src="graemlins/yawn.gif" border="0" alt="[Yawn]" />

the Premiership is a Monarchy...the dirty, ugly roundheads might be running the show at the moment but you simply can't keep good old-fahioned class down for very long <img src="graemlins/devil.gif" border="0" alt="[Devil]" />

 

[GiggsysGirl]

Originally posted by dicko:
<strong>

We struggled because of the limits on foreigners. We couldn't put out our best side. You struggled struggled because you were shit. Liverpool struggle because they still are.</strong><hr></blockquote>

well said that man!

 

[RUnited]

Originally posted by dicko:
<strong>

We struggled because of the limits on foreigners. We couldn't put out our best side. You struggled struggled because you were shit. Liverpool struggle because they still are.</strong><hr></blockquote>

isn't it a general consensus that we were never really good enough until we hit top form in '99?

I do know that it's also a general consensus that Cantona couldn't lead us to the summit in Europe.

i think i agree with gillespie to some extent.. it does take experience to get there.. we had our fair share of losses on the way and it finally paid off.. and we've also been very consistent getting to the Quarters of the CL - the only team to have been doing so for 6-7 years running.

if you say it's because we couldn't use all the foreigners then it simply meant SAF wasn't careful enough in selecting players to play for us.. and therefore didn't think of the consequences that would follow in Europe.. he overcame it, and we went on to finally win. we improved with the experience of the losses.

 

[phunky]

Originally posted by RUnited:
<strong>

isn't it a general consensus that we were never really good enough until we hit top form in '99?

I do know that it's also a general consensus that Cantona couldn't lead us to the summit in Europe.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Where's all that coming from? Ur place? Not that i know of...
<img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[No No]" />

 

[RUnited]

Originally posted by phunky:
<strong>

Where's all that coming from? Ur place? Not that i know of...
<img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[No No]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

if you recal the thread that i compared Cantona with Keane as our captain, a lot of people agreed Keane is a much better leader because Cantona could never really lead us to do well in Europe.

<a href="http://www.redcafe.info//ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=008986&p=" target="_blank">Here</a>

 

[phunky]

Originally posted by RUnited:
<strong>

if you recal the thread that i compared Cantona with Keane as our captain, a lot of people agreed Keane is a much better leader because Cantona could never really lead us to do well in Europe.

<a href="http://www.redcafe.info//ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=008986&p=" target="_blank">Here</a></strong><hr></blockquote>

Well, Cantona and Keano lead in different manners. However, i do not think that our "poor" performance was solely due to Cantona's leadership, as what u projected in ur earlier post.

 

[RUnited]

Originally posted by phunky:
<strong>

Well, Cantona and Keano lead in different manners. However, i do not think that our "poor" performance was solely due to Cantona's leadership, as what u projected in ur earlier post.</strong><hr></blockquote>

hold your horns mate, i never used the word poor. i never said we were poor. i said we weren't good enough to get to the summit. and i never pinpointed at cantona, i simply said we weren't good enough until keane took charge of captaincy.

i'm a big fan of Cantona, i like him even more than i do keane to be honest.. but facts are there and as a lot of people pointed out to me, we really became unbeatable because of keane.. and right now that keane isn't here, we surely see how much we miss him.

we have a great team. we've always had a great team. SAF work finally bore fruits in '99.. and it's a result of all the losses in the past that he and the team had to suffer that gave us the experience to handle pressure and finally do it..

these things don't happen overnight. and it takes a lot of losing to finally win one. is it not true?

 

[Stanley Road]

Originally posted by Gillespie:
<strong>

Hmmm...................not easy...I'll ask around</strong><hr></blockquote>


Dont take too long

 

[Gillespie]

Originally posted by GiggsysGirl:
<strong>

wow, we've been "shit" all of five minutes and everyone's soiling themselves with glee <img src="graemlins/yawn.gif" border="0" alt="[Yawn]" />

the Premiership is a Monarchy...the dirty, ugly roundheads might be running the show at the moment but you simply can't keep good old-fahioned class down for very long <img src="graemlins/devil.gif" border="0" alt="[Devil]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

More than 5 minutes,unless you're ignoring the evidence of last season and as for comparing yourselves to the Pro-Royalist side of the Civil War and us to the Roundheads.....I seem to remember that your side lost the war (and for their leader,his head also !!).Though,I guess I shouldn't take the analogy too far

Well,we're talking football here and 'class' is represented by how well the team plays.Your team are playing,at best,somewhat averagely,and compared to 1999,very poor indeed.It takes time ,sometimes years and a great deal of personnel changes, before that decline can be turned around. And that is my view of your current predicament.

 

[GiggsysGirl]

Originally posted by Gillespie:
<strong>

More than 5 minutes,unless you're ignoring the evidence of last season and as for comparing yourselves to the Pro-Royalist side of the Civil War and us to the Roundheads.....I seem to remember that your side lost the war (and for their leader,his head also !!).Though,I guess I shouldn't take the analogy too far </strong><hr></blockquote>

you didn't take my analogy too far. you didn't take it anywhere. we have lost the war. our leader did lose his head. my point was...look around! is the warty bastard still running the show?

class to me suggests a sense of fair play, a table we pretty much top every season and something your manager wouldn't recognise if it bit him in the ass!

 

[Gillespie]

Originally posted by GiggsysGirl:
<strong>

you didn't take my analogy too far. you didn't take it anywhere. we have lost the war. our leader did lose his head. my point was...look around! is the warty bastard still running the show?

class to me suggests a sense of fair play, a table we pretty much top every season and something your manager wouldn't recognise if it bit him in the ass! </strong><hr></blockquote>

It wasn't clear to me that you had conceded defeat from your first post,nor has 'your head' (SAF) yet been lost...after all he is still there (well for the time being anyway).It's a bit unkind (even in a metaphorical sense ) to paint Arsene as 'the warty bastard',don't you think

Ah well,patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.......it seems to me that exhortation to a sense of fair play is the last refuge of a sore loser (Bit pot and kettle isn't it to suggest that Arsene is 'blind' to the faults of his players,how do you explain SAF's condoning your psychotic captain's thuggery against Haaland?)

ps PM

 

[dicko]

Originally posted by RUnited:
<strong>isn't it a general consensus that we were never really good enough until we hit top form in '99?

I do know that it's also a general consensus that Cantona couldn't lead us to the summit in Europe.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You say you have supported United for ten years or so. I guess in the pre Sky TV days you didn't get much info on United so here's some background.

I cant remember the exact details so this is probably slightly inaccurate. The rule limited clubs to three foreigners and two assimilated players. Players became assimilated if they had played ten years in the country or were that club's youth players. For united foreigners included Irish, Scottish and Welsh players.

Our side against Barcelona was Walsh, Parker, Irwin, Bruce, Pallister, Keane, Ince, Butt, Kanchelskis, Giggs, Hughes. (five foreigners Irwin, Keane, Kanchelskis, Giggs and Hughes). In hindsight it looks a reasonable side but there is no Schmeichel or Cantona.

Nicky Butt was no more than a promising youngster. At the start of the next season (after selling Ince, Hughes and Kanchelskis) Hansen famously said "you cant win anything with kids". The kids were Beckham, Scholes the Nevilles as well as Butt. Hansen was wrong but it puts into perspective how poorly rated Nicky Butt would have been ten months previously. Put Cantona into that side for Nicky, Schmikes in goal and the team is much, much stronger.

In those days only the league champions and European Cup holders qualified. Winning the league was more important to us than it is now. Firstly, there was no European Cup consolation for finishing second, third or fourth. Also, we had 'omly' won two titles in the prevous 28 years, not the current 7 from 10.

 

[Wibble]

Originally posted by Gillespie:
<strong>......basically into 2 camps.Those who see the current problems as a blip which will all come good when you get Keane ,Butt,Beckham etc back and you start to play again to your 'true potential' and those who see more serious problems which can only be resolved by a clear out (the defence is at fault,Giggs is over the top etc etc)</strong>

Do not pass go, do not collect $200.

I am in neither "camp" thank you very much. Anyone who doesn't think that the return of Keane et al. will improve things is a fool (or a Gooner) and anyone who thinks that injuries are the only things that are stoping us dominating the PL like we have done for so long is as big a fool.

<strong>As for the positive thinkers out there,how will you feel if Newcastle beat you saturday?(As it happens,I think they have an excellent opportunity to take 3 points at OT.)</strong>

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> Good prediction <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />
<hr></blockquote>

 

[Wibble]

However the biggest fools of all are those who have written us off as a spent force <img src="graemlins/keano.gif" border="0" alt="[Keano]" />