The War on Terror

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

Since it was declared so to speak, how would you assess the management of it? How it has been conducted?

Indeed where is progress being made?

I am guilty of over-simplifying matters in what i am about to say; however broadly speaking fear and infringements have increased in the West, the spread of extreme Islamist ideologies wider now than in 2001.

Arguably inroads have been made in South-east Asia although is that more something achieved off their own bat.

A worrying amount of the talking heads you hear on the news give the impression that they are content enough to raise shields and live on the defensive.

 

[Neutral]

Complete and utter failure.

Only success is that, since the unofficial war against Islam(I say this not because of some conspiracies, but because the course of action taken by the west can only mean this.) was declared, US/UK have not been victim to more attacks on the homefront. But how much of that is by design, luck, hard work?

Because truth be told, the west is NOT fighting terror, and it is not killing terrorists.

This war if it had to be waged, should have been done with muslim countries in tow...GO after the real culprits and have definite plans for the changing landscape.

Instead we had Saddam knocked off, and some cavemen in afghanistan pushed back into their caves. All the while, terrorists gained strength in places like Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, and africa.

Unfortunately I fear there will be a heavy price to pay for this shambles, muslims in muslim nations are already paying for it, dying in their hundreds and thousands in terrorist attacks, but the west will suffer too.

 

[Kaos]

As far as I'm aware this 'war on terror' has not reduced the threat of terror, but has instead catalysed it. Europe is currently in it's highest ever terror alert for sometime.

A part of me also thinks that while civilian security has ironically dwindled from this campaign, there are on the other hand certain powers and an elite that have hugely benefited from it too (I don't mean the 'terrorists' either).

 

[Grinner]

TSA have implemented new rules today that allow them to feel you up before you board a flight. I should just turn up in speedos and flip-flops next time I fly to save them the trouble.

 

[Mockney]

Doesn't seem to be getting anywhere really does it.

 

[Gambit]

Doesn't seem to be getting anywhere really does it.

Bit like the war on drugs.

 

[Nistelrooy10]

Complete failure.

 

[B Cantona]

I think it was going to get worse, and something needed to be done

I think its very cheap and easy to say its a complete failure, what are the authorities meant to do?

I think the travesty is the way civil liberties have been eroded using these issues as a battering ram, and the misuse of powers designed to combat terrorism

There's understandable opposition to war in Iraq, but there shouldn't be any to the war in Afghanistan, and that's been an absolute nightmare. Different rules, different game now

 

[Neutral]

I think it was going to get worse, and something needed to be done

I think its very cheap and easy to say its a complete failure, what are the authorities meant to do?

I think the travesty is the way civil liberties have been eroded using these issues as a battering ram, and the misuse of powers designed to combat terrorism

There's understandable opposition to war in Iraq, but there shouldn't be any to the war in Afghanistan, and that's been an absolute nightmare. Different rules, different game now

Umm they are meant to go after the real terrorists and those who fund them, house them, ideologically support and indoctrinate them.

It's not that hard, everyone knows where this is happening...but it's not convenient politically to go after them.

So it's not cheap to say it's a complete failure.

 

[Grinner]

Terrorism is good for business. Lots of people make lots of money out of it so it'll continue to be a threat as long as this is possible.

 

[skeeta]

Iraq should make an application for indemnification, for this piratical robbery of it by the US government.

 

[Kaos]

I think its very cheap and easy to say its a complete failure, what are the authorities meant to do?

If the authorities were serious about tackling terrorism then they'd investigate and address the underlying causes, many of which aren't exactly difficult to trace. Declaring war on an ambiguous ideology is only going to elevate the situation, which it has seeing as the western world is on a much higher alert today than it has been years ago.

Though I suspect that these 'authorities' were well aware that their actions will have only further undermined the security of their civilians, but they simply persisted for this very reason:

Terrorism is good for business. Lots of people make lots of money out of it so it'll continue to be a threat as long as this is possible.

I should also add the political advantages gained at the wars that been declared in the 'fight against terror'.

 

[Raoul]

There's really no such thing as the War on Terror. It was a Bush era pejorative that was intended to rally public support behind the idea that ongoing conflicts will be necessary in order push back against terrorism. The US does this all the time. The War on Poverty (1960s President Johnson), the War on Drugs (1980s Ronald Reagan) etc.

 

[Sultan]

The Pak army and ISI acted as agents for USA's jihad against Russia, and were given the task of nurturing fundamentalist Frankensteins. Having made these, both the US and Pakistan either expected it could rein them in once the job had been completed (failed) or never had a long term strategy of dealing with the fall outs. However, these frankenstines came knocking on September 11, and still causing havoc in both Pakistan and Afghanistan.

Once again the task after 9/11 was Afghanistan had to be remade. The consequence of this policy is that Millions of these poor, homeless, uneducated and highly bitter youths of Afghanistan have washed up in Pakistan. We all hear the consequences everyday.

The cycle of of power and destruction continues.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

The Pak army and ISI acted as agents for USA's jihad against Russia, and were given the task of nurturing fundamentalist Frankensteins. Having made these, both the US and Pakistan either expected it could rein them in once the job had been completed (failed) or never had a long term strategy of dealing with the fall outs. However, these frankenstines came knocking on September 11, and still causing havoc in both Pakistan and Afghanistan.

Once again the task after 9/11 was Afghanistan had to be remade. The consequence of this policy is that Millions of these poor, homeless, uneducated and highly bitter youths of Afghanistan have washed up in Pakistan. We all hear the consequences everyday.

The cycle of of power and destruction continues.

The US resisted the USSR invasion of Afghanistan by proxy as part of the Regan doctrine, if they could have done it another way, I'm sure they would have.

From the US perspective it wasn't a 'failure' at all. The Soviet war in Afghanistan was a key part in bringing down the USSR and ending the cold war, that's all the US was ever thinking about.

 

[Sultan]

The US resisted the USSR invasion of Afghanistan by proxy as part of the Regan doctrine, if they could have done it another way, I'm sure they would have.

From the US perspective it wasn't a 'failure' at all. The Soviet war in Afghanistan was a key part in bringing down the USSR and ending the cold war, that's all the US was ever thinking about.

Good point Mike.

The Russian invasion had to be resisted that's a given.

However, why does things have to be from the "US perspective"? Others do have a right to the world.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

Good point Mike.

The Russian invasion had to be resisted that's a given.

However, why does things have to be from the "US perspective"? Others do have a right to the world.

It doesn't have to be seen from the US perspective, but I was replying to your post which was written from that point of view.

With regards to the US funding the training of mujahideen in Pakistan and Afghanistan, I'm not trying to make out like the US are angels or anything, but the nature of international affairs is that sometimes (often) you have to get into bed with potential enemies out of necessity. The UK and US had to work with the soviets in WWII but I wouldn't use that as evidence of their complicity in the rise of the soviet empire and ensuing cold war. It's just the nature of the game, you sometimes can't be too picky about who you work with.

 

[Sultan]

It's just the nature of the game, you sometimes can't be too picky about who you work with.

...and the consequences of such policies is Islam, and Muslims now being generalised as the devils and suffer as a consequence.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

...and the consequences of such policies is Islam, and Muslims now being generalised as the devils and suffer as a consequence.

Germans and Japanese suffered a similar stigma in the past. In fact the treatment of the Japanese in the US (with internment camps) was infinitely worse than what Muslims in the states are now experiencing, which is minor by comparison. Suspected communists suffered similar problems. It's sad and regrettable, but if history is a guide, it should pass.

 

[Team Brian GB]

The US resisted the USSR invasion of Afghanistan by proxy as part of the Regan doctrine, if they could have done it another way, I'm sure they would have.

From the US perspective it wasn't a 'failure' at all. The Soviet war in Afghanistan was a key part in bringing down the USSR and ending the cold war, that's all the US was ever thinking about.

Exactly, I've made this point many times before - the Americans did exactly the right thing and basically the only thing they could have done and they should be praised for it. Their policy in Afghanistan brought the world back from the brink of nuclear annihilation, it ended any realistic prospects of WWIII being inevitable, the world had been divided into factions since the late thirties always on the brink of war - whatever you say about the terrorist threat of the last decade, it is nothing compared to what was faced by previous generations. There was nothing the US could have done but fund local militias - unless of course you wanted the US Marine Corps facing off against the Red Army?

The mistakes that were made was not following up after the Soviets withdrew - if we went on a reconstruction bent as we are trying to do now then it is likely the world may be very different now, but the actually policy to resist Moscow was right on.

 

[RedSky]

We aren't addressing the root cause of the issue. How can you fight an enemy you don't trully understand?

 

[Team Brian GB]

Germans and Japanese suffered a similar stigma in the past. In fact the treatment of the Japanese in the US (with internment camps) was infinitely worse than what Muslims in the states are now experiencing, which is minor by comparison. Suspected communists suffered similar problems. It's sad and regrettable, but if history is a guide, it should pass.

Add the Chinese, Italians and Irish to that - any one who wasn't anglo saxon and protestant at some point or another got victimised. Italian immigrants used to get lynched in the same way and similar numbers that slaves and free blacks in the segregation era did. It is the great contradictions of American society and values, American treatment of black people completely takes over but they were by no means singled out.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

Add the Chinese, Italians and Irish to that - any one who wasn't anglo saxon and protestant at some point or another got victimised. Italian immigrants used to get lynched in the same way and similar numbers that slaves and free blacks in the segregation era did. It is the great contradictions of American society and values, American treatment of black people completely takes over but they were by no means singled out.

I was more referring to discrimination based on reaction to a conflict, as Sultan says is happening to Muslims, rather than the other causes of discrimination and persecution.

 

[Team Brian GB]

We aren't addressing the root cause of the issue. How can you fight an enemy you don't trully understand?

This is when Israel needs to stand up and take notice of the stigma it is giving to the west - we cannot seriously talk about trying to do right by the muslim world whilst the status quo between Tel Aviv and Gaza City remains, and until the Americans realise they shouldn't be in Israel's pocket so much that won't happen.

This is one of the great tragedies of British foreign policy in recent times, we always had a reputation of being pro-Arab, we never saw eye to eye with Israel but because we decided that we need to be so close to the Americans we had to bend our policy more and more towards Washington. Tony Blair talks a lot in his book about how prominent an issue people in the Muslim world were saying Palestine was, and he had the stature on the world stage to push the agenda toward it yet he stayed quiet on anything but support for the United States.

 

[Team Brian GB]

I was more referring to discrimination based on reaction to a conflict, as Sultan says is happening to Muslims, rather than the other causes of discrimination and persecution.

Fair enough, though persecution is persecution, the Americans have shown through their history that they haven't needed a conflict to be such. In the reconstruction era Japanese and Chinese immigrants were being bullied and beaten up and lynched, before that Italian and Irish immigrants were getting the same treatment. Of course this is a completely different age, but the progression of history shows very strong correlation between past and present.

 

[mjs020294]

GW Bush and his merry band of men made pretty much every wrong decision they could after 911. The US had the sympathy and support of pretty much the entire world and missed a great opportunity. They should have gone after the real culprits using special ops, and addressed the underlying reason for anti-west feeling amongst militants.

A little pressure on Israel, and $10 billion a year improving the infrastructure and education for the Palestinians would have gone a long way toward stopping the circle of hate IMO.

 

[Kaos]

GW Bush and his merry band of men made pretty much every wrong decision they could after 911. The US had the sympathy and support of pretty much the entire world and missed a great opportunity. They should have gone after the real culprits using special ops, and addressed the underlying reason for anti-west feeling amongst militants.

A little pressure on Israel, and $10 billion a year improving the infrastructure and education for the Palestinians would have gone a long way toward stopping the circle of hate IMO.

That's the best post I've seen from you here.

 

[mjs020294]

That's the best post I've seen from you here.

Then you read and interpret things out of context then. I have have posted similar stuff to the above many times. In fact that is exactly what I thought should have happened back on September 12th 2001.

I will always support the military* because they serve the country, the government and ultimately public.


*Obviously no one should support the tiny minority in the military that commit crimes.

 

[Nucks]

The US resisted the USSR invasion of Afghanistan by proxy as part of the Regan doctrine, if they could have done it another way, I'm sure they would have.

From the US perspective it wasn't a 'failure' at all. The Soviet war in Afghanistan was a key part in bringing down the USSR and ending the cold war, that's all the US was ever thinking about.

Afghanistan's role in the collapse of the USSR is grossly exaggerated. Playing up the role Afghanistan had in the collapse suits western propaganda.

 

[holyland red]

This is when Israel needs to stand up and take notice of the stigma it is giving to the west - we cannot seriously talk about trying to do right by the muslim world whilst the status quo between Tel Aviv and Gaza City remains, and until the Americans realise they shouldn't be in Israel's pocket so much that won't happen.

A little pressure on Israel, and $10 billion a year improving the infrastructure and education for the Palestinians would have gone a long way toward stopping the circle of hate IMO.

This shit is well past its sell-by date. If anything, more Americans and even many in Europe understand that Israel and the West are fighting the same corner in this war.

 

[Kaos]

This shit is well past its sell-by date. If anything, more Americans and even many in Europe understand that Israel and the West are fighting the same corner in this war.

And what 'corner' would that be? This isn't simply a fight between Good and Evil, the benevolent vs the brutal etc.....the boundaries are more distorted than you'd like to admit they are.

And like it or not the US are only supporting Israel because they're using it as a buffer in the region to satisfy their own regional political and economic goals, as well some influence from the Zionist lobby. This is nothing to do with sharing compassionate, ideological similarities...unless you believe in this Judeo-Christian crusade that's adopted by the likes of Bush.

 

[Count Duckula]

If we're drawing this on religious lines surely the Christian states of Europe and America would have more in common with the Muslim states of the Middle-East than they would with Israel. It was the Jews, after all, who killed Jesus.

Islam and Christianity have more in common than Judaism and Christianity, although all three are Abrahamic religions, of course. In all fairness, we should be fighting a vast global war against the Far East.

 

[iSparky]

has any progress been made? apparently the iraq war has been a step forward however every day it looks more and more likely that someone is going to bomb the shit out of us

 

[Kaos]

has any progress been made? apparently the iraq war has been a step forward however every day it looks more and more likely that someone is going to bomb the shit out of us

The only progress that's been made is that certain nations have become more powerful and individuals and private companies becoming more richer. Civilians in every nation involved are actually worse off then they were before this 'war' was initiated...including those who live in the US and the UK.

Iraq hasn't been a step forward either. A brutal regime has only been replaced with a brutal theocracy, turning Iraq into a playground for factions to impose their power struggles, whereas meanwhile dozens of innocents are regularly butchered in their own country for simply being in the middle of it all...doesn't smell like progress to me.

 

[Kaos]

If we're drawing this on religious lines surely the Christian states of Europe and America would have more in common with the Muslim states of the Middle-East than they would with Israel. It was the Jews, after all, who killed Jesus.

Islam and Christianity have more in common than Judaism and Christianity, although all three are Abrahamic religions, of course. In all fairness, we should be fighting a vast global war against the Far East.

Well the concept behind Judeo-Christianity is that it supposedly represents the cultural majority of the United states and parts of Europe, where economic and social values are shared - an impenetrable circle of familiarity if you will. It's mostly just a term overused by conservatives though.

The animosity between Islam and Christianity is most likely to have derived from the Crusades too.

 

[Team Brian GB]

This shit is well past its sell-by date. If anything, more Americans and even many in Europe understand that Israel and the West are fighting the same corner in this war.

You are talking nonsense now, Israel is in the position of having a state and having their sovereignty secured by outside powers - Palestine has neither hence Israel has little qualms with this playing out over decades. Therefore a deal will only happen if the western world pressure Israel into accepting one as the only thing that Israel can lose that is more tangible than East Jerusalem is outside backing.

I always find it remarkable when the Israelis talk about this being a battle between good and evil as when they were the stateless people they used terrorist means themselves.

 

[holyland red]

You are talking nonsense now, Israel is in the position of having a state and having their sovereignty secured by outside powers - Palestine has neither hence Israel has little qualms with this playing out over decades. Therefore a deal will only happen if the western world pressure Israel into accepting one as the only thing that Israel can lose that is more tangible than East Jerusalem is outside backing.

I always find it remarkable when the Israelis talk about this being a battle between good and evil as when they were the stateless people they used terrorist means themselves.

Israel is in a position where its sovereignty is challenged. Not so much by that loon from Iran but more from the claim that the Palestinians are interested in a two-state solution. So far they have failed to acknowledge the basic rights of Jews for self-determination, meaning that one of those two states would be Jewish.

It's not a question of good and evil, and not necessarily one of religion per se. We have fundamental loons who are just as "evil" as those from the other side of the divide. However, culturally Israel is a Western society and has a lot in common with the West in that respect and it is here where you find a divide between these and most Muslim societies, let alone the fundamental elements who are out to have a go at "Western values". It's absolute bollocks to suggest that the cultural divide between Judeo-Christian and Muslim societies would be bridged by sticking a Palestinian flag on a Jerusalem mosque.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

Thus far in this thread there seems to be a dated focus on Afghanistan/Pakistan and Palestine. Whilst these are of course areas of concern it is to ignore large sections of the landscape.

Yemen, Niger, Mauritania, Somalia, Indonesia, Central Asia, domestically here in the West, you all know that this problem is neither static or as simple as some in the media portray it to be. This morning i had to turn Fivelive because the presenter was doing just this.

Poverty, education both in the mainstream and religious sense, these are where we have to be raising our game [as well as our efforts in anti-terrorism].

From what i have heard over the years of this "war", London and Washington could learn a good deal from examples in Morocco and Indonesia.

 

[skeeta]

Amnesia has overtook our government and some people regarding our own responsibility for war crimes and crimes against humanity; an amnesia that has thankfully only recently begun to dissipate. President Bush and Prime Minister Blair are criminals and ought to be sent to The Hague.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

What crime are you charging them with?