The Virgin League Draft - Final - GodShaveTheQueen vs. Šjor Bepo & Gio

[Invictus]

GodShaveTheQueen.........................................................................................................Šjor Bepo & Gio

..........VS............

Team GodShaveTheQueen

PHILOSOPHY

Some things are better than winning

FORMATION & PLAYING STYLE

3-2-2-3 (WM) - Attacking

STARTED FROM MOURINHO

1. The original intention was to play the below team.

-----------------------Fontaine---------------------
Finney------------Littbarski----------Hamrin
------Blanchflower----------Cerezo------------
Benarrivo---Bratseth---Germano--Vogts

2. Its a proper counter attacking team which has a brilliant card against Pirlo in Littbarski.
3. Dropping Sivori/Socrates for Littbarski's workrate would have been a move both Jose and Sir Alex would have been proud of. Remember Park on Pirlo?
4. The midfield in itself is perfect, a hard working No.10, a hard working creative playmaker and the best DM in the pool (with the added bonus of being able to play football as well).
5. I had settled on this for at least a couple of days, but I found it to be too boring. More likely than not would have led to a boring debate and a shit match thread for a final.
6. Besides, losing in style with a well built WM is any day better than winning with a boring 4231. At least in my eyes

ENDED WITH GUTTMANN

1. And so I ended with the WM, one that I hope the immortal Bela Guttmann would be proud of.
2. I have always believed that building a WM needs time, the right fits, the right balance and more importantly, the right opposition.
3. You can't play a WM in a round 1 game, it would be too far away from being perfect.
4. A mistake in a WM is way more bigger and costlier than a mistake in a normal formation
5. On an initial look, most things seemed perfect.
6. I had Vogts who would not look out of place as a RCB even in an all time draft. Germano excelled all his career in the same role and setup.
7. I had Littbarski who could track Marcelo's forays forward all day long.
8. I had Sivori and Socrates who could double up on Pirlo both on and off the ball.
9. I had Bremner and Cerezo, the perfect double pivot in the pool to handle Hidegkuti and Gascoigne.
10. So the only questionable role was that of Rune Bratseth. So that is the only player I would be going into a bit more detail in the tactics as the rest is obvious as feck.

RUNE BRATSETH

1. So lets get the obvious advantages out of the way. Based on first impressions from his attributes, he looks like an excellent fit against Mbappe.
2. Bratseth was a very reliable defender. Not only was he a brilliant reader of the game but also had speed to match the best forwards of his time.
3. But you can't let anyone and everyone play as a wide CB can you?
4. The very least you need to have is experience in the role along with footage if possible.
5. The tall, athletic Norwegian defender came to Bremen in 1986.
6. Otto Rehhagel first used him as a man-marker, a position he soon made a name for himself due to his fairness and calm way of going on about his task.
7. The team already had a great libero of that era, Gunnar Sauer who held on to the role till 1988. So for 2 seasons, Rune Bratseth had to contain play in the role shown in the below setup.
8. It wasn't until Sauer got injured frequently starting 1988 that Bratseth was moved to the libero role. So Bratseth did have at least a couple of years of experience playing the role
9. There is also full match footage of him on YouTube playing the wide CB role quite effectively, the link of which I am adding below.
10. I dont think anyone will have the time or interest to watch it, but I did my homework and I can show you the rough work.
11. If you are looking for a more high profile game, Bratseth troubled even the great Arrigo Sacchi led Milan which boasted of a front 2 of Van Basten and Gullit.
12. They managed to score only 1 goal in two ties against Werder Bremen defense led by Bratseth in 1989. They had to deal with Gullit in his usual favorite right central role at Milan (Full game at the end).

Team Šjor Bepo & Gio

DEFENCE
Led by Carlos Mozer who became the defensive bedrock for 3 of the best teams of the 1980s: the world-conquering Flamengo side, as well as serial European Cup finalists Benfica and Marseille. He will be the athletic ball-playing sweeper next to 'the wall' Jose Santamaria who is perhaps the most decorated and widely respected defender in the pool, proving his worth for the solid Uruguay side of the early 1950s and often a one-man band at the back for Europe-dominating Real Madrid. Behind him Walter Zenga completes a rock-solid core. With Mozer reprising his left-hand-side covering role from OM, fellow Brazilian Marcelo joins off the back of heavily influencing 4 Champions League titles. Supporting on the other flank is the wily all-rounder Willy Sagnol.

MIDFIELD
The midfield is built around Andrea Pirlo so pivotal as the creative force behind Milan, Juventus and Italy. His Europe and world-beating partnership with Gattuso gains an upgrade in the ultimate midfield dynamo and hound-dog in N'Golo Kante. Bringing goal threat, passing range, ball-carrying and loads of hustle is Paul Gascoigne who was simply unplayable for much of his peak 3-year period.

ATTACK
Nandor Hidegkuti is the centrepoint of the attack: injecting goals (39 in 69 for Hungary, over 300 in his career), creativity (bazillions of assists), and'intelligence 'fine technique and tactical guile' [Sebes]. Racing from the right is Kylian Mbappe whose 3-year peak is starting to look ridiculously stacked (a goals+assists to games ratio of 1:1 and rising in L1 and CL, and a World Cup capped off by that R9-esque demolition of Argentina). The attack is refined with the introduction of Jupp Heynckes on the left - 3-year peak of 149 games, 130 goals - who happily joins our 50-man cavalry of German wide attackers to call upon.

KEY POINTS

• Strong midfield trio with arguably the most effective deep-lying playmaker and ball-winner in the pool. Up against a suave team, they are well schooled in contain-and-counter football and can squeeze the game and punish the opposition on the break (sound familiar Brazil '82?)
• Strong defensive backbone. In our eyes Santamaria and Mozer are the best centre-halves on the pitch. In midfield Sivori/Socrates will face a tough time against Duracell bunny Kante and the Matthaus-stopping Gascoigne. Meanwhile, Sagnol, having kept tabs on the tricky winger version of Cristiano in the 2006 WC semi-final, is a cracking fit for Finney.
• Potent and fluid front three based around the original false 9 Hidegkuti, flanked by the full-back eviscerating Mpabbe and the quicksilver Heynckes. After multiple attempts, we feel that we have finally got the synergy and fit right. Mpabbe's speed and trickery will pose plenty of problems against Benarrivo/Bonucci while Heynckes is custom-designed for this role and should profit from Hidegkuti's selfless creativity. Both Pirlo and Gascoigne have the passing range and vision to release the trio early on the break.

Good luck @GodShaveTheQueen @Šjor Bepo @Gio!

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

@Invictus , thanks for setting up my graphics, their graphics and the match thread

Good luck @Šjor Bepo @Gio

 

[Himannv]

I first looked at the images and thought, "hmm, a WM in the final!?!? That's suicide! Let's vote for the other team". Then I looked at how it might work against the opposition and player suitability and the only thing that looked off was Bratseth at LCB. The writeup, however, addressed exactly that problem quite well. It's also a gutsy move to go for a setup like this in a final so I think that decided my vote.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

The writeup, however, addressed exactly that problem quite well

Thanks for reading the OP

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Thanks for reading the OP

It was a superb OP in fairness, and kudos for opting for such a bold formation. No idea how I'll vote yet but I'll follow the thread with interest.

 

[Physiocrat]

It was a superb OP in fairness, and kudos for opting for such a bold formation. No idea how I'll vote yet but I'll follow the thread with interest.

Agreed

 

[Gio]

RUNE BRATSETH

1. So lets get the obvious advantages out of the way. Based on first impressions from his attributes, he looks like an excellent fit against Mbappe.
2. Bratseth was a very reliable defender. Not only was he a brilliant reader of the game but also had speed to match the best forwards of his time.
3. But you can't let anyone and everyone play as a wide CB can you?
4. The very least you need to have is experience in the role along with footage if possible.
5. The tall, athletic Norwegian defender came to Bremen in 1986.
6. Otto Rehhagel first used him as a man-marker, a position he soon made a name for himself due to his fairness and calm way of going on about his task.
7. The team already had a great libero of that era, Gunnar Sauer who held on to the role till 1988. So for 2 seasons, Rune Bratseth had to contain play in the role shown in the below setup.
8. It wasn't until Sauer got injured frequently starting 1988 that Bratseth was moved to the libero role. So Bratseth did have at least a couple of years of experience playing the role
9. There is also full match footage of him on YouTube playing the wide CB role quite effectively, the link of which I am adding below.
10. I dont think anyone will have the time or interest to watch it, but I did my homework and I can show you the rough work.
11. If you are looking for a more high profile game, Bratseth troubled even the great Arrigo Sacchi led Milan which boasted of a front 2 of Van Basten and Gullit.
12. They managed to score only 1 goal in two ties against Werder Bremen defense led by Bratseth in 1989. They had to deal with Gullit in his usual favorite right central role at Milan (Full game at the end).

I don't mind Bratseth in a wide CB role, even on his weaker left hand side. But I would expect some sort of defensive support from a wing-back or something ahead of him. It's hard to buy that flank being defensively secure. Especially on the break when there are huge spaces to defend. And especially up against Mpabbe of all players who has incredible acceleration, pace, trickery and the low centre of gravity to tease in defenders and skip past them. Even when they've got Bratseth's top speed, it's Mpabbe's change of pace over 5 yards that is almost impossible to defend against. Basically the only way to do so is to try and make the park as small and as compact as possible and double up against him as Real did in the Champions League last year. That's how Werder defend against Milan and Verona in the ties above. They defend pretty deep and get loads of bodies behind the ball. Bratseth has defenders all round him within a few yards. Doing the very opposite seems incredibly risky. Especially with arguably the most deadly launcher of counter attacks from the base of midfield of all time in Pirlo in our team.

The defensive system you have there is very similar to Guardiola's Bayern against Barcelona in 2015. It too was a back 3, also going man-for-man against a 3-man attack, also trying to defend huge spaces, and also against a counter-attacking team. That was absolute carnage and it could have been 3 or 4 nil within the first 25 minutes.

 

[Enigma_87]

Great game this. Haven't decided my vote yet, but at first glance a very good executed WM.

Would be hard pressed to find a better wingers to cover their defensive duties, especially in this pool than Finney and Littbarski, so I probably expect them to do some heavy lifting in the defensive phase. Apart from that nice to see Germano having a run in the final.

Bratseth I have no issues with him in that role and he has the physical and tactical attributes to pull it off. The only concerning part is Mbappe pace and acceleration on the counter. Apart from that Heynckes is well covered by Vogts and I think Hidegkuti is also minded well in that unit. On the other hand Santamaria and Mozer seem well equipped with handling Fontaine, but Littbarski vs Marcelo is worrying and probably I'd back the former in that particular battle.

Love Sagnol too, but Finney should also have the upper hand.

The key to me is how well would Finney/Littbarski will function in both phases and the support they will offer to the defence/attack.

 

[Gio]

Great game this. Haven't decided my vote yet, but at first glance a very good executed WM.

Would be hard pressed to find a better wingers to cover their defensive duties, especially in this pool than Finney and Littbarski, so I probably expect them to do some heavy lifting in the defensive phase. Apart from that nice to see Germano having a run in the final.

Bratseth I have no issues with him in that role and he has the physical and tactical attributes to pull it off. The only concerning part is Mbappe pace and acceleration on the counter. Apart from that Heynckes is well covered by Vogts and I think Hidegkuti is also minded well in that unit. On the other hand Santamaria and Mozer seem well equipped with handling Fontaine, but Littbarski vs Marcelo is worrying and probably I'd back the former in that particular battle.

Love Sagnol too, but Finney should also have the upper hand.

The key to me is how well would Finney/Littbarski will function in both phases and the support they will offer to the defence/attack.

Fair comments. On Finney/Littbarski they will do a decent job pressing the full-backs, but I don't see them cutting supply that bypasses them to the front three. It shouldn't be too difficult to bend a ball around them down the line. They are too far up the park to make much of a contribution once the ball is transitioned forward. And with the two fastest players in the park in Heynckes and Mpabbe surging forwards, they'll often end up out of the game.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

It was a superb OP in fairness, and kudos for opting for such a bold formation.

Agreed

Thanks guys.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

But I would expect some sort of defensive support from a wing-back or something ahead of him. It's hard to buy that flank being defensively secure. Especially on the break when there are huge spaces to defend.

My thought process was this -

1. You don't have a target in the box. Hidegkuti will be dropping deep more often than not as a dedicated No.10 doesn't exist.
2. So its not just Bratseth against Mbappe. He has Germano to cover for him centrally.
3. He has Bremner ahead of him who had all the energy in the world to shuttle horizontally across that defensive axis just ahead of the back 3.
4. We have 4 players in midfield and so will never be short of numbers and we will still have a dedicated DM in Cerezo patrolling things.

And especially up against Mpabbe of all players who has incredible acceleration, pace, trickery and the low centre of gravity to tease in defenders and skip past them. Even when they've got Bratseth's top speed, it's Mpabbe's change of pace over 5 yards that is almost impossible to defend against. Basically the only way to do so is to try and make the park as small and as compact as possible and double up against him as Real did in the Champions League last year

And that is what we plan to do.

1. With Hidegkuti needing to be the creative presence and dropping deep into the hole, its essentially going to be a 2 strikers vs 3 CB's contest almost all the time.
2. That I think plays straight into my hands with the narrow compact back 5.
3. I don't think Mbappe needs to be man marked here simply because you don't have a dedicated No.9 in the box.
4. I am more concerned with stopping his runs rather than worrying about the balls he puts in as that seems really easy to deal here. I honestly dont rate Mbappe high as a provider anyways.
5. Lets also not forget that we are not playing a ridiculously high line. Bratseth's job is to stay back and read when Mbappe makes his runs and stop him in his tracks.
6. Bratseth won't ever be in a foot race with Mbappe. He will only need to match his burst in the final few strides and that he is more than capable of.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

The key to me is how well would Finney/Littbarski will function in both phases and the support they will offer to the defence/attack.

On Finney/Littbarski they will do a decent job pressing the full-backs, but I don't see them cutting supply that bypasses them to the front three

Yea, both had good discipline about them, so not completely out of place for sure.

But the key piece here is Littbarski. He wasn't just another winger who did his bit with pressing occasionally.

He was a proper hard working pain in the ass off the ball.

He'd make a dribble attempt, go past two, lose the ball to the third and then track it all the way back if needed to win the ball back. Absolutely brilliant off the ball with insane energy.

I'd say had more energy than even Beckham at times.

I watched a few videos created by @Joga Bonito of him in the No.10 role as I was considering putting him against Pirlo as stated in the OP and you can see what I mean.







There are more videos of him on Joga's youtube channel, but these two should do the trick if anyone has 15 minutes to spare.

 

[Gio]

My thought process was this -

1. You don't have a target in the box. Hidegkuti will be dropping deep more often than not as a dedicated No.10 doesn't exist.
2. So its not just Bratseth against Mbappe. He has Germano to cover for him centrally.
3. He has Bremner ahead of him who had all the energy in the world to shuttle horizontally across that defensive axis just ahead of the back 4.
4. We have 4 players in midfield and so will never be short of numbers and we will still have a dedicated DM in Cerezo patrolling things.

We have plenty of creativity in midfield through Pirlo and Gascoigne. So Hidegkuti can drop off Germano, spin and still get into the box. He doesn't drop into an #8 position to get involved. And the beauty of Heynckes and Mpabbe is that they can start wide, burn into the box and score. That's how our shape and tactics are planned to work (and how most front threes operate these days). And Heynckes and Mpabbe have 220 goals between them during their 3-year peaks.

As for the midfield cover effort, I buy Bremner's recovery skills. I don't fancy Cerezo with wide open spaces to cover and he was vulnerable in transitions in the 1982 which, in a gung-ho system (sound familiar) contributed to Brazil's downfall. And I really don't buy the ability of Sivori and Socrates to get stuck in behind the ball and win it back. Poor Bremner will run out of gas having to do their work and cover the flanks. Too many passengers and too much space for us to exploit.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

We have plenty of creativity in midfield through Pirlo and Gascoigne. So Hidegkuti can drop off Germano, spin and still get into the box.

I don't deny that. But having a dedicated No.9 is very different from having a false 9 like Hidegkuti.

You have so many creative players in Pirlo, Gascoigne, Hidegkuti, yet you lack that dedicated No.9 to be a constant threat at the centre of the pitch.

With so much creativity, the dependence for goals still largely lies on wide forwards Mbappe and Heynckes who to be fair are both good scorers as you mention, but they do run into a compact 3 man defense.

As for the midfield cover effort, I buy Bremner's recovery skills. I don't fancy Cerezo with wide open spaces to cover

He doesn't have to cover out wide. Unlike Finney, Littbarski can man the flank on his own.

For me Vogts-Littbarski is not very different to Gentile-Conti or Burgnich-Jair.

I'd be foolish to ask my dedicated DM to drift out wide and give Hidegkuti the license to drop deep into empty spaces and work his magic.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

And I really don't buy the ability of Sivori and Socrates to get stuck in behind the ball and win it back. Poor Bremner will run out of gas having to do their work and cover the flanks. Too many passengers and too much space for us to exploit.

Am sorry, but you are misinformed about Sivori then. He worked well off the ball. Quite physical and aggressive for his short stature.

Socrates, I don't think was as hard working off the ball, but in a congested space, I wouldn't expect Pirlo to have much space.

And this is just Pirlo on the ball.

Off the ball, a team without a dedicated holder against two great creative forces in the centre is huge trouble in my eyes.

But I promised myself I wont attack Pirlo in this game as he deserves a great outing and not just being treated as a liability at the business end of the drafts, so this is the last you will hear from me on him in this game.

I still will say that someone a lot more defensive than Gascoigne would have been great there to bring the best out of the setup and Pirlo/Hidegkuti as well.

You have all the creativity in the world in the form on Pirlo and Hidegkuti, I simply dont see the need to be more selfish and get Gascoigne too, especially without even a dedicated No.9.

Just kicks the balance out for me. I know this will piss Sjor off, but that is a stand I have maintained since the start of the draft in round 1.

 

[Jim Beam]

King of transformation does it again. Great work from start to the final GodShave (and lovely OP, must yet read Bratseth part). Think you are well equipped, if not to stop, then to slow that front 3. I actually don't mind going 3 at the back and Bremner and Cerezo are very good support to close the centre and provide defensive help.
The worry is Pirlo here and ideally I would like someone more aggressive in front of him (maybe Sivori can do the job, am not sure tbh), otherwise he will have a lot of time in what will be a gung ho match by the look of things and will sent more than few deadly counters.

Will read more.

 

[harms]

And especially up against Mpabbe of all players

He's right up there next to Makalele in my list of ridiculously overrated players, not sure what he does in the final.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Thanks @Jim Beam

The worry is Pirlo here and ideally I would like someone more aggressive in front of him (maybe Sivori can do the job, am not sure tbh)

I'd recommend everyone to watch Sivori a tad more closely off the ball.

I will try to create some gifs a few hours later if a full game is available on youtube.

He was no Littbarski, but was more than decent off the ball.

 

[Gio]

6. Besides, losing in style with a well built WM is any day better than winning with a boring 4231. At least in my eyes

Like you we considered the 4-2-3-1 but similarly we decided to stay true to the 4-3-3 that was built around the talents of Pirlo and Hidegkuti. Any time we discussed a switch to 4-2-3-1 Sjor said he'd rather disown Gazza than go down that route.

 

[Gio]

You have all the creativity in the world in the form on Pirlo and Hidegkuti, I simply dont see the need to be more selfish and get Gascoigne too, especially without even a dedicated No.9.

It's hardly an overload. Gascoigne is a nicely well rounded no8 who complements the midfield effort and links up midfield and attack well.

Irony being of course that you've got Cerezo, Socrates, Sivori, Finney and Littbarski all playmaking, 3 of them in the same central square. That's where there is too much creativity at the expense of a well rounded and functioning team.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Like you we considered the 4-2-3-1 but similarly we decided to stay true to the 4-3-3 that was built around the talents of Pirlo and Hidegkuti. Any time we discussed a switch to 4-2-3-1 Sjor said he'd rather disown Gazza than go down that route.

I had no doubt in my mind that you were starting 4-3-3.

I disagree with Bepo often, but I have never once seen him change his setup due to comments in a match thread.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

It's hardly an overload. Gascoigne is a nicely well rounded no8 who complements the midfield effort and links up midfield and attack well.

If you had a dedicated No.9 there, I would agree. Without one, at least in my eyes it is. I guess we can agree to disagree on that bit and maybe wait for a few more opinions.

Irony being of course that you've got Cerezo, Socrates, Sivori, Finney and Littbarski all playmaking, 3 of them in the same central square.

All five of them were nothing like any other in the list. There is a hell lot of variety there.

They have their own unique channels. The transformation of the ball from one channel to another till we find a breakthrough would be mesmerizing IMO.

That's where there is too much creativity at the expense of a well rounded and functioning team.

The creativity is supplemented by goal scorers everywhere, including a dedicated No.9

If one of the front 5 is being the creative force on the ball at a particular moment, you can bet the rest 4 would be looking for options to get into scoring areas.

One only needs to look into wiki pages of all 5 of them to see their scoring credentials.

This is why I felt on your side either Gascoigne had to be dropped for a more defensive balancing presence or the team had to have a dedicated No.9 and not a false 9.

Again, I am sure we won't agree on these things, but I guess both our stances are pretty clearly presented.

 

[Gio]

This is why I felt on your side either Gascoigne had to be dropped for a more defensive balancing presence or the team had to have a dedicated No.9 and not a false 9.

Thinking about some other classic false 9 set-ups, I'm not sure that they needed defensively balancing midfields. For example, Pep's Barcelona had Iniesta playing the most attacking role in midfield and he dovetailed perfectly with Messi. And Gascoigne is similar in offering lots of on-the-ball quality and interplay to hook up with Hidegkuti, but also has the work rate and defensive presence to contribute to the midfield effort (moreso than Iniesta for what it's worth). If anything it's important that a false 9 set-up has options between the lines to combine with, rather than purely defensively minded players who don't have the same ability to combine and progress the ball into dangerous areas.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

For example, Pep's Barcelona had Iniesta playing the most attacking role in midfield and he dovetailed perfectly with Messi. And Gascoigne is similar in offering lots of on-the-ball quality

Difference being Iniesta had Busquets behind him while Gascoigne has Pirlo. Not the same by any stretch IMO.

 

[Jim Beam]

Tbf, I definitely wouldn't drop Gazza, he just rounds that midfield perfectly. Also, he wasn't just a pure playmaker, so with Pirlo and Hidegkuti there I would expect him to bring bite, hassle and all kind of different troubles to deal with. An all around (annoying) attacking package in his pomp and with Hidegkuti dropping deep I can see him attacking that channel inside. Lovely midfield, would easily beat some others in an all-time draft.

Quite fitting that Bepo of all people found him his real home.

 

[Gio]

Difference being Iniesta had Busquets behind him while Gascoigne has Pirlo. Not the same by any stretch IMO.

And we've also got Kante in our midfield, not the same by any stretch either.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

And we've also got Kante in our midfield, not the same by any stretch either.

Come on mate, that was a possession based team with very different off the ball dynamics.

As I said, we can discuss all day, but the outcome would be same. We won't agree

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Tbf, I definitely wouldn't drop Gazza, he just rounds that midfield perfectly. Also, he wasn't just a pure playmaker, so with Pirlo and Hidegkuti there I would expect him to bring bite, hassle and all kind of different troubles to deal with. An all around (annoying) attacking package in his pomp and with Hidegkuti dropping deep I can see him attacking that channel inside. Lovely midfield, would easily beat some others in an all-time draft.

Quite fitting that Bepo of all people found him his real home.

To makes things clearer, I don't mind the midfield as well. A Shevchenko there instead of Hidegkuti would be how I would build it. But I guess we all can't think the same way.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Will be away for a couple of hours, but before I go, just a funny bit of stat that I came across while looking at the possible real life head to head stats before the game.

Berti Vogts and Jupp Heynckes played against each other 5 times.

Vogts managed to score 4 goals while Heynckes scored only 1 in those 5 outings.

At first I thought it was the other way round as one would expect and almost shit my pants

 

[Gio]

Will be away for a couple of hours, but before I go, just a funny bit of stat that I came across while looking at the possible real life head to head stats before the game.

Berti Vogts and Jupp Heynckes played against each other 5 times.

Vogts managed to score 4 goals while Heynckes scored only 1 in those 5 outings.

At first I thought it was the other way round as one would expect and almost shit my pants

Aye, spotted that as well. All 4 assists from Netzer too.

 

[Gio]

SUITABILITY OF THE WM FORMATION AGAINST A 4-3-3​

If I was to choose a cherrypick a formation to play against a 4-3-3 with pacey wide forwards who were deadly on the counter attack, I think the 3-2-2-3 would be bottom of the list. The best system to play against a wide front three is a back four which provides the extra man as cover. Alternatively, a well organised 3-5-2 with proper wing-backs who can shuffle into the defensive line can offer some tactical resistance. Importantly both formations enable defensive cover and defensive width, never of which are present in GSTQ's shape here.

Going for man-for-man in a 3v3 is suicidal as this is the typical outcome:



This is the sort of nightmare scenario facing the centre-halves every time they have to defend:

There is a reason it has only been tried once in recent history at the top level and had disastrous consequences.

The WM was created in the 1920s and largely phased out by the 1950s for these same reasons. The centre-halves cannot each cover 25 yards of horizontal space, the space behind them and the space up most of the flanks as well. It's simply impossible.



This is how you try and deal with a top class wide forward like Mbappe. Real Madrid employed a back 4 against PSG's front 3 and, although he still gets a goal, every time Mbappe received the ball Real doubled up on him. They were able to do that because they were defensive in their approach, compact in their shape and could shuffle bodies across from 5 yards away. Are those factors present here?

• defensive approach? No - an ultra-attacking 3-2-2-3 with a midfield comprised of 3 attack-minded South Americans and 1 beleagured Scot
• compact? No - one of the least compact systems around, with acres of space either side of the midfield
• shuffle bodies in to help out? No - the lack of compactness means the wingers are too far away to help out. And neither of the central midfielders have any experience of playing in defence, which might have made the system click.

I love the boldness of the move and the creativity of the idea. But in any real game against a counter-attacking and pitch-stretching 4-3-3 there is surely only one outcome.

 

[Jim Beam]

There is a reason it has only been tried once in recent history at the top level and had disastrous consequences.

Nope, Barcelona played a lot with this idea in 2014/15 and relatively successfully. It also shifted what was pretty much a 3-5-2 in the defensive phase.

Not sure GS will act the same way, just saying.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Nope, Barcelona played a lot with this idea in 2014/15 and relatively successfully. It also shifted what was pretty much a 3-5-2 in the defensive phase.

Not sure GS will act the same way, just saying.

will let gio debate but can you please send links/lineups to those games

 

[Jim Beam]

will let gio debate but can you please send links/lineups to those games

Just searched, my bad and apologies, it was 3-2-3-2. Against PSG in CL for example in a big game winning 3-1 that season.

Starting lineup:

----Bartra-----Pique----Mathieu-----
-----Busquets----Mascherano-------
--Pedro------Iniesta-------Neymar---
---------Messi-----Suarez-----------

A bit different dynamics than here though.

 

[Gio]

Just searched, my bad and apologies, it was 3-2-3-2. Against PSG in CL for example in a big game winning 3-1 that season.

Starting lineup:

----Bartra-----Pique----Mathieu-----
-----Busquets----Mascherano-------
--Pedro------Iniesta-------Neymar---
---------Messi-----Suarez-----------

A bit different dynamics than here though.

Different dynamics indeed. And what I was getting at with Mascherano’s role enabling the back 4 by dropping into the centre of defence. In any case, the vast majority of those experimentations were in domestic games against weaker opposition. When up against big teams in big games, is what Michael Cox had to say about it:

Bayern go 3 v 3

From the outset, it was obvious Guardiola had selected a three-man defence – like against Dortmund, Rafinha lined up on the left of the trio. Theoretically, it’s useful to have a right-footer against Messi – although the Argentine would later prove he’s capable of beating defenders on the outside, too. Jerome Boateng was up against Luis Suarez, and Mehdi Benatia versus Neymar.

This was, of course, a huge risk against this Barcelona front three. When at Barcelona, Guardiola usually preferred to use a spare man in defence, providing a sweeper if any of his defenders were outwitted by opponents. Here, the risk was huge – if his defenders made a single mistake, or were beaten through trickery from Barca’s front three, the opposition were in on goal. It seemed a hugely dangerous tactic.

Guardiola had to abandon the system after 15 minutes, such was the chaos it generated.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

For me, taking that one Bayern/Barcelona game to rule a formation out completely is unfair.

For starters, Bayern had a 34 year old Alonso and 33 year old Lahm in midfield ahead of the 3 man defense. That is not a great start. Compared to that, Cerezo and Bremner is way more solid.

And if you notice that game, Suarez was playing the dedicated No.9 role while Messi more often than not was playing on the right wing. Neymar was on the other wing.

When the creativity comes from wider areas, the WM runs the chance of becoming a liability, especially with a dedicated No.9 who can occupy more than one of the 3 CBs constantly. I don't think either of Mbappe or Heynckes add a lot of creative juice to your team. They are runners and there a 3 man defense has an obvious advantage shape wise.

Hidegkuti dropping deep more often than not is a boon in disguise for my team and that is one of the reasons the WM earned my faith for this encounter.

Either ways, not a fan of the argument that formation X can never work against formation Y. One needs to look at fits and match ups closely and decide.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

And neither of the central midfielders have any experience of playing in defence, which might have made the system click.

Err, Cerezo did drop in defense when both the wingbacks attacked in that Brazil '82 team. I'd probably have to revisit the footage to confirm. After looking for headers last game, looking for DMs dropping into defense would be a new low in research

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Its bed time for me, so will rejoin tomorrow. Good debate so far.

 

[Gio]

Err, Cerezo did drop in defense when both the wingbacks attacked in that Brazil '82 team. I'd probably have to revisit the footage to confirm. After looking for headers last game, looking for DMs dropping into defense would be a new low in research

I remember it more as dropping to pick up the ball and spraying it wide, rather than a Rijkaard-esque central defensive pillar. And either way I’d contend that Brazil 82 were one of the poorest of all at preventing counter attacks.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Socrates could run a game like this with Pirlo as the DLP. Littbarski could easily slot into a supporting role of making runs and Cerezo obviously doesn't need to be a playmaker. Can't see the opposition having enough firepower here to outscore or the type of defense to prevent the goals leaking in.