The state of this team since winning the League Cup

Ludens the Red

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As the title says. Honestly what the actual hell are these performances? tonight, against Newcastle, the second half last week, against Fulham and against Liverpool. All in the space of about six weeks.
Pretty much distinguishing any hope we may have had that this team was turning a corner. Still mentally weak, still throw in the towel when the going gets tough, still making stupid basic errors. The only decent performances coming against sides who will be playing in the Championship next season.

I’m confused as to why these players are carrying on like they are as if by winning the League Cup they completed football.

I know we have had injuries and suspensions but going back to being outfought to these levels just isn’t acceptable on any level. Do this on Sunday and Brighton will genuinely score 6.
 
It had the opposite effect, was supposed to give us confidence onto greater things
 
I don’t believe it’s the number of games. We just have too many below average players and even more worrying players with no spine.

Bruno is clearly our most important player and then with us losing our best CBs I can definitely see a fair few loses still to come, starting on Sunday. Brighton will have to be utter shite to not score for fun versus that back line.
 
mu4c_20le said:
It had the opposite effect, was supposed to give us confidence onto greater things
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This. Feels like the players are already thinking about their summer holiday destinations as majority of our performances since the cup final win have been rank rotten.
 
Our strength in depth is terrible. We didn’t rotate enough during that period because ETH knows how shite the back ups are.
 
We had a pox lucky run of draws to the cup fiinal , fair play for winning it. But since then we have been humiliated by Liverpool , Newcastle and now Sevilla.

We were supposed to grow as a squad after winning that cup , but we still look just a very average team who happened to win a minor cup competition.

This could easily by an Ole or Rangnick team.
 
A team struggling with injuries,
A team who have played a lot of matches.

Yet still been grinding out results, sit third in the table and still a chance for another cup final.

Arsenal haven't been blowing everyone away, up until recently City have been up and down.

It's called form, it comes and goes, it's part of football.
I think we've been dealing with a run of mediocre form pretty well which signifies good things ahead.
 
mu4c_20le said:
It had the opposite effect, was supposed to give us confidence onto greater things
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I think it allowed some complacency to set in, which is no surprise really given the mental makeup of some of these jokers.
 
once you reach the pinnacle of any field it can be hard to find the motivation to go again.
 
I also blame EtH and his "open letter" crap. Someone should've told him it's a bit embarrassing.
 
Quite a few mentioning fatigue. But take tonight, Martial has barely played all season, Sancho had a three month break for personal reasons. Eriksen has been injured, Casemiro has missed eight games in the last two months. Sabitzer wasn’t playing at Bayern.
Maguire and Lindelof haven’t been regulars..

It’s a phoney excuse. Easy excuse.
 
A decline was expected for me:

- Rashford is still our only goal threat - He scored in almost every game for a sustained period, but that has slowed now. It was always going to be an issue having only one goal scorer.
-The team is incredibly thin on quality. There is not much change needed to return to last seasons squad, so injuries are a massive issue.

Doesn't surprise me, really

Also, Martinez, Varane, Shaw, Rashford all injured or, pretty much, rushed back. Casemiro hasn't played much football recently with the red cards. Eriksen seems to still be getting match fitness after being out for a long time.
 
Ludens the Red said:
Quite a few mentioning fatigue. But take tonight, Martial has barely played all season, Sancho had a three month break for personal reasons. Eriksen has been injured, Casemiro has missed eight games in the last two months. Sabitzer wasn’t playing at Bayern.
Maguire and Lindelof haven’t been regulars..

It’s a phoney excuse. Easy excuse.
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What is their fitness like, though? Eriksen being injured isn't a rest. He has been out for months without training or exercise. It is essentially a reset putting him back to the start of summer training.

Casemiro should have been training, but he hasn't played many matches with those cards.

Sabitzer might just not be very good, but having no matches at Bayern probably points to him not being as fit as he should be.
 
There’s still a long way to go to get this team playing the way Ten Hag wants it. Imagine Pep trying to play with De Gea, AWB, Maguire and Weghorst.

The fact that Martinez had to come in from the Dutch league and looks absolutely levels above what we had in defence says it all. At this point, I’m convinced it is a mental issue for these players,
 
I just feel we have never been that good for long periods away from home. We had many great games at Old Trafford, but our away form been really bad vs the big sides.
 
Paul_Scholes18 said:
I just feel we have never been that good for long periods away from home. We had many great games at Old Trafford, but our away form been really bad vs the big sides.
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What I don't get is that one of our best performances this season was at the fecking Camp Nou. Teams have been known to lose the odd game there and yet we played fearlessly, with pace and confidence and stuff.

And then the rest of the away games against serious opposition were varying degrees of shite.
 
Lecland07 said:
What is their fitness like, though? Eriksen being injured isn't a rest. He has been out for months without training or exercise. It is essentially a reset putting him back to the start of summer training.

Casemiro should have been training, but he hasn't played many matches with those cards.

Sabitzer might just not be very good, but having no matches at Bayern probably points to him not being as fit as he should be.
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That’s a different matter though isn’t it. I specifically said fatigue as that was what people were mentioning.
 
People making too big of a deal of it. We've missed vital players for large stretches now (Casemiro, Shaw, Varane, Rashford, Martial, Eriksen, and now Martinez) and played more games than anyone else in club football in a weird winter world cup season. We also lack vital quality in key positions and especially depth in quality. When you realize that our first choice starting XI has probably played a total of 2 matches all year together it makes a bit more sense
 
The mentality of our squad aspect is the only real point worth honing in on really. When we start poorly, we collapse completely and tend to get battered. It's not normal to win 70% of your games and then the 10 games the season that we lost, we actually get battered in most of them. That's not our true level, but it is a mentality issue without a doubt.

We have had a good season, a trophy and top 4 constitutes a good season, and I genuinely think it is something that just comes with time. This season our best run came in that lead up to the League Cup final, where we did brilliantly in big games, did brilliantly home and away vs Barcelona, responded to going behind in some big games and came back to win, etc etc. And while it's not surprising for a team to take their foot off the pedal after something like that, it is still a concern, problem, something that needs fixing to ensure they keep going. Hell look at Liverpool the past few years, all the mentality monsters shit... Well they actually managed to keep winning relentlessly, week in and week out. That's very hard to do, even if ultimately they fell short of some other trophies.

We have very clearly dropped off after the league cup win, and certain environments are more favourable to play in compared to hostile, tough away games and it very clearly shows a split in the players as they play. It isn't easy to play twice a week every week with the expectation to win every game, and it's a mentality that needs building, getting that relentless machine like winning standard. I like how Ten Hag is doing it, but it is something only time and gradual improvements in the transfer windows will fix. But it is far better to managers who discard cups regularly to focus on a golden run in 1 competition in terms of long term growth IMO. It's part of why I was always so against Pochettino, but why I am so happy with Ten Hag even if we might get knocked out of the FA Cup too. He approaches every game with a winning mentality and expectation, and never drops the standards. Eventually, that'll get better and better with the squad. But year 1, plenty of gaps in the squad, tough fixture list, first time really having the "win trophy and succeed in the league" expectation with this squad, so it's not a huge surprise. The few who are used to it can't carry the others who need to learn it. Some are capable of learning, others just need replacing.
 
Last couple of months have not been great but honestly we are not a much different side than last season. Erik has only had 1 real window to work in as I don't consider sub standard loan players part of any long term plan and so of course there is a lot more work to be done. I think the second leg against Sevilla was the last stop for some of the deadwood and that can only be a good thing. Lot of talk now about a proper clearout and more importantly a recognition that we should cash in on some of our youth players when they are ascending in the way that City and Chelsea do. Movement out, hopefully supported by a change in ownership (please God) and we might see some real strides made this summer.

I still believe Erik is the right man and better days are ahead, top 4 and a trophy one year on from the debacle of the Ragnick era is still some achievement and the only way is up, unless you are Maguire and DDG in which case the only way is out please.
 
They have a "I did it" moment and have stopped caring since then.
Truly "Carabao cup winners" mindset, if you ask me
 
Luke Shaw said himself a few days after the final. The standards dropped after winning it. Absolutely pathetic from some of the players.
 
fallengt said:
They have a "I did it" moment and have stopped caring since then.
Truly "Carabao cup winners" mindset, if you ask me
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Maybe for players like Fred or Maguire. But how can Casemiro have that mindset? His performance is really baffling to me
 
fallengt said:
They have a "I did it" moment and have stopped caring since then.
Truly "Carabao cup winners" mindset, if you ask me
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It is a case of something that needs to be built collectively over time. Ten Hag is clearly laying out the expectations that every single competition is a priority - which I like. It leads to tough periods for the players, tough for them to keep that winning standard and focus even if some players have had it and others haven't, but generally speaking it gets developed over time. Would fully expect to see big steps next season in even just dealing with expectations in terms of keeping winning runs and then playing those big away games after a big run. We were impressive mentally in terms of maintaining it until the league cup final, but after that there was an obvious drop off which is both understandable and unacceptable and something that needs addressing. But it's not exactly a surprise. Guys like Gary Neville and Rio don't say that title wins are very difficult for no reason. You gotta relentless keep winning when the pressure is on, and you still have to succeed in the cups. It takes time, with or without signings, for that collective mentality to be there.
 
pratyush_utd said:
Maybe for players like Fred or Maguire. But how can Casemiro have that mindset? His performance is really baffling to me
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It's a collective group thing. One player can't carry others - a collective winning standard has to be set and that just takes time. It never just comes in right away. Ten Hag has expectations for every single game, and while that is mentally wearing and draining, it is what is required to reach the top. We don't have it yet, which is natural given our past 10 years. You can't just buy players who have done it and expect your collective to now understand it. It is still a group of 25+ who need the belief and trust in each other while knowing how to play as a team every 3/4 days over the entire season. Only time can fix that, no amount of transfers can fix that without time.
 
pratyush_utd said:
Maybe for players like Fred or Maguire. But how can Casemiro have that mindset? His performance is really baffling to me
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No Casemiro is fine. Not back to his best yet but he will be. He gets rusty and he was obviously upset by his red cards. It will take a few games to get all that out of his system. He is a proper winner.
 
This is how it all starts. Next season we will win the FA cup (we’re going to get a good beating this season first). Then we will win the Europa League (after a dismal CL group stage). After that we will the CL due to have become a cup team and finally we will the premier league after a complete dominant attacking display obliterating every opponent.

Or the next 4 years will be like the past 10 years, some great moments interchanged with mediocre to awful performances
 
We really should of won the Europa, lets be honest here, but as i said after the League cup final, we are still very fragile and weak mentally.
I said we wont win anyhting else we are in because the mantality of the players will be 'we won this, thats a good season for us'.

Clockwork and gauranteed.
 
Ten Hag playing 4D chess, slow the progress down, kill the excitement, and then the glazers will feck off.
 
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